Catholic Charismatic Renewal

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Julia,

I’m perfectly in agreement with what you say above. The fact that you DIDN’T SAY the Holy Spirit can come “in a whisper” is the reason I added it. The balance was needed, IMO, to make the conversation more accurate. I’m all for discernment; for people with and without charismatic experiences. I was speaking in favor of the Charismatic Renewal. But, I also want to speak for those Catholics that are not moved by the Holy Spirit in this way. I can accept people different than myself. I can be friends with those who will also accept me being different than they.

MonFrere
Of course.
We move in all kind of circles not just charismatic ones.The Holy Spirit moves in many wonderous ways.Like Wind and Fire he moves and spreads as He wills and no one can tell Him who to bless or touch with His Fire. Amen!
 
A friend of mine who is also a priest once went to a charismatic meeting when on an out-of-town visit dressed in street clothes (i.e., incognito). This particular group of charismatics regularly met in the parish hall of a Catholic Church, and I can only assume that the members present would claim to be Catholic. He told me that he stood up and uttered what he knew to be gibberish, and after he finished “uttering” the group leader interpreted what he had said.
Anyone claiming to be Catholic should pray with the utmost fervor about this movement. They should ask themselves why they feel the need for emotionalist props.
 
I am completely open to what is true no matter if it requires me to step out of my comfort zone. And the more jump and shout congregations are truly out of my comfort zone. My concern is that when it comes to the congregations that are like that, I wonder how much is actually brought on by the Holy Spirit or how much is emotion that is brought about by the crowds with that type of personality. I see the same type of display by secular crowds, whether it’s concerts, political special interest groups, parties, etc. I’m trying to understand, but this is my hang up. I wonder how much the different kinds of congregations that are like I mentioned are based upon personalities and people gravitating to what fits their style. Personally for me I would be the type of person that if I was at a party I would be the one who looks for the spot that allows me to keep a low profile, while those who are more into the action would be out there having it going on. Does that make sense? I remember one time when I was at work and one guy who was a little wild was working and all of a sudden he starting shouting and jumping around, he was full of energy and was just carrying on. One church going guy looked at me and said, “I’ve seen people do that when they were filled with the Holy Spirit.” That hit me and made me think that maybe some of the things that people say was caused by the Holy Spirit may not be the Holy Spirit but maybe just an adrenaline rush.
You sound like my long lost twin brother 🙂

I was surrounded by that type at Steubenville and I love them all dearly but I would be a hermit before acting that way.
 
Ever since I converted to the Church I’ve occasionally tried to understand this movement, but I’ve never done any hard research on it, I get a little motivated to and then my ADD kicks in and I lose interest very quickly. Everything I’ve ever looked at shows that there are some mention of it and credit given to it, but everything I’ve read is so obscure concerning how much creedence it has from the Church. I’ve spent years as a Southern Baptist debating tongues with Pentecostals, and I have an understanding now what the Church Fathers have said on it, but I am afraid to speak with total certainty because I know little about how the Church really stands. I know that trustworthy Catholic apologists feel the same as I do, but I’m not sure if they have a full grasp on it either. And when I see the quotes that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal sites have from Popes and Cardinals, their quotes don’t convince me either because the mention of “renewal” does not mean that the Pope is talking about the actual movement, or a movement in general.

I’d sure like some developed thoughts on this! Thanks!
For an historical perspective on this, I would recommend Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit: Evidence from the First Eight Centuries by Kilian McDonnell and George T. Montague. They are a pair of Catholic scholars who have researched the origins of the movement back to the earliest days of the Church. It is an authentic Catholic experience which is often misunderstood. The book is available from Amazon and many Catholic booksellers.
 
A friend of mine who is also a priest once went to a charismatic meeting when on an out-of-town visit dressed in street clothes (i.e., incognito). This particular group of charismatics regularly met in the parish hall of a Catholic Church, and I can only assume that the members present would claim to be Catholic. He told me that he stood up and uttered what he knew to be gibberish, and after he finished “uttering” the group leader interpreted what he had said.
Anyone claiming to be Catholic should pray with the utmost fervor about this movement. They should ask themselves why they feel the need for emotionalist props.
Sorry-second hand stories don’t impress me.
I don’t NEED emotionalist props- but who said that having an emotional response to God was a bad thing? Does taking the Eucharist move and stir you. Does the Mass elate you.?Do the sacraments enliven you- make you rejoice?Do the calm you , succour you? these are all emotionsGod shoildn’t just be an intellectual experience.
. David danced rapturously in front of the Ark. His wife Michal was punished for her disgust of his ardor.
.ie incognito- that means he went in with an agenda.
I wonder how many people would be horrified ,if they were present, at some of the ecstatic experiences of the saints or of some of their other eccentricities?
 
I must admit that the tone and the arguments used in most of the posts of this thread puzzled me. The fact that one has not had a first hand experience of a charismatic prayer should not lead to shun it. Moreover, every serious believer should consider what the Bible teaches about the charisms given by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12-14 is a good start). It appears that the charismatic dimension is not an experience of immature and young Christian looking for emotional vibes but the very natural (I should write supernatural) life of a baptized person.
The attitude that the Church teaches us to adopt towards charisms is gratitude, not scorn:
CCC 800: “Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms
 
Sorry-second hand stories don’t impress me.
I don’t NEED emotionalist props- but who said that having an emotional response to God was a bad thing? Does taking the Eucharist move and stir you. Does the Mass elate you.?Do the sacraments enliven you- make you rejoice?Do the calm you , succour you? these are all emotionsGod shoildn’t just be an intellectual experience.
. David danced rapturously in front of the Ark. His wife Michal was punished for her disgust of his ardor.
.ie incognito- that means he went in with an agenda.
I wonder how many people would be horrified ,if they were present, at some of the ecstatic experiences of the saints or of some of their other eccentricities?
I was active in the Carismatic renewl from the mid '90 up to around 2002. Children have kept us too busy to devote the time to a prayer group. Wel that and the Airport commision bought out the Parish that the prayer group met in and scattered us to the 4 winds. I am one that would not be involved if it was not ok with the Church. I’ve found it healing to my emotions, and body and soul.
Most healing services I’ve attended had a priest present to administer the anointing of the sick for those who needed the grace.
I agree, after my involvement in the Renewal I found more and more about the Saints showing many of the “Gifts” as they called it.
Are the some who go in a wrong direction with it? I’m sure there are, but they also ignore the Churches teachings on it.
 
I have three problems with the “charismatic” movement that I’ve never seen addressed.
  1. If these are truly “gifts of the Spirit”, why did the Holy Spirit decide to wait 1900 years and then lavish them on a bunch of Protestants before they came into the Catholic Church? The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, the SOLE vehicle of salvation - all graces non-Catholics can receive still come through the Catholic Church. When Protestants started speaking in tongues around 1900, the best and certainly the safest explanation is that the Devil got lazy (as usual) and revived the Montanist heresy - and I’ll side with the Church Fathers who attributed Montanist glossolalia to demons.
  2. The loss of freedom experienced by people who find themselves unable to speak English while they are speaking in tongues - even for periods of several days or more - isn’t something the Holy Spirit does. God always, always respects human freedom. (The first person to start speaking in tongues, a 4-year-old Protestant girl who started speaking Chinese, was unable to speak English for several days and had to communicate in English through writing. Somehow her sect thought that was God’s doing and became the Pentecostals.)
  3. The emotionalism. True prayer is always oriented towards contemplation. If you go to a Tridentine Mass or Byzantine Divine Liturgy, the music, incense, liturgical actions, and environment raise the soul up to ecstasy WITHOUT impeding it from praying in a meditative fashion. But you can’t pray at a rock concert; the emotions are ordered in such a way as to impede the noetic part of the soul from “lifting up to the Lord”. It may be fun, but it’s not religion.
 
It appears that the charismatic dimension is not an experience of immature and young Christian looking for emotional vibes but the very natural (I should write supernatural) life of a baptized person.
I’ve experienced charismatics as a Protestant and as a Catholic. My experience tells me that, as a rule, Protestant charismatics, are a very undisciplined lot. I’ve also noted that Catholics who are charismatic, have a better chance of being some discipline via spiritual direction. I still contend that it’s always best to have spiritual direction in your life - charismatic or not. But, when charismatics lack direction they often run into traps. Some become judgmental of those who are not charismatic. I think a great charismatic was St. Faustina. I read her autobiography (Diary). What she experienced was absolutely amazing. YET, she had a great and wise spiritual director - in fact, she had to take some time to find the spiritual director she needed. So, as juliamajor said, some of the saints had profound charismatic experiences. But, something that St. Faustina taught me is that it wasn’t the experience that she sought - it was the LORD that she sought. I know the point that some make when they bring up that God doesn’t want cold intellectualism - yet, some people need those profound spiritual insights to “move” them. This is the way God works with some individuals. Other people are “moved” by charismatic experiences. These I do not experience - BUT my reaction is that if I needed them God would provide them. I must be content with how God is leading me to heaven. If the Church approves of the Charismatic Renewal - then I accept it; even without “experiencing” it. I remember Fr. John McCloskey speak of something he didn’t particularly identify with – he simply said - this isn’t everyone’s “cup of tea”. I learned from that the lesson that I don’t have to like everything - but I do not have to reject those who may be different than myself - just accept them as different. This has made my life much simpler than trying to figure everything out. Look at Mother Mary – today we celebrate her Immaculate Conception. How many people in scripture were afraid of angels when they came into their presence. EVERYONE. NOT our Blessed Mother. She wasn’t afraid of the angel - even the Archangel Gabriel – she was afraid OF THE GREETING. Even the great apostle John in his vision of Revelation bowed before the angel in his vision because of the awesome presence; but not Our Lady. Now THAT is a pretty heavy duty charism – one fit for one immaculately conceived.

MonFrere
 
I have three problems with the “charismatic” movement that I’ve never seen addressed.
  1. If these are truly “gifts of the Spirit”, why did the Holy Spirit decide to wait 1900 years and then lavish them on a bunch of Protestants before they came into the Catholic Church? The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, the SOLE vehicle of salvation - all graces non-Catholics can receive still come through the Catholic Church. When Protestants started speaking in tongues around 1900, the best and certainly the safest explanation is that the Devil got lazy (as usual) and revived the Montanist heresy - and I’ll side with the Church Fathers who attributed Montanist glossolalia to demons.
  2. The loss of freedom experienced by people who find themselves unable to speak English while they are speaking in tongues - even for periods of several days or more - isn’t something the Holy Spirit does. God always, always respects human freedom. (The first person to start speaking in tongues, a 4-year-old Protestant girl who started speaking Chinese, was unable to speak English for several days and had to communicate in English through writing. Somehow her sect thought that was God’s doing and became the Pentecostals.)
  3. The emotionalism. True prayer is always oriented towards contemplation. If you go to a Tridentine Mass or Byzantine Divine Liturgy, the music, incense, liturgical actions, and environment raise the soul up to ecstasy WITHOUT impeding it from praying in a meditative fashion. But you can’t pray at a rock concert; the emotions are ordered in such a way as to impede the noetic part of the soul from “lifting up to the Lord”. It may be fun, but it’s not religion.
As I did some research on Montanism, I found a quote from St. Irenaeus, that helps answer your first question:

“Others, in order that they may frustrate the gift of the Spirit, which in the last days has been poured upon the human race according to the good pleasure of the Father, do not admit that form which corresponds with the Gospel of John in which the Lord promised to send the Paraclete; but they reject the Gospel and with it the prophetic Spirit. Unhappy, indeed, in that, wishing to have no false prophets, they drive away the grace of prophecy from the Church; resembling persons who, to avoid those who come in hypocrisy, withdraw from communion even with brethren.”

According to St. Irenaeus, the church became so wary of false prophets in this time that they began to even reject the true prophets that were in the Church. Hence the gifts of the Spirit began to be rejected.

I hope that helps to understand why the gifts went in disuse for so long.
 
I have three problems with the “charismatic” movement that I’ve never seen addressed.
  1. If these are truly “gifts of the Spirit”, why did the Holy Spirit decide to wait 1900 years and then lavish them on a bunch of Protestants before they came into the Catholic Church? The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, the SOLE vehicle of salvation - all graces non-Catholics can receive still come through the Catholic Church. When Protestants started speaking in tongues around 1900, the best and certainly the safest explanation is that the Devil got lazy (as usual) and revived the Montanist heresy - and I’ll side with the Church Fathers who attributed Montanist glossolalia to demons.
  2. The loss of freedom experienced by people who find themselves unable to speak English while they are speaking in tongues - even for periods of several days or more - isn’t something the Holy Spirit does. God always, always respects human freedom. (The first person to start speaking in tongues, a 4-year-old Protestant girl who started speaking Chinese, was unable to speak English for several days and had to communicate in English through writing. Somehow her sect thought that was God’s doing and became the Pentecostals.)
  3. The emotionalism. True prayer is always oriented towards contemplation. If you go to a Tridentine Mass or Byzantine Divine Liturgy, the music, incense, liturgical actions, and environment raise the soul up to ecstasy WITHOUT impeding it from praying in a meditative fashion. But you can’t pray at a rock concert; the emotions are ordered in such a way as to impede the noetic part of the soul from “lifting up to the Lord”. It may be fun, but it’s not religion.
  1. I wouldn’t haphazardly attribute charismatic gifts to demonic activity. I think that a better question is why they stopped in the first place. Also I would give this article by Peter Kreeft a read before dismissing something simply because it is protestant in recent origin. peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism/ecumenism_transcription.htm#4
  2. I have not met a orthodox charismatic who lost freedom. Look at this in a less simplistic light. Many of the prophets spoke of how the word of God welled up inside of them and how they could not keep silent. Did they lose their freedom? Obviously the devil perverts the things of God, but that doesn’t mean that those things are bad, if anything it means that they are a good.
  3. First of all, you can too pray at a rock concert. I have. There are many artists like U2 that despite the imperfection of their theology still have a grasp on the heart of the truth of the human person and desire. Charismatic gifts are not opposed to contemplation. To think so is to completely misunderstand what they are. Regardless of whether or not you think that they are happening now, they did happen in the bible. Are you saying that the apostles were not praying in a real way?
The reality is that emotion is not separate from the experience of God. Compare it to marital love. Usually marriage is the result of an emotional experience of falling in love. The love itself is not emotion, but that does not mean that it is opposed to emotion. Love is an action, a choice, something greater than emotion. But it is not meant to be completely separate from emotion. Emotion properly understood is meant to flow with love. When you feel in love, it is a good thing. A proper thing. When you don’t feel in love, you still love anyways. Love does not depend on emotion, but emotion acts in cooperation with love. Emotion adds something to our understanding and experience of love. Just ask any married couple. To think that you will have a faith separate from emotion is not only silly, it reflects a pride and a fear of being taken in by God. It reflects a lack of true trust in God.
 
I grew up in a ‘mini’ charismatic environment. Not as big as on that video that was shown a few posts ago. That was sorta before my time. I can say that going to Spirit filled prayer meetings were some of the best times of my life and I miss them. I don’t know why they stopped in our church. I think it may be because that generation that led the movement has gotten older. I moved away to go to university but eventually moved back. I would like to say that I always had a strong faith after that but I went through some rocky times.

I had kind of drifted away somewhat but it was actually listening to Catholic radio that helped me become more interested in the Catholic faith. In the last few years I have been growing stronger in my Catholic faith and have been learning more about the teachings of the church. I have started going to regular confession and have become interested in learning catholic teachings and the history of the church. I think there has been a kind of a movement in the church away from confession and have noticed now that I am going that a lot of people don’t seem to go anymore. The line is usually quite short on Saturday night. The last time I went to confession I felt a real joy of the Lord there and couldn’t help but to smile. I really believe there is a special anointing at that sacrament. I’m kind of like a sponge right now and can’t get enough Catholic information. I guess I’m a ‘theologian’ at heart.🙂

I was only a teenager at the time of the ‘charismatic’ prayer meetings but If I had to sum up my experience it would be that the prayer meeting was a place where one could gradually open up their heart to God. There was a physical presence of the Holy Spirit. It was a place where people could open up to the Lord and walls were dropped and people experienced his presence and love. It was also a place where relationships with other Catholics were formed. I am kind of a reserved, shy person by nature. So for me to open up and sing in public was no small feat and could only have come from God.

One thing it really instilled in me was a love for the Lord and for others. I had grown in my relationship with the Lord so that when I did go through some rocky times later on, and almost losing faith completely, I could never bring myself to completely abandon my faith because I knew that I could not simply forget God or the relationship that I had. I had some reason to continue to believe. It wasn’t just all some intellectual or emotional pursuit but I had been touched on a spiritual level.

God Bless
 
The spiritual gifts experienced in Charismatic prayer groups are Scriptural, as St. Paul eneumerates in 1 Cor. Chapters 12 and 14. In chapter 12 he states that it is the Spirit who gives gifts, (1 Cor 12:1-3 and 4-11) and reminds them that this is for the good (edifying) of the Body of Christ in the body of the chapter. From verse 27 onward that there is a hierarchy and order to the administration and use of gifts in the Church, and that not all member of the Church have the same gifts. In Chapter 13 we have the famous discourse on Love, which is to be the source and guide in living the faith and in which all gifts must operate by God’s grace. Then in verse 1 Cor. 14, verse 1 Paul encourages the Corinthian Church to “pursue love and strive for the spritual gifts…”. In verse 21 - 29 he discusses “tongues”, noting that outsiders will think individuals “out of their mind” whom they hear speaking in tongues without interpretation, and therefore exhorts the Church to do everything “properly and in order”. He states further “do not forbid speaking in tongues” in verse 39. When one steps back and views more fully Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, however, several things become apparent. He has been exhorting this Church at length prior to this discussion on the proper use and application of these spiritual gifts for their immaturity (in chapter 3 verse 1 and 2) and states that he must speak to them “not as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh and infants in Christ”. There are incidences of spiritual pride (1 Cor. chapters 1 and 2), serious immorality in their midst (1 Cor. chapter 5 verse 1), and other imbalances in regard to their attitude toward eating meat that was sacrificed to idols (ch. 9). What is most telling in regard to this immorality and imbalance is enumerated by St. Paul in chapters 10 and 11 a failure in the manner in which they receive the Holy Eucharist, to discern the body of Christ (the True Presence; and sacrilege in their manner of receiving the Holy Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ including failure to properly examine themselves first (through Holy Confession) (1 Cor 11:27-30), which has had fatal consequences among the members of the Corinthian Church, who have “eaten and drunk” judgement upon themselves in so doing, (verse 29) resulting even in illness and death by some (verse 30).

I have had much personal experience with some Charismatic Catholics, and there is much that is good and beautiful in their enthusiasm for Christ. However, I also observed a great deal of spiritual pride, immaturity and emphasis of the operation of these lesser gifts (St. Paul speaks of “speaking in tongues” as the “least” of the gifts In 1 Cor. 12 verse 30 Paul’s words convey that not everyone has all the gifts. Though the prayer group I attended insisted that everyone should speak in tongues as a sign that they have received “the baptism of the Holy Spirit”, St. Paul contradicts this with his questions; “do all work miracles? Do all posses gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues?”. I will not here debate the use of the term “baptism in the Holy Spirit” other than to say that in Ephesians 4:5 he states there is “ONE Baptism”. (By water and the spirit which is cleary stated elsewhere in Scripture). God’s Holy Spirit fills and comes upon us in many ways and times (through prayer, during receipt of the Sacraments), but this does not replace our original Baptism nor convey “salvation” as many Charismatics I have witness state. The highest form of union with the Holy Spirit is decidedly and emphatically experienced by proper receipt and disposition of the Sacraments including Baptism, Reconciliation, Mass and the Holy Eucharist. Yet I repeatedly heard the emphasis being placed on lesser gifts such as prophesy, visions, tongues, and being “slain in the Spirit”. At least in the Charismatic groups I have witnessed personally, there was a mis-focus toward seeking spiritual consolations which the Saints (John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, for example) warn us against. The devil can imitate these experiences easily, as many of the Saints will attest to who had false apparations of Mary, Jesus, or their Spiritual Directors (St. Padre Pio and St. Dominic for example). I personally witnessed many false “words of knowlege” given to individuals that later proved false, and which at times were even contrary to Church Teaching (such as one woman who told another woman that her son who had died (and who was separated from the Church and had not been to Confession or received the Last Rites) was in Heaven, not Purgatory, and she didn’t need therefore to pray for his soul.) This is why a solid Spiritual Director to oversee Charismatic groups would be helpful for discernment and for keeping the focus on the receipt of the Holy Sacraments for the deepest possible communion with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
The charismatic renewal has been birthed by the Holy Spirit. To those who ignore it, it started as an answer to the prayers and wish of Leon XIII.

Between 1895 and 1903, Sister (now Blessed) Elena Guerra, foundress of the Oblate Sisters of The Holy Spirit in Italy, wrote 12 confidential letters to Pope Leo XIII, asking that he foster devotion in the church to the Holy Spirit. As a result, the Pope published his encyclical on the Holy Spirit Divinum Illud Munus in 1897. He also sent a private letter to all bishops, prescribing that the Novena for Pentecost be prayed at the dawn of the new 20th century. Another important event, again at the request of Sr. Elena, took place on January 1, 1901. Pope Leo XIII invoked the Holy Spirit by singing the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus, in the name of the entire Church. Also on that very day, halfway around the world in Topeka, Kansas, at the Bethel College and Bible School, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit occurred which is generally accepted as the beginning of Pentecostalism.
 
I have had much personal experience with some Charismatic Catholics, and there is much that is good and beautiful in their enthusiasm for Christ. However, I also observed a great deal of spiritual pride, immaturity and emphasis of the operation of these lesser gifts (St. Paul speaks of “speaking in tongues” as the “least” of the gifts In 1 Cor. 12 verse 30 Paul’s words convey that not everyone has all the gifts.
This reflects my point. Charismatics are like the rest of us; sinners seeking God.

MonFrere
 
As I did some research on Montanism, I found a quote from St. Irenaeus, that helps answer your first question:

“Others, in order that they may frustrate the gift of the Spirit, which in the last days has been poured upon the human race according to the good pleasure of the Father, do not admit that form which corresponds with the Gospel of John in which the Lord promised to send the Paraclete; but they reject the Gospel and with it the prophetic Spirit. Unhappy, indeed, in that, wishing to have no false prophets, they drive away the grace of prophecy from the Church; resembling persons who, to avoid those who come in hypocrisy, withdraw from communion even with brethren.”

According to St. Irenaeus, the church became so wary of false prophets in this time that they began to even reject the true prophets that were in the Church. Hence the gifts of the Spirit began to be rejected.

I hope that helps to understand why the gifts went in disuse for so long.
That is interesting. Thank you.
 
I’m the same way. In fact I go a step farther and try to avoid parties like the plague.

You don’t have to jump around at a Charismatic meeting. With my arthritis I couldn’t even if I was prone to do so. However, I didn’t jump around even when I was younger and healthier.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa is a Charismatic and I’ve never seen him jump around. (When I used to attend the prayer meetings he led he was too busy playing the mandolin to jump around. :))
From my experience I would say that jumping around could in some cases be simply a response to a stimulus or a relief of a stress. My experience, from prayer meetings, is that I would be tired or feeling a certain way but when I got into the prayer meeting and could sense the presence of the Lord these burdens would seem to lift off me. (‘my burden is light’). I am somewhat reserved so I would rarely be jumping around but I can see how someone who is not reserved could feel an elevated energy level and be more expressive like that. There could be some genuine experiences but also some not so genuine experiences where these activities could be more contrived. I’ve seen people jump up and down and act all crazy on various Christian TV programs and wonder if they think God will hear them more if they do this. There are also different styles of worship in different churches.
 
Check out “yeslord.com”. Also, there is a Vatican sponsord and endorsed “Fraternity of Charismatic Communties and Fellowships”. This fraternity is under the authority of Rome and is a protection for all concerned.

Too many folks are uninformed or have had bad experiences with those who are immature in their faith, Catholic, Catholic charismatic or whatever. There are many folks who do not know how to share and explain their spiritual experiences and growth in a way that does not drive others away. This includes converts to Catholicism, other denominations, etc.
 
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