Catholic church and saints in argentina

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JesustheSavior:
You are right we worship God,not a saint,not a bible but the true living God.
In Romans 8:26 you read: Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses.For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought,but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with the goranings wich can not be uttered.
Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns?It is Christ who died,and furthermore and is also risen,who is even at the right hand of God,who also makes intercession for us.
So i pray to God because the bible tells me that only one intercedes for me in front of Him Jesus nobody else.
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We pray to God. God alone is worthy of worship. Scripture tells us that no one but Christ is a mediator. If you reject the intercession of the saints (because you say only Christ intercedes), then, you also have to understand you reject the principle that your friends can pray for you, because only Christ can “intercede.”

Intercession is not mediation, and intercession is not worship in the sense of requesting saints to “pray for you.”

When Catholics say saints intercede, we claim that saints in full communion can pray for each other: living or dead. Whether you agree with that is one thing, but if you say it is condemned in Scripture I would disagree with you on that point.
 
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JesustheSavior:
You are right we worship God,not a saint,not a bible but the true living God.
In Romans 8:26 you read: Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses.For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought,but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with the goranings wich can not be uttered.
Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns?It is Christ who died,and furthermore and is also risen,who is even at the right hand of God,who also makes intercession for us.
So i pray to God because the bible tells me that only one intercedes for me in front of Him Jesus nobody else.
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Good. I will take your word for it that you and other Protestants worship God, not a saint, not a bible, but the true living God. Maybe you can also afford Catholics the same courtesy of believing us when we say we worship God, not a saint, not a bible, but the true living God. There seems to be a charism of second-sight that some Protestants seem to have been blessed with, where they just know that Catholics *worship *saints, despite the multitude of Catholic claims to the contrary. It’s kinda spooky.

Asking someone to pray for you does not entail worshipping that person.
 
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Zski01:
We pray to God. God alone is worthy of worship. Scripture tells us that no one but Christ is a mediator. If you reject the intercession of the saints (because you say only Christ intercedes), then, you also have to understand you reject the principle that your friends can pray for you, because only Christ can “intercede.”

Intercession is not mediation, and intercession is not worship in the sense of requesting saints to “pray for you.”

When Catholics say saints intercede, we claim that saints in full communion can pray for each other: living or dead. Whether you agree with that is one thing, but if you say it is condemned in Scripture I would disagree with you on that point.
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You are right i do not agree that a dead person can pray for me, it is not biblical.That a friend can, yes because it is biblical we should pray for on another Paul was very clear about that.
When a friend pray’s for me he is asking, not interceding, or mediating for me.
 
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JesustheSavior:
You are right i do not agree that a dead person can pray for me, it is not biblical.That a friend can, yes because it is biblical we should pray for on another Paul was very clear about that.
When a friend pray’s for me he is asking, not interceding, or mediating for me.
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The saints are alive with Christ, more alive than we are! Dead? Hardly! We ask the saints to add their prayers to ours, and to pray for us. The Bible clearly says the saints in heaven are praying…just who do you think they are praying for?? They aren’t praying for those already there! What about Paul talking about the ‘cloud of witnesses’ being present…who do you think that is?

I find it interesting that you are trying to play semantics with words. How do you define the difference between asking, interceeding and mediating?

SV
 
You may want to check your definition for intercession. If today I pray for you, I am, by Catholic definition, interceding for you. Same thing.

I understand that you do disagree that saints in Heaven can pray for us. That’s expected as most Protestants hold that view. The important thing for you to understand is that in no way do we elevate saints to God’s level, and that prayer requests to saints in Heaven is anything but worship.

I am curious though about one thing. Most Protestants affirm the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds. Do you? If so, how do you define the “communion of saints?” You and I have already stipulated that saints are those in Christ (dead and alive), so I’m curious how you interpret the statement “we believe in the communion of saints.”
 
St Veronica:
The saints are alive with Christ, more alive than we are! Dead? Hardly! We ask the saints to add their prayers to ours, and to pray for us. The Bible clearly says the saints in heaven are praying…just who do you think they are praying for?? They aren’t praying for those already there! What about Paul talking about the ‘cloud of witnesses’ being present…who do you think that is?

I find it interesting that you are trying to play semantics with words. How do you define the difference between asking, interceeding and mediating?

SV
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Are you talking about the end of times?
 
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JesustheSavior:
So i pray to God because the bible tells me that only one intercedes for me in front of Him Jesus nobody else.
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I was just wondering about that statement - Do you not acknowledge a Triune God?

Because whether I call Him God, Jesus, or Holy Spirit - I am praying to God. - Just a little confused by your statement. I don’t pray to one to go to the other, they are all the same.
 
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Mandi:
I was just wondering about that statement - Do you not acknowledge a Triune God?

Because whether I call Him God, Jesus, or Holy Spirit - I am praying to God. - Just a little confused by your statement. I don’t pray to one to go to the other, they are all the same.
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I believe in the Trinity if that is what you are asking, but let’s don’t forget they are 3 in one so wether i am praying to God i am praying to Son and Holy Spirit.

And to St. Veronica when you say the cloud of witness,do you know what you are talking about?
 
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JesustheSavior:
You are right i do not agree that a dead person can pray for me, it is not biblical.That a friend can, yes because it is biblical we should pray for on another Paul was very clear about that.
When a friend pray’s for me he is asking, not interceding, or mediating for me.
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Tsk, tsk, you are arguing about words now and St. Paul tells us not to do that. In Catholic language, if I were to pray for you (and yes, I am alive), I would thereby be interceding for you. You can argue meaning of words all you want, but it nevertheless remains that a Catholic means that a saint is praying (like your friends) for us when we say the saint is interceding for us.
 
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JesustheSavior:
The word saint means pure clean,according to the bible we are that when we accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior,Paul in some of his letters said he was going to minister to the saints,share there necesities etc.
There is no specific saint in the bible and not one word that Jesus gives His glory to a saint or he mentions that we should ask,worshiped a saint.
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Quote Jimmy Akin:

"So when Matthew 27:52 says that at the Crucifixion “The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised” (NASB), what it means is that many of the Christians who died and were buried before Christ came back to life.
And when Daniel 4:13 says that a saint (or “holy one”; same word in the original) came down from heaven and appeared in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, it means that a Christian came down from heaven.

And when, in John 6:69, Peter calls Jesus the Saint of God (or “Holy One”; again, same word in the original), he means that Jesus was “a Christian, called and holy not because of what he has done, but because of what Christ has done for him.”

Further, when Ps. 71:22 calls God the Saint of Israel (or “Holy One” of Israel; again the difference exists only at the fiat of the translators), it means that God is “a Christian, called and holy not because of what he has done, but because of what Christ has done for him.”"

There are many uses of the word saint in the Bible.
 
so let me understand all of you once and for all. Jesus came and died for me so thru Him i have access to the Throne of Grace but i still need Mary or saint to intercede for me.
do we really need a middle-man in our relationship with God?
can your faith sustain itself with God alone and the blood of Jesus?

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
**9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth…
**…18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

goodbye everybody
 
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cornerstone:
so let me understand all of you once and for all. Jesus came and died for me so thru Him i have access to the Throne of Grace but i still need Mary or saint to intercede for me.
do we really need a middle-man in our relationship with God?
can your faith sustain itself with God alone and the blood of Jesus?
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Wrong again. Once and for all. And once again, that exquisite fundamentalist charity rearing its beautiful head on the way out. “If you can’t convince them, call them a whore.”
 
so let me understand all of you once and for all. Jesus came and died for me so thru Him i have access to the Throne of Grace but i still need Mary or saint to intercede for me.
do we really need a middle-man in our relationship with God?
can your faith sustain itself with God alone and the blood of Jesus?
Click to expand...
Yes, Jesus died for us.

No, you don’t need Mary and the saints to intercede for you. Praying for the intercession of the saints is completely optional.

Yes, my faith can sustain itself with God alone. I am 100% Catholic and I do not personally pray for the intercession of saints, simply because I was brought up as a Protestant.
 
So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
**9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth…
**…18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
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The whore of Babylon is the old Roman empire from St. John’s day. The Catholic Church does not sit on the seven hills of Rome, but rather Vatican Hill, which is on the opposite side of the Tiber River (the Church is there partially because it could not be accepted within the seven hills region.) The Church does not reign over the kings of the earth. In fact, the Church does not have a lot of influence in world politics. If it did, then abortion would be illegal in France and Spain.

You did not quote the part where the angel says that Babylon is fallen with a mighty crash. Ancient Rome fell with a mighty crash, indeed.
 
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JesustheSavior:
I believe in the Trinity if that is what you are asking, but let’s don’t forget they are 3 in one so wether i am praying to God i am praying to Son and Holy Spirit.

And to St. Veronica when you say the cloud of witness,do you know what you are talking about?
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Of course I know what I am talking about…I wouldn’t of said anything otherwise.

SV
 
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John_Henry:
Quote Jimmy Akin:

"So when Matthew 27:52 says that at the Crucifixion “The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised” (NASB), what it means is that many of the Christians who died and were buried before Christ came back to life.
And when Daniel 4:13 says that a saint (or “holy one”; same word in the original) came down from heaven and appeared in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, it means that a Christian came down from heaven.

And when, in John 6:69, Peter calls Jesus the Saint of God (or “Holy One”; again, same word in the original), he means that Jesus was “a Christian, called and holy not because of what he has done, but because of what Christ has done for him.”

Further, when Ps. 71:22 calls God the Saint of Israel (or “Holy One” of Israel; again the difference exists only at the fiat of the translators), it means that God is “a Christian, called and holy not because of what he has done, but because of what Christ has done for him.”"

There are many uses of the word saint in the Bible.
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Exactly but it never gives the name of a particular saint,and let’s remember those saints that resureccted die again tillthe great day were we all will be in front of the throne of God.
 
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JesustheSavior:
Exactly but it never gives the name of a particular saint,and let’s remember those saints that resureccted die again tillthe great day were we all will be in front of the throne of God.
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They are in heaven now. And if all Christians are saints (a concept with which Catholics agree), I don’t understand the objection to calling some Christians in heaven saints.

I have a hunch: do you believe anyone is in heaven now?
 
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cornerstone:
so let me understand all of you once and for all. Jesus came and died for me so thru Him i have access to the Throne of Grace but i still need Mary or saint to intercede for me.
do we really need a middle-man in our relationship with God?
can your faith sustain itself with God alone and the blood of Jesus?

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth…
…18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

goodbye everybody
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You complain about being attacked by Catholics, then assert that we are “pagans,” “politeists (polytheists),” and our church is the Whore of Babylon.

Now take the next step and prove (using scripture) that John was talking about the Catholic Christian Church.
 
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cornerstone:
goodbye everybody
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CORNERSTONE IS JUST UPSET BECAUSE MEXICO DEFEATED ARGENTINA **1-O **THIS PAST SATURDAY IN THE “COPA AMERICA” DE FUTBOL.

THANKS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE!!
 
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