Catholic church and saints in argentina

[cornerstone]

i am from argentina and i was a catholic for 25 years of my 31. the reason im not a catholic anymore is because Jesus found me. For the most part of those 25 years i went to a catholic church in buenos aires.
it was almost a miracle to find a person with his Bible at church, and it was really common to find people down on their knees on a little bench praying to statues of Mary or any saint or even archangel. Before you start attacking me i want to say this. i dont have a problem with Mary the mother of Jesus. nor i have a problem with any of the saints. Mary had to be very special to be chosen by God to deliver Jesus into this world. my problem is with the catholic church alone, letting people put their faith in any other thing then God.
here is a little something for you who think im exaggerating.
if you take time to research this you will find that in buenos aires there is a special day of the year when people go to San Cayetano’s church. why? because San Cayetano is the Saint that provides a job for the almost 20% people without one in buenos aires. people go down to this church and they set their tents sometimes weeks in advance. they get in line to be the first one touching San Cayetano’s little statue. San Cayetano is just a little example. Everyone knows that latin culture worships Mary on top of any other saint.
where is my living Jesus? how come he does not get to be worshipped?
i know now you are going to tell me that i am wrong but i was there and i know i am not. i know how the catholic church uses saints to provide people something to hold on to.
i remember my grandmother used to be the same way about saints. the only thing is she was from Italy.
that is why now i look back and im so glad that there is only one between my and God.
nope, not San Cayetano…

 

[Hananiah]

cornerstone:

i am from argentina and i was a catholic for 25 years of my 31. the reason im not a catholic anymore is because Jesus found me.

Sounds more like Satan got you.

it was really common to find people down on their knees on a little bench praying to statues of Mary or any saint or even archangel.

How do you know that they were praying to the statues? The Jewish High Priest prayed in front of statues of cherubim. Was he praying to the statues of cherubim.

where is my living Jesus? how come he does not get to be worshipped?

He humbled Himself and came down from heaven to unite with His people at every Mass you went to, and His people worshipped Him in His physical presence.

 

[Clermont]

cornerstone:

where is my living Jesus? how come he does not get to be worshipped?..

Didn’t you go to Mass? If you did you apparently didn’t understand what was going on there. It is all about Jesus being worshipped.

You claim to once have been Catholic, but your post indicates you don’t have much understanding about Catholic doctrine.

 

[Clermont]

cornerstone:

it was almost a miracle to find a person with his Bible at church…

Are you implying that there was no Scripture read in the Masses you attended?

 

[Zski01]

Catholic doctrine is solid, but unfortunately [unread] laypeople often misinterpret or practice it in a way not in accordance with the teaching.
Is bad theology among laymen a fault of the laymen or the Church doctrine? I would place responsibility on those who have not read up on doctrine to not know it properly, then those around them (such as you) who know the truth and do not correct them.

 

[cornerstone]

im starting to understand how this forum works. you attack someone when you cannot give an actual answer.

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

cornerstone:

im starting to understand how this forum works. you attack someone when you cannot give an actual answer.

Your second sentence in the original post sounds like an attack (that Jesus is not found in the Catholic Church or that I as a Catholic don’t have Jesus.) Questioning my relationship with Jesus is pretty insulting. However, I will try to give you an answer to your two questions.

where is my living Jesus? how come he does not get to be worshipped?

As Catholics, we believe that Jesus is physically present in the bread and wine which become His real body and blood. Since the Mass is centered on the Liturgy of the Word (the Scriptures) and the Liturgy of the Eucharist (the body and blood of Jesus) we get plenty of Jesus all around. The Mass is focused pretty much entirely on Jesus. In my local parish, any and all honor to Mary and the saints is done outside of the Mass. My pastor gives homilies which always relate to the stories in the Gospel and the blood that Jesus shed for my sins. My local is open 24/7 for Eucharistic Adoration, which is just silent meditation and prayer in front of Jesus in the Eucharist. My local parish is very alive and on fire for Jesus. I have learned much more about Jesus from the Catholic Church than I have at my mom’s Protestant church.

On a sidenote, the recent hit film about Jesus, “The Passion of the Christ” certainly got a lot of people on fire for Jesus. And, the movie is very, very Catholic. It was made by a Catholic director and the leading actor is a devout Catholic.

Finally, as a Catholic, I believe that Jesus is the only one between me and God. But, I believe that Jesus works through His appointed ministers: the bishops, priests, and deacons, so that we may live a fuller life in Him. I do not see the clergy as a barrier, but instead, as a bridge. I may direct my prayers to the saints but I ask for their intercession as brothers and martyrs in Christ, not gods (for there is only one God), and I also pray to the Father (as a Christian and a Catholic, I have the privelege of calling the almighty Master of the Universe my Father) directly.

 

[cornerstone]

Zski01:

Catholic doctrine is solid, but unfortunately [unread] laypeople often misinterpret or practice it in a way not in accordance with the teaching.
Is bad theology among laymen a fault of the laymen or the Church doctrine? I would place responsibility on those who have not read up on doctrine to not know it properly, then those around them (such as you) who know the truth and do not correct them.

do you read the Bible Zski01?
this is 1 Timothy 2:1-5
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

and this is Acts 4:10-12

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

is this bad theology too?

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

I also forgot to put in my post: welcome to the forum. I hope that you aren’t turned away from here by any uncharitable actions. Keep in mind that all of us make mistakes, and really, and we try to adhere to Jesus’ second commandment (love thy neighbor as thyself.) But never before following the first and greatest commandment (love the Lord thy God…)

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

cornerstone:

do you read the Bible Zski01?
this is 1 Timothy 2:1-5
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

and this is Acts 4:10-12

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

is this bad theology too?

I will let Zski01 answer for himself whenever he gets around to it, but I will comment that I agree wholeheartedly with both passages you quoted. Both passages are read and expounded on in my (Catholic) church thanks to the liturgical calendar’s 3-year readings cycle. No verse left unmentioned!

 

[John_Henry]

cornerstone:

this is 1 Timothy 2:1-5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

“Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 480)

cornerstone:

and this is Acts 4:10-12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

**"**The name “Jesus” signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation, so that “there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 432)

cornerstone:

is this bad theology too?

That is wonderful theology. It is Catholic theology, which Protestant communities have borrowed, and separated from the rest of the fullness of the faith.

 

[St_Veronica]

cornerstone:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

If someone asks you to pray for them, do you?

If so then I trust you will stop at once! Because when you pray for someone you are MEDIATING between God and man. And there is only ONE mediator isn’t there?

SV

 

[cornerstone]

Archbishop 10-K:

I also forgot to put in my post: welcome to the forum. I hope that you aren’t turned away from here by any uncharitable actions. Keep in mind that all of us make mistakes, and really, and we try to adhere to Jesus’ second commandment (love thy neighbor as thyself.) But never before following the first and greatest commandment (love the Lord thy God…)

so far the only person that said that to me. i am really trying to discuss what i believe is one of the big reasons that turn people away from the catholic church and at the same time one keeping them. if you are not open to it just let me know and i will quit posting here. i too believe that you are my brothers. the Bible says it and i believe it. i believe that the work of the cross was perfect, lacking nothing.
this faith was not borrowed by the protestants from the catholic church. the roman empire borrowed from the christians. constantine made christianity the official religion of the roman empire (remember? in this sign i will conquer). when right before that christians were getting killed for the same faith. what was the religion of the roman empire before that?
those are the kind of things i would like to discuss. again if no one is willing to. just let me know.

 

[John_Henry]

cornerstone:

this faith was not borrowed by the protestants from the catholic church. the roman empire borrowed from the christians. constantine made christianity the official religion of the roman empire (remember? in this sign i will conquer). when right before that christians were getting killed for the same faith. what was the religion of the roman empire before that?
those are the kind of things i would like to discuss. again if no one is willing to. just let me know.

OK, this is the first you mentioned of these things. Bring up a specific point and I am sure people will discuss with you.

Yes, Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the empire. Before that, Christians were killed for their faith (they still are). The religion (if one can call it that) of the Roman empire before that was paganism. If there is a specific implication from this set of facts about which you wish to find out the Catholic position, ask away. Catholics on these boards field these questions all the time. But you have to ask before we can answer.

You pointed out two verses from scripture further up the thread, implying that they contradicted Catholic teaching. I quoted the Catechism twice demonstrating that they are Catholic teaching. Christ is the one mediator and there is only one name given under heaven by which we must be saved. Catholics believe that. How these teachings mesh with other Catholic teachings is another question (again, which you have to ask).

One more thing. I would venture to say that it was the tone of your first posting that elicited some of the strong reactions you received. That’s not an excuse, but it does explain it. Again, if you have questions, please ask. I, or many brighter people, will answer you. But your first post didn’t ask anything. It merely accused people of things. For instance, I have prayed in front of a statue of Mary. But I can tell you I was neither worshipping Mary, nor was I praying to the piece of concrete. You see, there is a distinction between “kneeling in front of” and “worshipping”. If you had asked why Catholics kneel in front of statues of Mary, you would have received an answer many messages ago. But you didn’t.

God bless you.

 

[Zski01]

Well Cornerstone, there is a huge difference between mediation (Christ’s role) and intercession (fellow Christians praying for us). Unfortunately, individual Catholics often confuse the role of the saints and almost seem to pay too much attention to them as mediators.

Are the scripture verses you quoted bad theology? No, in fact they are inerrant statements from the inerrant scripture which the Catholic Church canonized in 397. They are wholeheartedly embraced by the Church, and have been for 1600 years. There is a huge difference between prayer as an act of worship (to God) and prayer as a request for an intercession (to fellow “saints” – hence the term “communion of saints” in the creeds). Praying is only “speaking to,” but often Protestants see it only as an act of worship. God alone is worthy of worship, as the Catechism says over and over.

My point in my earlier post was not to attack you but to point out that there, as you hint at, sometimes people who get confused on the role of the saints. We are to pray “through” them, not “to” them, just as others have mention.

Now that you know that folks in Argentina are confused about the doctrine, we need people like you not to leave the Church, but to correct misconceptions on the part of Catholics who do not understand the difference.

 

[mrS4ntA]

cornerstone:

…
what was the religion of the roman empire before that?..

Simple: Christian Catholic (universal) religion, headed by the Apostles and their successors, the first among which led and resided** in Rome**, albeit under persecution and forced to operate underground, or so to speak.

 

[cornerstone]

John_Henry:

OK, this is the first you mentioned of these things. Bring up a specific point and I am sure people will discuss with you.

Yes, Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the empire. Before that, Christians were killed for their faith (they still are). The religion (if one can call it that) of the Roman empire before that was paganism. If there is a specific implication from this set of facts about which you wish to find out the Catholic position, ask away. Catholics on these boards field these questions all the time. But you have to ask before we can answer.

You pointed out two verses from scripture further up the thread, implying that they contradicted Catholic teaching. I quoted the Catechism twice demonstrating that they are Catholic teaching. Christ is the one mediator and there is only one name given under heaven by which we must be saved. Catholics believe that. How these teachings mesh with other Catholic teachings is another question (again, which you have to ask).

One more thing. I would venture to say that it was the tone of your first posting that elicited some of the strong reactions you received. That’s not an excuse, but it does explain it. Again, if you have questions, please ask. I, or many brighter people, will answer you. But your first post didn’t ask anything. It merely accused people of things. For instance, I have prayed in front of a statue of Mary. But I can tell you I was neither worshipping Mary, nor was I praying to the piece of concrete. You see, there is a distinction between “kneeling in front of” and “worshipping”. If you had asked why Catholics kneel in front of statues of Mary, you would have received an answer many messages ago. But you didn’t.

God bless you.

you are a very kind person. i am sorry for my frustration on the first post.
im a Christian. my faith is Christ centered only. i believe the Bible to be the absolute and infalible Word of God. i believe the catholic church used to, and uses saints as replacements of faith when faith should be only placed in God.
here is a question
Do you thing catholics should set up tents and wait for weeks to touch a little statue of San Cayetano and hope for a job?
does the Bible teach that?
does the catholic church have any responsability on it?
i look fordward to continue this conversation

 

[mrS4ntA]

cornerstone:

…
i believe the catholic church used to, and uses saints as replacements of faith when faith should be only placed in God.
…

Hogwash!
Faith in God strongly undermines devotion to saints! Without the faith that God hears the prayers and intercession of the saints, faith to the saints (as in: I have faith in your ability) crumble.

 

[John_Henry]

cornerstone:

Do you thing catholics should set up tents and wait for weeks to touch a little statue of San Cayetano and hope for a job? does the Bible teach that? does the catholic church have any responsability on it?

Catholics believe that Christians who have “died” in a state of grace are, in fact, not dead, but more alive than you or me (Mt. 22:32). Catholics believe these saints can hear us (Heb. 12:1). And that these saints have been made completely holy (Rev. 21:27). And that, therefore, they are in a wonderful position to pray for us, because the prayer of a righteous person avails much (Jas. 5:16). One such prayer that a saint might make for us is that we might gain employment. That answers part of the question.

The other part of the question centers on the fact that we are human beings. Part of what that means is that we are a union of flesh and spirit, body and soul. As such “incarnate” creatures, some humans sometimes feel it necessary to incarnate their prayers (to act them out). An example of this would be the sign of the cross. I could just say, “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” and it would be a valid prayer, but somehow, acting it out by making the sign of the cross somehow completes the prayer, makes it more meaningful to me. This is also part of the reason why the Church thinks God saves us through baptism (1 Pet. 3:21), so that a creature in a body will know for sure that he has been justified. It is also why Catholics wear medals and wedding rings. They believe that physical things (medals and rings) help us remember the promises we have made to God and to others, and thus they help us to be obedient to God, or help us to turn to God in prayer, to receive healing or help (Acts 19:12).

In like manner, visiting a statue is a perfectly reasonable thing for a Christian to do. It is simply a way of acting out (incarnating) a prayer. We are not pure spirits. Seeing things, touching things, smelling things, tasting things are all quintessentially human actions. God made us human, and called us “good”. And therefore it is good to use the capacities he gave us to reach out to him in prayer. And this includes touching. We don’t believe that statues work miracles. Statues simply act as objects that bring us closer to God by helping us to pray. By helping us to be who God made us to be, agents with hands, feet, noses, and eyes.

 

[cornerstone]

mrS4ntA:

Hogwash!
Faith in God strongly undermines devotion to saints! Without the faith that God hears the prayers and intercession of the saints, faith to the saints (as in: I have faith in your ability) crumble.

two thigns.
first. if what you are saying is true in the catholic church then san cayetano’s church should be crowded every sunday, not just once a year.
second. how come for the catholic church different saints have different abilities?
in this case San Cayetano is the saint of the jobless.
does not the Bible teach that we should ask God what we need?
i could do some research and produce a list of different saints and their “abilities”. the source would be the catholic church in argentina
i have two words for it. paganism. politeism