J
JesustheSavior
Guest
Yes i do,those who believe that Jesus came and die for there sins those are in heaven now.
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M
Melchior
Guest
Whose fault is that?
Mel
S
Sherlock
Guest
Melchior,
You asked, “Whose fault is that?”
I am hardly going to defend the often lousy teaching of our faith that has been a problem for some 40 years—especially as I received the same poor education.
Having said that, I don’t think you should forget forget personal responsibility. We ought to know our faith, whether we were poorly taught as children or not. I came back to the Catholic faith after spending some years away from it (both as an atheist and then as a Protestant), because I bothered to take the time to find out what the faith was about. The material is available, and there’s little excuse.
I don’t have harsh feelings about my Protestant years—funny, most converts and reverts don’t seem to feel the need to trash the churches they left or misrepresent their doctrines. But Cornerstone is going the classic route of the ex-Catholic—hating the Church for what he (or she) thinks it teaches despite reasonable explanations; self-righteousness regarding the Catholics he left behind (apparently Cornerstone is able to read those people’s minds and know just what they believe); and a disdain for the use of the intellect (bothering to learn history, etc).
One of the many things I admire about Aquinas was how he presented his opposition’s BEST arguments, not straw men. But let’s face it, that requires both Christian charity and a first-rate intellect, and we all know that thinking is hard, plus it’s easy and satisfying to degrade others. So, predictably enough, Cornerstone, JesustheSavior, and others have chosen the easy route and thus attack a straw-man cartoon of Catholicism that bears little or no resemblance to reality. Oh, and throwing out the old “Whore of Babylon” and “pagan” labels—I mean, wow, who could have seen that coming?
You asked, “Whose fault is that?”
I am hardly going to defend the often lousy teaching of our faith that has been a problem for some 40 years—especially as I received the same poor education.
Having said that, I don’t think you should forget forget personal responsibility. We ought to know our faith, whether we were poorly taught as children or not. I came back to the Catholic faith after spending some years away from it (both as an atheist and then as a Protestant), because I bothered to take the time to find out what the faith was about. The material is available, and there’s little excuse.
I don’t have harsh feelings about my Protestant years—funny, most converts and reverts don’t seem to feel the need to trash the churches they left or misrepresent their doctrines. But Cornerstone is going the classic route of the ex-Catholic—hating the Church for what he (or she) thinks it teaches despite reasonable explanations; self-righteousness regarding the Catholics he left behind (apparently Cornerstone is able to read those people’s minds and know just what they believe); and a disdain for the use of the intellect (bothering to learn history, etc).
One of the many things I admire about Aquinas was how he presented his opposition’s BEST arguments, not straw men. But let’s face it, that requires both Christian charity and a first-rate intellect, and we all know that thinking is hard, plus it’s easy and satisfying to degrade others. So, predictably enough, Cornerstone, JesustheSavior, and others have chosen the easy route and thus attack a straw-man cartoon of Catholicism that bears little or no resemblance to reality. Oh, and throwing out the old “Whore of Babylon” and “pagan” labels—I mean, wow, who could have seen that coming?
Z
Zski01
Guest
I’ve met just as many Protestants who didn’t know their faith as Catholics. I don’t blame either Church, but look at the complacent attitudes we (me included) can sometimes have towards our salvation and the essence of our faith.
R
Richard_Lamb
Guest
In the Catholic church tere is no one between me and God, there is a family that joins me in prayer to God, those are mar and the Saints.
Que Dios te Bendiga my Hermano.
C
Catholic_Eagle
Guest
Zski,
What are you trying to get out of this post?
What are you trying to get out of this post?
Z
Zski01
Guest
It’s not about me, but our Church.
A
Aris
Guest
QUOTE=cornerstone]so let me understand all of you once and for all. Jesus came and died for me so thru Him i have access to the Throne of Grace but i still need Mary or saint to intercede for me.
do we really need a middle-man in our relationship with God?
can your faith sustain itself with God alone and the blood of Jesus?
Christ is sufficient.
But to go back to your original question and why it lead you to leave the Church.
I do not think you equated the saints as God. And even if you ask the simple people going to the Church for the Feast of San Cayetano, you would also get the same answer. They would know the difference between God and the saints.
I was attracted to them by their camraderie and the way they expressed their faith.
But I pulled back because I said these were not enough reason to leave the Church.
You must ask yourself this.
Is the Catholic Church the True Chruch?
To help you answer this are simple questions answerable to yes or no.
Did it go back to Christ? Can your church’s history be traced back to Christ?
Was Christ the founder of your church?
Do all of the teachings traceable to Christ and the Apostles?
Only the Catholic Church answers all these questions with a Yes.
Even if you have said goodbye, I still pray that you read these threads and that it would somehow shed light on your questions.
Again welcome to the forums.
do we really need a middle-man in our relationship with God?
can your faith sustain itself with God alone and the blood of Jesus?
Christ is sufficient.
But to go back to your original question and why it lead you to leave the Church.
- Was it because when you were a Catholic you equated Saints with God? That is the First Commandment right? “I am the Lord your God. You shall not have any god before Me.”
I do not think you equated the saints as God. And even if you ask the simple people going to the Church for the Feast of San Cayetano, you would also get the same answer. They would know the difference between God and the saints.
- I think you should look deeper in to the Catholic Faith without the bias you have now. The Catholic Church in your mind right now has been twisted by whoever turned you away from the Church. It is so far from the Truth.
I was attracted to them by their camraderie and the way they expressed their faith.
But I pulled back because I said these were not enough reason to leave the Church.
You must ask yourself this.
Is the Catholic Church the True Chruch?
To help you answer this are simple questions answerable to yes or no.
Did it go back to Christ? Can your church’s history be traced back to Christ?
Was Christ the founder of your church?
Do all of the teachings traceable to Christ and the Apostles?
Only the Catholic Church answers all these questions with a Yes.
Even if you have said goodbye, I still pray that you read these threads and that it would somehow shed light on your questions.
Again welcome to the forums.
N
neum334
Guest
As a Catholic I find that the “just me and God” approach is OK to a point, but isn’t that lying to yourself? It’s like you’re in a large room full of people and you pretend they don’t exist. It is a gesture of Christian charity to honor the saints as we should honor and love one another of those we can see here on earth. Read Hebrews 12. In the Catholic perspective and interpretation it represents what happens when we pray.
It seems sometimes I myself fail to act charitably toward others, pushing them out of my little shell to worship an abstract sense of God. But I know we find God in the love we should have for one another and in a special way, his Real Presence in the Eucharist.
It’s certainly a temptation to use religion as a lucky charm, but the underlying thing we should keep in mind is love.
Maybe all we need is the love of Christ. Reading God’s word can be exciting, and apologetics can sometimes be addictive to the point of losing the sense of the Holy Spirit in the good works that we do. But love and grace is given so that we’d share it with others, whether is be our family, friends, the Blessed Mother, or San Cayetano…and they in turn pray for us as a gesture of love, sharing with us what we shared with them.
“Where there is charity and love, God is there.”
It seems sometimes I myself fail to act charitably toward others, pushing them out of my little shell to worship an abstract sense of God. But I know we find God in the love we should have for one another and in a special way, his Real Presence in the Eucharist.
It’s certainly a temptation to use religion as a lucky charm, but the underlying thing we should keep in mind is love.
Maybe all we need is the love of Christ. Reading God’s word can be exciting, and apologetics can sometimes be addictive to the point of losing the sense of the Holy Spirit in the good works that we do. But love and grace is given so that we’d share it with others, whether is be our family, friends, the Blessed Mother, or San Cayetano…and they in turn pray for us as a gesture of love, sharing with us what we shared with them.
“Where there is charity and love, God is there.”
N
neum334
Guest
“Where there is charity and love, God is there.”
Isn’t the “just me and God” approach, lying to yourself? It’s as if you are in a large room full of people and you pretend they don’t exist. As a gesture of Christian charity, at least acknowledge their presence.
I myself have failed to act charitably toward others, shutting people out to pray to an abstract view of God. Reading God’s word and apologetics can be exciting and addictive to the point of losing the sense of the Holy Spirit in my actions. And it’s a temptation to use religion as a lucky charm, but the underlying thing is Love.
What we need is the love of Christ. And when we receive His love and grace, it is meant to be shared with others…our family, friends, the Blessed Mother, San Cayetano…and they in turn share that love in return by praying for us. Where is God in all this? God is Love!
As Christ is a mediator, think of mediator as the air through which sound travels and even sound itself, and we and the saints are the ears. Umm…you may ask where are the mouths in all this?..uh well…I’m working on the analogy…but hope you understand…
…so without the one mediator, there is no sound, there is no love. And we should at least be aware of each other’s (ears) presence.
Ehh, I should have more tact in explaining my analogies…hope this helps though.
Isn’t the “just me and God” approach, lying to yourself? It’s as if you are in a large room full of people and you pretend they don’t exist. As a gesture of Christian charity, at least acknowledge their presence.
I myself have failed to act charitably toward others, shutting people out to pray to an abstract view of God. Reading God’s word and apologetics can be exciting and addictive to the point of losing the sense of the Holy Spirit in my actions. And it’s a temptation to use religion as a lucky charm, but the underlying thing is Love.
What we need is the love of Christ. And when we receive His love and grace, it is meant to be shared with others…our family, friends, the Blessed Mother, San Cayetano…and they in turn share that love in return by praying for us. Where is God in all this? God is Love!
As Christ is a mediator, think of mediator as the air through which sound travels and even sound itself, and we and the saints are the ears. Umm…you may ask where are the mouths in all this?..uh well…I’m working on the analogy…but hope you understand…
…so without the one mediator, there is no sound, there is no love. And we should at least be aware of each other’s (ears) presence.
Ehh, I should have more tact in explaining my analogies…hope this helps though.
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