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DiscernVoc
Guest
Excellent point.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
So if standing in front of an oncoming bus seems like a foolhardy exercise at the time you’re thinking of doing it, you would go ahead and do it, because Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross seemed foolhardy at the time He did it?
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Mjae
Guest
Yes, Jesus giving his life up for me is foolhardy in my opinion, but I’m grateful for it. Throwing yourself in front of a bus is suicidal too, but you might ‘might’ do it, if it was your child who happened to be in front of it.
Before we drown in inadequate analogies, I am simply trying to make the point that it is not wrong to be charitable and try be an example to people whose faith doesn’t share the same vision as ours.
It may only be a small step in trying to point the way. Whether they choose the direction that you want them to is not your problem, it is God’s. It only matters that you do your small step and have faith that God knows what to do next.
Of course, if you don’t see it that way, then by all means follow your conscience.
Before we drown in inadequate analogies, I am simply trying to make the point that it is not wrong to be charitable and try be an example to people whose faith doesn’t share the same vision as ours.
It may only be a small step in trying to point the way. Whether they choose the direction that you want them to is not your problem, it is God’s. It only matters that you do your small step and have faith that God knows what to do next.
Of course, if you don’t see it that way, then by all means follow your conscience.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
Point the way away from the True Faith, you mean. I guess Jesus would also have done well to spend His time building synagogues instead of laying the foundations of Christianity. After all, why should He have tried to attract followers when He could have just said, “No, don’t come listen to my preaching. I just built you a new synagogue that you can go to instead and listen to the Pharisees calling me a heretic and telling you to disregard everything I’ve said.” Jesus would have been pointing the way for them by doing this, wouldn’t He? What’s the difference between this and building a mosque where people will also be told that Christ is not God?
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Greg27
Guest
I think Islamic communities should fund any mosques they build with their own funds; I am not sure why they would seek support from Christians.
Because Islam is rapidly growing in many parts of the world where Christians (including Catholics) are present, I think a more tolerant approach to inter-faith relations than rejecting it out of hand are needed. Indeed, the strong faith and piety of many Muslims in the face of aggressive secularism in their own countries, and strong adherence to their religious teachings in the moral sphere, as well as there strong concern for social justice in the face of the greedy materialism of global corporate capitalism, have a lot in common with Catholicism, and they like Catholics, are strict monotheists.
Because Islam is rapidly growing in many parts of the world where Christians (including Catholics) are present, I think a more tolerant approach to inter-faith relations than rejecting it out of hand are needed. Indeed, the strong faith and piety of many Muslims in the face of aggressive secularism in their own countries, and strong adherence to their religious teachings in the moral sphere, as well as there strong concern for social justice in the face of the greedy materialism of global corporate capitalism, have a lot in common with Catholicism, and they like Catholics, are strict monotheists.
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Dale_M
Guest
It would be good to keep this in perspective. It was one Sunday collection, not a big distraction and a mere pittance of the total cost of construction.
I think the gesture was simply a matter of being consistent with love of neighbor.
Yes. Its not a popular sentiment in these forums but Catholics and Muslims have quite a lot in common. We would do well to work together.
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DiscernVoc
Guest
How is doing a charitable act pointing away from our faith? Doing acts out of love while expecting nothing in return is one of the central aspects of our faith.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
I don’t know how to make you understand this. Is it a good deed to lead someone away from the Truth? To lead someone away from Christ? By helping to build a mosque, that’s exactly what you’re doing! You might not be aware of this, but Islam leads people away from the Truth by saying that Jesus is just a prophet, not God, and that Mohammed is greater than Jesus! By helping to build a mosque, you are facilitating the teaching of this, and leading people to believe that Christ is not God, since this is what is taught in mosques. By helping people learn lies about God, are you doing them a good deed???
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MK9
Guest
Chrostopherfair- I understand much of your feeling. As to a writer’s mention of what the Catechism says concerning Islam as worshiping the same God, those that believe this should re-read, prayerfully, invoking the Holy Spirit of Truth in the Name of Jesus to fill you and guide you, those relevant parts of the Catechism and the Lumen Gentium, after reading in the Holy Spirit of Truth the words of the Logos. For all that find the Father find the SOn. And Islam represents the religiojn of the anti-christ by its nature- to reject Christ, or give another Christ. Please pray to receive the Holy Spirit, and to be guided by Christ, the one teacher. Only then can you understnad the teachings of Holy Scripture, only then the teachigns of the Church. The Pope, Benedict XVI, said in a recent speach to Muslims that those that truely find God, and not just an ideology, are lead bY THE LORD TO Faith, and to Christ, the Logos. He was very tender worded, very ver diplomatic- but the content is there, undeniably.
Read the Lumen Gentium prayerfully as I have described regarding other religouns, and you will see…
The Catechism says they have the same God as us NOT that they worship the same God. Just being a theist doesn;t make one a worshiper of the Triune God- nor does one who has the ideology of a worshipper of the Triune God; such is the spirit of the anti-christ within the Church, which seeks to make an ideology out of the Gospel message, as oppose to salvation in Christ Jesus alone, as the Scriptures, and the Infallible teachings of the Church teach.
As to the Muslim readers here- peace of Christ, our Risen Lord be with you. I invite you to ask in internal prayer God to lead you to the truth concerning Christ, whom Moses and the other prophets before Him spoke of…
Indeed, the world could do with more peace makers amongst us.I pray it may occur in Love and Truth.
Peace,
MK9
Read the Lumen Gentium prayerfully as I have described regarding other religouns, and you will see…
The Catechism says they have the same God as us NOT that they worship the same God. Just being a theist doesn;t make one a worshiper of the Triune God- nor does one who has the ideology of a worshipper of the Triune God; such is the spirit of the anti-christ within the Church, which seeks to make an ideology out of the Gospel message, as oppose to salvation in Christ Jesus alone, as the Scriptures, and the Infallible teachings of the Church teach.
As to the Muslim readers here- peace of Christ, our Risen Lord be with you. I invite you to ask in internal prayer God to lead you to the truth concerning Christ, whom Moses and the other prophets before Him spoke of…
Indeed, the world could do with more peace makers amongst us.I pray it may occur in Love and Truth.
Peace,
MK9
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DiscernVoc
Guest
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They were not leading them away from Christ. They were already away from Christ. They’re not Christians. They’re Muslims. By helping them you are showing them how unconditional the love of Christians can be. Did Pope John Paul II lead Muslims away from Christ by visiting Muslim countries and meeting with Muslim leaders. No, he showed brotherly love. His journey to these lands was to bridge the gap between our two civilizations. Similarly this parish is in the same community with these Muslims. They are going to have to live with them and as Christians we are supposed to love unconditionally. By donating one weeks worth of collections they showed that they respect and love these brothers in Abraham and opened the doors for future dialogue. With future dialogue maybe their will be some converts, maybe not. Either way at least now this parish has the oppurtunity to show Christ’s love directly. The last fifty years the leaders of the church have strived to acknowledge Islam and Judaism as an Abrahamic brotherhood in which we share. Read the Catechism, read Nostra Aetate from Vatican II. Listen to the teachings of our last two Holy Fathers. We are expected to acknowledge the Jewish and Muslim faithful as fellow monotheists that all derive from the same place. While that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t evangelize it does mean that there is merit to what these people believe. Donating one weeks worth of collections to use as they see fit in building their mosque should not be causing that much of a scandal on this thread. Its concurrent with what our catechism, our Pope, and our Lord teach us in terms of dealing with our Abrahamic brethren. In fact I just read an article online about Pope John Paul II leading a prayer service in a synagogue. Is this leading people away from Christ? No, he was showing love and respect by building a bridge with our Jewish brothers. While I do love the Jewish people, I know that Muslims have a greater love for Jesus than the Jews.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
There are better ways to show love and charity for our Muslim neighbours than helping fund the building of a place where they’ll be taught lies about God. So what if they have a greater love for Jesus than the Jews? They still believe Him to be merely a human prophet, and an inferior one to Muhammad at that.
I know they’re already Muslims and not Christians, but we’re supposed to be spreading the Gospel message and leading people, including Muslims, to Christ. By helping build a mosque, we’re showing that we consider Islam to be just as good a religion as Christianity (why else would we be helping them keep this relgion going?), and thereby leading them further from Christ by showing them that there’s no need to look towards Christianity, since Christianity’s building a nice mosque to practice Islam in. I’m sure many will be touched by the generosity of the Christians, but it would still come with the message I mentioned above.
As far as John Paul II is concerned, visiting a mosque and helping build one are two different things. Of course we need to have friendly relations with the Muslims, and dialogue, but the ultimate end of this dialogue should be to convert Muslims to Christianity, not to encourage them to remain Muslim by providing them with a place to practice Islam. If this is about being friendly to the Muslims, there are many other ways to do this than by helping build a mosque.
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DiscernVoc
Guest
I’m sorry, but if visiting a mosque and holding an interfaith prayer service is not the same level of love and respect for these two faiths as donating money for this mosque,then its pretty darn close. And yes, evangelizing is very important but you’ll never get anywhere until you bridge the culture gap between these two faiths. Now I even said earlier that there probably are other ways to help Muslims that would be less controversial, but this parish made a prudential judgement that helping this way would be acceptable and very useful to this community. We don’t know anymore than what is in the article, but nothing I read seemed to disagree with my prudential judgement either and I have read much about the Church’s stance on the Abrahamic faiths. I have consulted the catechism and Nostra Aetate from Vatican II. I have read account after account of the last several popes visiting synagogues and mosques and leading interfaith services and prayers. I have read their statements on our relations with these two faiths. All of this seems to support the actions of this parish in my prudential judgement. Now I respect your devotion to Christ and our mission to evangelize but I disagree that what these people did is a statement of the Muslim faith being an equal bearer of truth with Catholicism. What is really the difference between donating money to fund a mosque and holding an interfaith service there as the pope did in a Cologne, Germany synagogue? Is money or a building a bigger statement of support then a prayer service? Is the intent and the message sent out that different? While I don’t think so I am willing to concede that a different form of charity would be easier to morally discern. That being said I have a hard time believing that there would be as much outrage in this thread if a parish donated money to a synagogue. I also notice in the quote above that you phrase the argument as one between Christianity supporting Islam. This may be an inappropriate way to look at it. These people may know each other on a personal basis. They live in the same community and perhaps neighborhood. This shouldn’t be treated as the Christian world versus the Muslim world. These Christians have a chance to show these people true Christ-like love at work. Christianity is not building these people a mosque. Christians are donating money to these people who are building a mosque. Another thing we have to remember is that as people of another faith, these Muslims cannot be simply taught about the divinity of Christ. They have to be shown it by the Holy Spirit. This is why St. Francis taught that we should “evangelize and use words if necessary.” I guess that brings us to the heart of the argument with no agreement in sight. I do respect your judgement on the issue,however.
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Morning_Star15
Guest
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this. While I don’t doubt that the Christians who are donating money to build this mosque are doing this out of charity and love of neighbour, I’m concerned about the message it sends. The best and kindest thing we can do for our Muslims friends and neighbours is to lead them to Christ. We would not be leading someone to Christ by making it easier for them to listen to lies about Him in a mosque.
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DiscernVoc
Guest
In your opinion, do you think that there would be less resistance in these forums to a parish doing the same for a synagogue? I often get the impression that there is less zeal for converting Jews. What do you think and if the answer is yes is this morally and theologically warranted?
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MK9
Guest
Our Holy Roman Pontiff, visited non-Christians and prayed with them- they have the same Lord, though from the Gospel of John (and many other books of Scripture) we knwo they do not yet have worship of the Father- .
St. Paul visited the Romans, and gave a defense that lead to Christ. Pope Bennedict XVI has done the same- if you have followed much of what he has said at speaches given to Muslims, you’ll know he carefully suggested the neccessity of receving the Spriit of Christ, of receivign the Logos, the Word.
St. Paul also warned us NOT to sacrafice at Idols, or eat meat sacrificed to the Idols of the elementals. He TALKED and PRAYED in the Word, in the Logos, for/to the Heathen, the pagan.
He did not support the cause of their worship. It seems pretty plain. Please read the relevant parts of Scripture, searching prayerfully in Christ the words of St. Paul regarding this matter.
St. Paul also taught concerning whom are the children of Abraham- we are children by Faith. As their is but ONE true Faith, that in the Christ Jesus, they are no more children of Abraham than the “Jews” who failed to recognise Christ, and so be inculded in the remnant of Israel. It was the remnant of Israel, i.e. Christiandom, that St. Paul referred to as the childen of Abraham.
Muslims are, therefore, children of Abraham only in a worldy manner of speaking.
May the Lord Almighty bless the paths of our Muslim kindred, whom in Love and Truth we pray for, that they too may know the True Peace of Christ.
St. Paul visited the Romans, and gave a defense that lead to Christ. Pope Bennedict XVI has done the same- if you have followed much of what he has said at speaches given to Muslims, you’ll know he carefully suggested the neccessity of receving the Spriit of Christ, of receivign the Logos, the Word.
St. Paul also warned us NOT to sacrafice at Idols, or eat meat sacrificed to the Idols of the elementals. He TALKED and PRAYED in the Word, in the Logos, for/to the Heathen, the pagan.
He did not support the cause of their worship. It seems pretty plain. Please read the relevant parts of Scripture, searching prayerfully in Christ the words of St. Paul regarding this matter.
St. Paul also taught concerning whom are the children of Abraham- we are children by Faith. As their is but ONE true Faith, that in the Christ Jesus, they are no more children of Abraham than the “Jews” who failed to recognise Christ, and so be inculded in the remnant of Israel. It was the remnant of Israel, i.e. Christiandom, that St. Paul referred to as the childen of Abraham.
Muslims are, therefore, children of Abraham only in a worldy manner of speaking.
May the Lord Almighty bless the paths of our Muslim kindred, whom in Love and Truth we pray for, that they too may know the True Peace of Christ.
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