Catholic church and saints in argentina

[John_Henry]

cornerstone:

does not the Bible teach that we should ask God what we need?

To be honest and consistent, you should therefore stop asking your friends to pray for you. I don’t have to do that, though. It’s OK if my friends pray for me because I recognize it as something the bible commends. When asking a friend to pray that I would be able to quit smoking, I will go to a friend who has also quit smoking, or who is also trying. That way, he better knows what to pray for. Same thing with my fellow Christians, the saints in heaven. When I need a job, I will ask a particular saint who also struggled with joblessness to pray for me (as well as asking God myself).

Whatever you do, though, don’t ask your friends to pray for you. After all, it’s only you and God. No other intercessors, right.

 

[Zski01]

Patron saints are venerated for what contributions they made while on Earth…not for the “abilities” they have now. I would strongly suggest you do some research on the place of the saints, not on what you have grown up believing. If folks in Argentina believe that saint will give them jobs, they are wrong. God alone is omnipotent.

If you’re going to call my faith paganism, don’t be surprised if folks start “attacking” you. No one here has called you a pagan or a heretic, but now you have called us that. I don’t appreciate that at all.

You claim an evidence of the Catholic church being untrue is that your home church is only crowded once or twice a year. Is that a sign that the entire Catholic Church is dead, or there are many nominal believers in your area? I would say that a community of nominal, and non-Christians, is typical everywhere, and especially in your home town.

I firmly believe we are all brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum, but I have a huge problem when folks take an abuse of Catholic doctrine (such as what you seem to describe from your perspective) and claim that the abuse is the actual doctrine. You may just want to touch up on the definitions of veneration, intercession, and how they differ from worship. There is a huge difference.

 

[Zski01]

What is “politeism”? It seems like it’s supposed to be a jab against the Church, but I’ve never heard of it. Do you mean “polytheism” (I’m not trying to make fun of you for misspelling it if that is what you meant, I’m just curious).

 

[cornerstone]

there is a big difference between asking a fellow christian to pray for me and asking a saint to help me with my crops or with my domestic animal.
that fellow christian will pray to God.
catholic church teaches believers that it is ok to pray to a saint even for an animal

St Antionio Abad (January 17th): Patron of domestic animals

St Antonio Abad 17 of January Was born in a population of the Egypt stop, to the south of Menfis, year 251. Antonio retired to the solitude following the example of old ermitaño of the environs. The manual work, the oration and the reading constituted in ahead their main occupation. To the 54 years of age, towards year 305, it left its cell in the mountain and founded a monastery on Fayo.El monastery consisted originally of a series of isolated cells, but we cannot affirm with certainty that all the colonies of ascetas founded by san Antonio were conceived of equal way. Later, it founded another called monastery Pispir, near the Nile. San Antonio exhorted his brothers to worry less possible about his body, but he kept well to confuse the perfection, that consists of the love of God, with the mortificación. It advised to its monks who thought each morning that would not perhaps live until the day end, and that executed each action, as if outside the last one of its life. “demon-it said it fears to the uninformed one, the oration, humility and the good works, and is reduced to the impotence before the signal de la Cruz”. Towards year 355, it made a trip to Alexandria at the request of the bishops to refute to the arrianos. There it preached the consustancialidad of the Son with the Father, blaming the arrianos to be confused with the pagans “who rather adore and serve the creatura than the Creator”, since they made of the Son of God a creatura. It died in year 356, at the age of 105 years. It seems that in 561, their rest were discovered and transferred to Alexandria, later to Constantinopla, and finally to Vienne of France. Imagenes represents San Antonio with a cross in form of T, a campanita, a pig generally, and sometimes a book. The bizantina liturgy invokes the name of San Antonio in the eucarística preparation, and the rite copto.

alright where is the part where he helps the pets???

 

[cornerstone]

Since the Middle Ages, San Antón Abad (the Abbott) has been acknowledged as the Patron Saint of domestic animals and it is customary, especially in Spanish Catholic countries, for the people to take their animals to be blessed by the priest on this day. Sometimes this happens in a church and sometimes because of the vast numbers involved, in a public place combined with festivities.

The history of San Antón is as follows. He was born in Egypt in the year 251, and at 20 yrs old, sold all his worldly goods and chose complete solitude, living in the desert with nature, as a hermit. People came to listen to his wise words. He is said to have started the great monastic tradition of the church. He lived till he was 105 yrs old.

Below are two separate accounts of the Saint’s Day, both from volunteers who help the galgos in Spain
A Spanish priest blesses the animals of the people. Dogs, horses and various other pets come out for the event, and many animal lovers, so this was a good day for spreading the word about rescuing galgos. We had the only galgos there; two adults and three puppies, and caused quite a scene in your silks. … Unfortunately, it was a stressful event for them which you can see in their faces."

paganism. polytheism (thanks man now i can write it correctly!)
no more. no less

 

[JesustheSavior]

John_Henry:

Catholics believe that Christians who have “died” in a state of grace are, in fact, not dead, but more alive than you or me (Mt. 22:32). Catholics believe these saints can hear us (Heb. 12:1). And that these saints have been made completely holy (Rev. 21:27). And that, therefore, they are in a wonderful position to pray for us, because the prayer of a righteous person avails much (Jas. 5:16). One such prayer that a saint might make for us is that we might gain employment. That answers part of the question.

The other part of the question centers on the fact that we are human beings. Part of what that means is that we are a union of flesh and spirit, body and soul. As such “incarnate” creatures, some humans sometimes feel it necessary to incarnate their prayers (to act them out). An example of this would be the sign of the cross. I could just say, “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” and it would be a valid prayer, but somehow, acting it out by making the sign of the cross somehow completes the prayer, makes it more meaningful to me. This is also part of the reason why the Church thinks God saves us through baptism (1 Pet. 3:21), so that a creature in a body will know for sure that he has been justified. It is also why Catholics wear medals and wedding rings. They believe that physical things (medals and rings) help us remember the promises we have made to God and to others, and thus they help us to be obedient to God, or help us to turn to God in prayer, to receive healing or help (Acts 19:12).

In like manner, visiting a statue is a perfectly reasonable thing for a Christian to do. It is simply a way of acting out (incarnating) a prayer. We are not pure spirits. Seeing things, touching things, smelling things, tasting things are all quintessentially human actions. God made us human, and called us “good”. And therefore it is good to use the capacities he gave us to reach out to him in prayer. And this includes touching. We don’t believe that statues work miracles. Statues simply act as objects that bring us closer to God by helping us to pray. By helping us to be who God made us to be, agents with hands, feet, noses, and eyes.

So when the bible tells you that you should not kneel before an image because, He is a jelaous God and to only Him you should bow, and not only that,when God condems idolatry thru out the whole bible then it means it’s ok?

 

[Zski01]

There it preached the consustancialidad of the Son with the Father, blaming the arrianos to be confused with the pagans "who rather adore and serve the creatura than the Creator"

This Saint seems to have combatted the Arian heresy for not Worshipping the Creator (God). How is that a bad thing?

 

[Zski01]

Have you ever kneeled in front of your bed to pray?

 

[JesustheSavior]

Zski01:

Patron saints are venerated for what contributions they made while on Earth…not for the “abilities” they have now. I would strongly suggest you do some research on the place of the saints, not on what you have grown up believing. If folks in Argentina believe that saint will give them jobs, they are wrong. God alone is omnipotent.

If you’re going to call my faith paganism, don’t be surprised if folks start “attacking” you. No one here has called you a pagan or a heretic, but now you have called us that. I don’t appreciate that at all.

You claim an evidence of the Catholic church being untrue is that your home church is only crowded once or twice a year. Is that a sign that the entire Catholic Church is dead, or there are many nominal believers in your area? I would say that a community of nominal, and non-Christians, is typical everywhere, and especially in your home town.

I firmly believe we are all brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum, but I have a huge problem when folks take an abuse of Catholic doctrine (such as what you seem to describe from your perspective) and claim that the abuse is the actual doctrine. You may just want to touch up on the definitions of veneration, intercession, and how they differ from worship. There is a huge difference.

Will you please answer me if that is the case,all those who are persecuted right now and dying for the name of Jesus aren’t those saints to? according to Jesus they are and He does said He will give them the crown of life.

 

[Zski01]

No one has ever said that those who are canonized by the Church are the exclusive list of saints. All who die in Christ, (correct me if I’m wrong) from what I’ve read in Scripture, are saints. The Catholic Church identifies those who have led a life visibly in service to Christ to serve as examples for us to follow. No one ever said that those are the only folks who fit in that category.

We profess the “communion of saints”: all who are in Christ and who have died in Christ are saints in full communion…one faith in Heaven and on Earth in full communion.

 

[Mandi]

cornerstone:

there is a big difference between asking a fellow christian to pray for me and asking a saint to help me with my crops or with my domestic animal.

I don’t see the difference except maybe the thoughts and voices of a Saint (someone who is already in heaven & close and pleasing to Our Lord) maybe more pleasing than the requests of sinful people.

Now if my dog were sick or I had a herd of cattle I wanted to prosper I could ask my friend or my mother to help me pray for that intention or I could go to St. Francis Assisi, and I could say something like this “Dear St. Francis, with whom the Lord is well pleased, help my dog to get better, please pray for us” Now whether the dog gets better or not is up to God. But it doesn’t hurt to ask and the more that ask, the better. And the more that ask who are pleasing to God, well better yet!

But devotion to Saints goes further than that. The Saints are people who lived extraordinary lives, we should study exactly what they did to move close to God and try to exemplify that. There is not a problem in the world that a Saint did not overcome before us. It is no mistake that they have been given to us not just for help but for example. May we be worthy to walk in the shoes of a Saint - That is how we become close to God - by their example.

If they could do it - why can’t we!

We are all called to be Saints!

 

[John_Henry]

JesustheSavior:

So when the bible tells you that you should not kneel before an image because, He is a jelaous God and to only Him you should bow, and not only that,when God condems idolatry thru out the whole bible then it means it’s ok?

The short non-specific answer is that those people who were being told not to bow down before those statues were being told that because they worshipped those statues. They thought those statues could actually answer their prayers. Those statues were their gods. I am under no delusion that the piece of cement in front of me can answer me. Rather, I use it like I would use a family picture, as a way of helping me remember the Christian in heaven whose prayers I seek. And if those prayers are answered, I will thank the saint for his prayers and glorify God for his lovingkindness.

Somehow I suspect you have heard that answer before, though.

And I have seen Protestants kneel before Bibles before. But everyone knows Protestants don’t worship the Bible.

Peace.

 

[cornerstone]

i have lots of info on this respect because i come from i country (argentina) very influenced by italian culture.
thanks to constantine who used christians as political power now we have the roman catholic church.

 

[John_Henry]

cornerstone:

there is a big difference between asking a fellow christian to pray for me and asking a saint to help me with my crops or with my domestic animal.
that fellow christian will pray to God.

Sorry, buddy, but that is exactly what the Church teaches about the saints. The saint is a fellow Christian who prays to God for you (and your crops). Period. There is no difference, except that the saint is perfectly holy.

 

[John_Henry]

cornerstone:

i have lots of info on this respect because i come from i country (argentina) very influenced by italian culture.
thanks to constantine who used christians as political power now we have the roman catholic church.

The Christian Church was called catholic from at least AD 107, pre-dating Constantine by over 200 years.

 

[Zski01]

cornerstone:

i have lots of info on this respect because i come from i country (argentina) very influenced by italian culture.
thanks to constantine who used christians as political power now we have the roman catholic church.

You stipulate that those in your country almost worship the saints. That is in clear contradiction to Catholic doctrine. I would say then that people down there are misinformed and wrong on that point.

Based upon observing these people, you conclude that they are doing what is held in doctrine, hence the doctrine is wrong. The truth is that worshipping saints is wrong.

Is it possible that you are wrong from the misperceptions you held in the past? How much actual reading have you done in the Catechism on the communion of saints, intercessions, etc?

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

this faith was not borrowed by the protestants from the catholic church. the roman empire borrowed from the christians. constantine made christianity the official religion of the roman empire (remember? in this sign i will conquer). when right before that christians were getting killed for the same faith. what was the religion of the roman empire before that?

Because I’m a history buff and am considering a career teaching world history, I need to correct this misconception.

Constantine did NOT make Christianity the official religion of the empire.

Constantine created a decree called the Edict of Milan. In it, he made Christianity a LEGAL religion, as opposed to an ILLEGAL religion. It did not have priority over paganism. The Edict also returned all confiscated property to the Church. The Edict did DIS-ESTABLISH paganism as the official religion of the empire, but it did not the opposite for Christianity.

The religion of the empire before that was, of course, the Religio Romana, the state religion of paganism.

As for the phrase, it’s “in hoc signo vinces” or “In this sign you shall conquer”. Constantine was given that vision in a dream before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. He battled Emperor Maxentius with an odds of between 4-to-1 and 10-to-1 against Constantine’s favor. He won. It’s a pretty impressive story.

how come for the catholic church different saints have different abilities?
in this case San Cayetano is the saint of the jobless.
does not the Bible teach that we should ask God what we need?

Saints don’t have “abilities” at all. All they have the power to do is intercede to God on someone’s behalf. All their power is from God.

And yes, the Bible does teach that. Whatever I pray to a saint for, I also pray directly to the Father for.

I would say that what’s been going on in Argentina is probably over the line. If I were there, I’d probably try to correct them.

Will you please answer me if that is the case,all those who are persecuted right now and dying for the name of Jesus aren’t those saints to? according to Jesus they are and He does said He will give them the crown of life.

Yes! We are saints too! That is why you and me pray for each other right here on earth. The term “saint” is generally applied to the saints in heaven, though, just for distinction.

It should be remembered that the saints in heaven are our brothers and sisters in Christ that have lived good Christian lives or have died for the faith. As such, we view the saints as our extended family, never as deities.

 

[JesustheSavior]

John_Henry:

The short non-specific answer is that those people who were being told not to bow down before those statues were being told that because they worshipped those statues. They thought those statues could actually answer their prayers. Those statues were their gods. I am under no delusion that the piece of cement in front of me can answer me. Rather, I use it like I would use a family picture, as a way of helping me remember the Christian in heaven whose prayers I seek. And if those prayers are answered, I will thank the saint for his prayers and glorify God for his lovingkindness.

Somehow I suspect you have heard that answer before, though.

And I have seen Protestants kneel before Bibles before. But everyone knows Protestants don’t worship the Bible.

Peace.

You are right we worship God,not a saint,not a bible but the true living God.
In Romans 8:26 you read: Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses.For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought,but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with the goranings wich can not be uttered.
Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns?It is Christ who died,and furthermore and is also risen,who is even at the right hand of God,who also makes intercession for us.
So i pray to God because the bible tells me that only one intercedes for me in front of Him Jesus nobody else.

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

cornerstone:

i have lots of info on this respect because i come from i country (argentina) very influenced by italian culture.
thanks to constantine who used christians as political power now we have the roman catholic church.

Once again, please do not hold to this mis-conception about Constantine any longer. For one thing, Constantine could not use Christianity for political gain because when he entered into Rome after the Battle of the Milvian Bridge bearing Christian symbols, the upper patrician and senatorial class looked down on him as one of those “dirty Christians.” Constantine could not even, in fact, build Christian churches within the seven hills of Rome. That is one reason why St. John Lateran and St. Peter’s Basilica are somewhat distanced from the ancient Roman districts.

 

[JesustheSavior]

Archbishop 10-K:

Because I’m a history buff and am considering a career teaching world history, I need to correct this misconception.

Constantine did NOT make Christianity the official religion of the empire.

Constantine created a decree called the Edict of Milan. In it, he made Christianity a LEGAL religion, as opposed to an ILLEGAL religion. It did not have priority over paganism. The Edict also returned all confiscated property to the Church. The Edict did DIS-ESTABLISH paganism as the official religion of the empire, but it did not the opposite for Christianity.

The religion of the empire before that was, of course, the Religio Romana, the state religion of paganism.

As for the phrase, it’s “in hoc signo vinces” or “In this sign you shall conquer”. Constantine was given that vision in a dream before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. He battled Emperor Maxentius with an odds of between 4-to-1 and 10-to-1 against Constantine’s favor. He won. It’s a pretty impressive story.

Saints don’t have “abilities” at all. All they have the power to do is intercede to God on someone’s behalf. All their power is from God.

And yes, the Bible does teach that. Whatever I pray to a saint for, I also pray directly to the Father for.

I would say that what’s been going on in Argentina is probably over the line. If I were there, I’d probably try to correct them.

Yes! We are saints too! That is why you and me pray for each other right here on earth. The term “saint” is generally applied to the saints in heaven, though, just for distinction.

It should be remembered that the saints in heaven are our brothers and sisters in Christ that have lived good Christian lives or have died for the faith. As such, we view the saints as our extended family, never as deities.

The word saint means pure clean,according to the bible we are that when we accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior,Paul in some of his letters said he was going to minister to the saints,share there necesities etc.
There is no specific saint in the bible and not one word that Jesus gives His glory to a saint or he mentions that we should ask,worshiped a saint.