Catholic Church and freemasonary?

[PeterClatworthy]

Deal with the issue Ed.

Repeating lies based upon an amoebic level of knowledge about Free Masonrie, Freemasonry, and freemasonry does not help. I am here to answer questions about Freemasonry per se for the benefit of the Catholic members of this form, I will not assist you to tell them lies, misinformation, disinformation and to make excuses for wickedness.

The FACT of the matter is that the answer to this thread is as follows:

It is forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church for a Roman Catholic to become a Moderns freemason, and for good reason.

The reason is because the Moderns form of freemasonry, (that is your American form of freemasonry, as well as your founders’ Moderns form of freemasonry in England) is a “naturalistic religion” based upon Baruch Spinoza’s Enlightenment philosophy of “Deus sive natura”.

This philosophy, the Rosicrucian philosophy that God is “a welding of the spiritual and the humanist” is anti-Christian; Anti-Judaic; and anti-Islamic which all require a belief in God the Creator and the Preserver of Heaven and Earth and of all things. It also requires a belief in the immortality of the soul.

Your philosophy, the philosophy of ALL Moderns Free and Accepted Masons, denies God’s Creation and encourages Catholic men to join in wordship to a God in consoirt with others who believe in “A supreme being”.

Now stop boring me and others here by your diversionary tactics aimed at discrediting somebody who knows EXACTLY what your freemasonry is up to so that you do not have to answer the legitimate charges laid against your freemasonry.

Deal with the issue.

Ancient Free and Accepted Masonry, a product of the Enlightenment - “Deus sive natura” - “A supreme being” (apparently there is more than one).

This is the current list of those faiths and religions that ban or condemn the Moderns form of freemasonry:

Celtic Christian Church
Roman Catholic Church
Synod Anglican Church of England
Synod Australian Anglican Church
Methodist Church of England
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Presbyterian Church of Ireland
Reformed Presbyterian Church
Presbyterian Church in America
Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
Salvation Army
Wesleyan Methodist Church
Church of Scotland
Baptist Union of Scotland
Free Church of Scotland
Russian Orthodox Church
Assemblies of God
Church of the Nazarene
Evangelical Mennonite Church
Grace Brethren
Christian Reformed Church in America
Independent Fundamentalist Churches of America
The Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Their opinion, I simply agree with them.

Deal with the issue Ed, for the benefit of all Catholics here.

1. may a Buddhist be a freemason in your Grand Lodge, Ed?

And this DEMANDS an answer:

1. may a Wiccan be a freemason in your Grand Lodge, Ed?

Yes or no to each one will do. Listen carefully folks!

 

[masonicinfo]

Deal with the issue Ed.

Repeating lies based upon an amoebic level of knowledge about Free Masonrie, Freemasonry, and freemasonry does not help. I am here to answer questions about Freemasonry per se for the benefit of the Catholic members of this form, I will not assist you to tell them lies, misinformation, disinformation and to make excuses for wickedness.

Ooooogga - Booogggaaaa… I’m sure everyone’s just tingling now. Of course, if you weren’t so intent on trying to pretend that your own little group with but a handful of members (if that) was something that was different - and OK for them - then you might have a modicum of credibility.

Now to put the facts in perspective, The Holy See surely has no problem with your group BY NAME. However, by its trappings (a “secret order” and a “holy priesthood” - a description you yourself have used to describe it) is SURELY quite objectionable. Or, perhaps, you have no secrets in your group.

Wait: you won’t even divulge the number of MEMBERS! Guess we can see where that ends up, eh?

Oh, and I should mention too that for the first three years and ten months of your group’s existence (up to just two months ago), you were quite pleased to use the appellation of “Freemasonry” regularly and consistently. It’s only in the past sixty or so days that you’ve decided to adopt this “Free Masonrie” foolishness - even though I’d readily argue that you weren’t any kind of Freemasonry (in whatever spelling you wish) at any point.

The FACT of the matter is that the answer to this thread is as follows:

It is forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church for a Roman Catholic to become a Moderns freemason, and for good reason.

Perhaps you’ll be so good enough as to provide some evidence of your authority to speak on behalf of the Catholic Church?

Oh, you can’t. Ah…

<snip of irrelevant prattling - as usual!>

Deal with the issue Ed, for the benefit of all Catholics here.

1. may a Buddhist be a freemason in your Grand Lodge, Ed?

My Grand Lodge does not ask the religion of a petitioner, simply that he have a belief in a Supreme Being.

It’s quite simple, as you should well know - having been an EMPLOYEE of the organization you now castigate. What’s particularly comical is that this is SO very much like the fired restaurant dishwasher who goes on to the Internet to rail about how horrible the meals, the service, the management and everything is at the place from which he was terminated. Due to employment law, the folks here will never know the story of why/how your employment was ended - although you’re welcome to tell your side of the story - but the simple analogy should resonate.

Bitter…

And this DEMANDS an answer:

1. may a Wiccan be a freemason in your Grand Lodge, Ed?

Because you say so?



You’re just SO comical!

Enjoy your Fairie Tales…

Ed King
Webmaster - masonicinfo.com - Anti-Masonry: Points of View
And about Peter’s couple-of-member group, head to masonicinfo.com/allengland.htm

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Do Buddhists believe in a Creator-God?

Buddhists believe that there are beings that inhabit the various celestial realms. These are variously called angels, spirits, gods and devas by various cultures. But do Buddhists believe that a God created everything and manipulate human lives? No, we do not.(SOURCE: Buddhist Answers parami.org/buddhistanswers/index.htm

No wonder you are banned by the following Faiths and Churches: The world of Islam; Celtic Christian Church; Roman Catholic Church; Synod Anglican Church of England; Synod Australian Anglican Church; Methodist Church of England; General Association of Regular Baptist Churches; Orthodox Presbyterian Church; Presbyterian Church of Ireland; Reformed Presbyterian Church; Presbyterian Church in America; Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland; Salvation Army; Wesleyan Methodist Church; Church of Scotland; Baptist Union of Scotland; Free Church of Scotland; Russian Orthodox Church; Assemblies of God; Church of the Nazarene; Evangelical Mennonite Church; Grace Brethren; Christian Reformed Church in America; Independent Fundamentalist Churches of America; The Evangelical Lutheran Synod; Lutheran Church Missouri Synod; Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod.

Now - the Wiccan? I will name a Wiccan “Priest” who has been accepted as a member of your fraternity, and provide a link to his demonic website if you wish, so you might as well admit it.

Deal with the issues.

What is “a” supreme being, just so we know.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Posted on another forum a month ago:

Originally Posted by kadosh
agneau - You may have missed my question to you on this forum. It was this - I recollect that you mentioned you were now an athiest - how come you have not resigned from your UGLE lodge yet? Can you explain that please?

Because I believe in a ‘supreme being’ - what I have chosen to term ‘god’. That ‘god’ is in no way comparable to a theist version of a supernatural and distinct being or entity - it is, if you like, somewhat akin to a humanists viewpoint - man and superman - the idealistic goal of ourselves - and I beleive that this fulfills the essential criteria. I could, without reservation, retake my intiation and obligation without perjuring myself.

Now, we have Buddhists, and a desperately confused “Humanist”.

The Wiccan Priest Ed?

You are right, of course, I know the answer. We just want to hear it from you.

That just leaves two easy QUESTIONS for you:

1. May a Wiccan who worships “the Horned One” be intiated into your freemasonry, and
2. What is “a” supreme being? Please provide a list.

ANSWERS:

1. space provided
2. space provided

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Accidental duplication: Sorry!

 

[PeterClatworthy]

In the absence of a response:

witchschool.com/profile/RevKarlBenJedi

The Reverend Karl Ben-Jedi. A member of a Moderns AF&AM Lodge in Suffolk, England under the jurisdiction of The United Grand Lodge of England.

witchschool.com/photo/photo/listForContributor?screenName=05lcj4nf7awqw&page=3

A Wiccan Priest.

That just leaves the one question for you Mr King. What EXACTLY is “A supreme being”? Please provide a list.

Here we can see the truth of the matter. A situation where Roman Catholics are encouraged to worship God cheek by jowel with a Warlock Priest, a confused Humanist, and Buddhists.

“Recognised” freemasonry? No thank you.

 

[Justin_Mee]

This whole thread reinforces my decision. I am a Free Mason until midnight tonight 12/31/09. I have resigned as I am in the process of ‘coming home’ to the Catholic Church. I have been a FM for 40 some years. I have seen my error and will confess prior to my confirmation.

 

[workingman]

I have read this thread and the answer is plain and simple. Freemasonry or Free Masonry is prohibited by the Catholic Church. I do not care how you spell it. PeterClatworthy can you produce a letter from the Pope saying your group is ok and compatible with the Catholic Church? Probably not. There is also no proof of a link between York Rite and the Knights Templar. You also claimed in this thread that Catholic saints were past Grand Masters. Do you have a document for proof. Otherwise this is just a baseless claim. Unless you prove otherwise you still fall under the Papal Bull of Pope Clement XII see link papalencyclicals.net/Clem12/index.htm or for full artical of In Eminenti see this link papalencyclicals.net/Clem12/c15inemengl.htm

Also there is the Humanum Genus written by Pope Leo XIII see link papalencyclicals.net/Clem12/index.htmhttp://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm
also the Officio Sanctissimo written also by Pope Leo XIII see link papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13bav.htm
also Quod Apostolici Muneris by Pope Leo XIII see link papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13apost.htm

So unless you can prove otherwise with credible sources your group is banned by the Catholic Church same as the other forms of freemasonry. It is incompatible with the Catholic Church.

 

[agent_grey]

Masons are excomunicated by the fact that they are masons(ipso facto). This means that a mason doesn’t need to be publicaly excomunicated to be excomunicated. It means that if you are a mason you are absolutely not a Catholic.

 

[workingman]

This whole thread reinforces my decision. I am a Free Mason until midnight tonight 12/31/09. I have resigned as I am in the process of ‘coming home’ to the Catholic Church. I have been a FM for 40 some years. I have seen my error and will confess prior to my confirmation.

First congratulations on coming home. This was a decision I also had to face as I come home. May God’s blessings be with you on your journey.

 

[workingman]

Masons are excomunicated by the fact that they are masons(ipso facto). This means that a mason doesn’t need to be publicaly excomunicated to be excomunicated. It means that if you are a mason you are absolutely not a Catholic.

:clapping: well stated.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

I do not care how you spell it. PeterClatworthy can you produce a letter from the Pope saying your group is ok and compatible with the Catholic Church? Probably not.

There is also no proof of a link between York Rite and the Knights Templar.

You also claimed in this thread that Catholic saints were past Grand Masters. Do you have a document for proof. Otherwise this is just a baseless claim.

So unless you can prove otherwise with credible sources your group is banned by the Catholic Church same as the other forms of freemasonry. It is incompatible with the Catholic Church.

1. Can you produce a letter from the Pope that says that pure and original religious Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie is NOT compatible? DEFINITELY NOT. And it is compatible, If you disagree, perhaps you could say why because nobody has done so for the past 1,800 years and more, including His Holiness?
2. Completely agree. Our Free Masonrie has no connection whatsoever with the appendant degrees of the Moderns, termed the “York Rite”.
3. Yes we have documentary proof that both St Dunstan and St Edward the Confessor were Grand Masters. St Dunstan was appointed in AD 960. St Edward the Confessor took charge in AD1040.

(EXTERNAL PUBLIC SOURCES: Masonic Yearbook of the United Grand Lodge of England (pre-1738); The Complete Freemason or Multa Paucis (1763); Acta Latomorum ou Chronologie de l’Histoire de la Franche-Maçonnerie Française et étrangére by Claude Antoine Thory (1784); The History of Freemasonry, by Dr William Preston (1742-1818); A Freemason’s Pocket Companion Containing a Brief Sketch of the History of Masonry, A Chronology of Interesting Events, etc. etc., by a Brother of the Apollo Lodge, 711, Oxford, published by Henry Washbourne, London (1831); The Freemasons’ Monthly Magazine, Vol II, No.12, Early History of Masonry in England, by Charles Whitlock Moore (1843); Historical Notes on Freemasonry, The Freemasons Quarterly Magazine and Review, Volume 2, by Edward Lepee M.A., published by Richard Spencer, London (1851); Stream of English Freemasonry by Dr J. P. Bell (1837-1911); Universal Masonic Library, Volume IV, p.xiii, by G. Oliver and Thaddeus Mason Harris (1855); World’s Masonic Register by Leon Hyneman, p.477, Philadelphia (1860); Kenning’s Masonic Cyclopaedia and Handbook of Masonic Archaeology, History, and Biography (1878); Encyclopedia of Freemasonry by Albert Mackey (1873); The History of Freemasonry by J.W.S. Mitchell M.D., published by the American Publishing House: Philadelphia (1858); The Royal Masonic Cyclopaedia by Kenneth Mackenzie (1877); Encyclopaedia Britannica Eleventh edition (1911); The Arcane Schools by John Yarker (1909); A New Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry (Ars Magna Latomorum) by Arthur Waite, London, William Rider & Son (1921); Chronologie Compagnonnique et Maçonnique (1998 & 2001); The Rosicrucian Chronology AD 1-1378; Encyclopädie der Freimaurerei by C. Lenning (2005); De Maçonnieke Encyclopedie, zoekt.)

 

[workingman]

1. Can you produce a letter from the Pope that says that pure and original religious Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie is NOT compatible? DEFINITELY NOT. And it is compatible, If you disagree, perhaps you could say why because nobody has done so for the past 1,800 years and more, including His Holiness?
2. Completely agree. Our Free Masonrie has no connection whatsoever with the appendant degrees of the Moderns, termed the “York Rite”.
3. Yes we have documentary proof that both St Dunstan and St Edward the Confessor were Grand Masters. St Dunstan was appointed in AD 960. St Edward the Confessor took charge in AD1040.

(SOURCES: Masonic Yearbook of the United Grand Lodge of England (pre-1738); The Complete Freemason or Multa Paucis (1763); Acta Latomorum ou Chronologie de l’Histoire de la Franche-Maçonnerie Française et étrangére by Claude Antoine Thory (1784); The History of Freemasonry, by Dr William Preston (1742-1818); A Freemason’s Pocket Companion Containing a Brief Sketch of the History of Masonry, A Chronology of Interesting Events, etc. etc., by a Brother of the Apollo Lodge, 711, Oxford, published by Henry Washbourne, London (1831); The Freemasons’ Monthly Magazine, Vol II, No.12, Early History of Masonry in England, by Charles Whitlock Moore (1843); Historical Notes on Freemasonry, The Freemasons Quarterly Magazine and Review, Volume 2, by Edward Lepee M.A., published by Richard Spencer, London (1851); Stream of English Freemasonry by Dr J. P. Bell (1837-1911); Universal Masonic Library, Volume IV, p.xiii, by G. Oliver and Thaddeus Mason Harris (1855); World’s Masonic Register by Leon Hyneman, p.477, Philadelphia (1860); Kenning’s Masonic Cyclopaedia and Handbook of Masonic Archaeology, History, and Biography (1878); Encyclopedia of Freemasonry by Albert Mackey (1873); The History of Freemasonry by J.W.S. Mitchell M.D., published by the American Publishing House: Philadelphia (1858); The Royal Masonic Cyclopaedia by Kenneth Mackenzie (1877); Encyclopaedia Britannica Eleventh edition (1911); The Arcane Schools by John Yarker (1909); A New Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry (Ars Magna Latomorum) by Arthur Waite, London, William Rider & Son (1921); Chronologie Compagnonnique et Maçonnique (1998 & 2001); The Rosicrucian Chronology AD 1-1378; Encyclopädie der Freimaurerei by C. Lenning (2005); De Maçonnieke Encyclopedie, zoekt.)

Peter I gave you proof in post 48 at the links provided. Masonry is Masonry in the CC’s eyes. If one does a google search on Anglo Saxon Free Masonry and the Catholic Church it does not even come up in the search engine. So like I stated above Masonry is Masonry with out a Papal letter.

Do you have a link that is accessible on line so I myself can attempt to establish the validity of your claim.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Originally Posted by agent_grey
Masons are excomunicated by the fact that they are masons(ipso facto). This means that a mason doesn’t need to be publicaly excomunicated to be excomunicated. It means that if you are a mason you are absolutely not a Catholic.

:clapping: well stated.

Not true. There are thousands of masons around the world who are not Freemasons. Some of them built St Peter’s at Rome and you need them for the repair work.

agent_grey’s statement also misunderstands how ex-communication works. Ex-communication means that that a person is in a state of mortal sin and ex-communicate ( i.e. cannot receive Holy Communion).

It does NOT mean that he is not a Catholic. You cannot un-baptise a Catholic. It is a life sentence.

It is quite clear that if a Moderns Freemason resigns and then sincerely confesses that his former membership was a mortal sin then he will receive absolution.

 

[brigantine]

1. Can you produce a letter from the Pope that says that pure and original religious Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie is NOT compatible? DEFINITELY NOT.

Nobody here has to prove squat or produce any documentation because YOU are the one trying to sell/prove something. Most people are not going to be fooled by a slick website with ZERO documentation to support it. You change “y” to “ie” and you expect everyone to have a V8 moment and come running! This is crazy because you are talking about peoples souls and most people would want more that YOUR word to go with in such important decisions.

Show some proof of this from an outside unbiased source that can be studied and somebody may take you serious! There has been a ton of research into the Templar/Masonic/Ancient Jewish connection and no credible evidence has been produced. Publish your evidence in an archeological (peer reviewed) journal and then come back until then go sell your goods elsewhere!

On a side note I have nothing against real Free Masonry and think they do a ton of great Charity work. The Shriners do incredible work for children that should be emulated by every good and decent Christian! That being said they are a group that allows any and all beliefs to join therefore they don’t believe in a single Truth like Catholics or Orthodox should believe in. This is why the Popes and Patriarchs have condemned Masonry-(ie) and not because of some great world controlling conspiracy! I know some really great Masons who are awesome people but that does not mean I will join them!

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Peter I gave you proof in post 48 at the links provided. Masonry is Masonry in the CC’s eyes. If one does a google search on Anglo Saxon Free Masonry and the Catholic Church it does not even come up in the search engine. So like I stated above Masonry is Masonry with out a Papal letter.

Do you have a link that is accessible on line so I myself can attempt to establish the validity of your claim.

Look, these are serious issues. We have to be very careful here with misuse of the English language.

A Mason or mason is not a Freemason or a Free Mason. There are thousands of masons around the world. Some of them built St Peters at Rome and you still need them to carry out repairs. You should not upset them.

The link. I followed the link and thank you for that but I was already completely familiar with it and the current situation. It is a part of my job description to communicate with Rome and we also have local representation in the form of the Grand Master’s personal representative, a Professor of Divinity at Milan University.

It is crystal clear that the pure and original form of original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry, by its very definition could NOT be included. Utterly impossible.

If you think that it should be, then that is a different matter. If so, perhaps you would be kind enough to say why?

There is a link to our website hereunder.

Here is a question for you. If somebody started an organisation named the Poodle Club, or the Moderns changed its name to the Friends of the Pope in Rome, and never agin mentioned the word “freemasonry” would that mean that the ban would be lifted? Of course not.

It is not the word “freemason” that is banned, it is what the freemasonry is, what it does and what it means.

In terms of what The Grand Lodge of All England is, what it does, and what it means, it is totally impossible to be included in the ban. The ban has clear reasons and a clear description of what is banned. We, the Grand Lodge of All England is not included.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Nobody here has to prove squat or produce any documentation because YOU are the one trying to sell/prove something.

Well in that case my statement will remain the status quo.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Publish your evidence in an archeological (peer reviewed) journal and then come back until then go sell your goods elsewhere!

You are quite right. So far I have concentrated on the historical documentary evidence rather than the field archaeology.

Archaeology: study of ancient cultures by the excavation and analysis of physical remains.

Please explain what archaeology you wish to see or know about, and in what periods. From 2010 back to time immemorial is quite a long time.

Let me know and I will try to provide it for you.

 

[brigantine]

Well in that case my statement will remain the status quo.

You still don’t get it do you? “Your statement will remain the status quo” on bed of shifting sand until YOU produce solid verifiable proof! Your word is NOT evidence for the snake oil your selling and until there is some solid research to back your claims (this needs to be in peer reviewed journals) your statements are meaningless!!

I believe you know this and its the reason you just repeat yourself instead of showing us the evidence. I’m sure once you present your evidence the Pope and Patriarchs will issue a statement saying if you spell Masonry with an “ie” your good to go!!

There are many many many groups claiming to be true Hospitallers but to my knowledge there are only three (Russian, English Crown, Papal) that can prove they are true decedents form the original Knights Hospitallers. Until you can do the same you will just be another pretender group claiming to be the “real thing”!

 

[brigantine]

You are quite right. So far I have concentrated on the historical documentary evidence rather than the field archaeology.

Archaeology: study of ancient cultures by the excavation and analysis of physical remains.

Please explain what archaeology you wish to see or know about, and in what periods. From 2010 back to time immemorial is quite a long time.

Let me know and I will try to provide it for you.

Publish your work and have your peers review it! When I did my thesis on Nitrogen Sinks in Aquatic Wetlands, I published this in a scientific journal and it was reviewed and changes made accordingly. This is what YOU need to do! Find am Archeological Society that is recognized by major scientific institutions and present you research to them for publishing in their journal. If and only if they allow this then present your evidence to the Pope! Its very simple if you have credible work. I can also guarantee you that if your work is proven true you will make a ton of money!!