Catholic Church Found Liable for firing single, pregnant teacher

[fix]

He spent most of His time speaking about love for all, including sinners. Not consequences. It’s not “endorsing sin” to love one another equally.

He frequently spoke about hell. He founded His Church which speaks for Him with authority.

 

[JMJSHJ]

We have very different readings of Christ’s actions, Dawnia. Your Christ sounds punitive and ugly, frankly. I’d have a hard time worshiping that Christ.

Does Hell exist in your Christ? Isn’t Hell the ultimate punishment? For the record I am NOT saying this teacher is going to Hell. No person can say that about anyone.

 

[gracepoole]

He frequently spoke about hell. He founded His Church which speaks for Him with authority.

While I haven’t done a side-by-side comparison, I’m guessing His references to love outnumber His references to sin. I think it says far more about each of us as individuals than it does Christ when we prefer His comments about sin over those about tolerance and love.

Does Hell exist in your Christ? Isn’t Hell the ultimate punishment? For the record I am NOT saying this teacher is going to Hell. No person can say that about anyone.

That’s the point – no one likes a relativist but what does it do to say that Pol Pot and a single pregnant woman both wind up in hell? If that’s not relativism…

 

[fix]

It is an interesting way to view truth. Basically you sign your name to a contract. Claiming your word is good. You violate the contract, cause scandal, get fired for breaking your word, then sue because you get what you deserved.

That type of moral logic is not support by the bible or Tradition or even good logic. It is self serving, immature, and frankly pure hubris.

 

[fix]

While I haven’t done a side-by-side comparison, I’m guessing His references to love outnumber His references to sin. I think it says far more about each of us as individuals than it does Christ when we prefer His comments about sin over those about tolerance and love.

And if you count up all these words then what? That is how you draw an intelligent conclusion?

That’s the point – no one likes a relativist but what does it do to say that Pol Pot and a single pregnant woman both wind up in hell? If that’s not relativism…

Interesting standard you use? Is the standard Christ or Pol Pot? Because if the standard is Christ then breaking the commandments is not really working your favor.

 

[gracepoole]

And if you count up all these words then what? That is how you draw an intelligent conclusion?

I’m guessing you know that a tally wasn’t the point of my comment. One of the unique aspects of Christ is His unfailing love and forgiveness, which He preached ceaselessly. And the kinds of sin that He most despised aren’t what’s at issue here. I can’t offhand recall any post of yours in which you refer to Christ’s compassion and encourage it as a response to any subject. This absence is striking.

Interesting standard you use? Is the standard Christ or Pol Pot? Because if the standard is Christ then breaking the commandments is not really working your favor.

So Pol Pot, bin Laden, Hitler…these people are the moral equivalent of a woman who uses IVF to conceive? I’ll ask this yet again: why on Earth would I want to worship a deity that put these on an equal footing?

 

[fix]

I’m guessing you know that a tally wasn’t the point of my comment. One of the unique aspects of Christ is His unfailing love and forgiveness, which He preached ceaselessly. And the kinds of sin that He most despised aren’t what’s at issue here. I can’t offhand recall any post of yours in which you refer to Christ’s compassion and encourage it as a response to any subject. This absence is striking.

His compassion is not as use. False compassion is the issue. Using Christ to justify bad behavior is not Christian. If you cannot contradict my arguments then please do not attack me.

So Pol Pot, bin Laden, Hitler…these people are the moral equivalent of a woman who uses IVF to conceive? I’ll ask this yet again: why on Earth would I want to worship a deity that put these on an equal footing?

Again what is your standard? If yours is that some are not as bad as Pol Pot then I guess anything goes, but that is not Christ’s standard. Do you think the only sin is murder?

 

[gracepoole]

Again what is your standard? If yours is that some are not as bad as Pol Pot then I guess anything goes, but that is not Christ’s standard. Do you think the only sin is murder?

Not at all! But I cannot fathom how placing a genocidal lunatic on par with a pregnant woman is just – amongst humans or in our God. Or do you accept something like Dante’s view of hell, in which there are different levels for different kinds of crimes?

 

[Usige]

So Pol Pot, bin Laden, Hitler…these people are the moral equivalent of a woman who uses IVF to conceive? I’ll ask this yet again: why on Earth would I want to worship a deity that put these on an equal footing?

You miss an important point. There is only one type of sin, that which turns us away from God. Murder, slander, genocide, and yes IVF, all turn us from God’s plan. When we ignore God it is we, not him, that condem ourselves to hell. Here’s something to really blow your mind; Hitler may have repented and is in heaven while the nice lesbian couple that rejected God might be eternally seperated from Him. None of us can say who is in hell, we can only listen to the Church on those thing that lead us away from Him. IVF is one of those.

I agree we should love the sinner, but we should not embrace and enable them in their sin. It seems some people only remember forgiveness as a spiritual work of mercy, but ignore the fact that admonishing the sinner is also a spiritual work of mercy. Too often people just turn a blind eye in an effort to forgive. Forgiveness doesn’t mean lack of punishment.

Here’s an example. My kids were playing and swung a bat and broke a TV a couple months ago. I forgave them the second they said sorry, but they were still punished. It is an act of love and mercy to do both, not one or the other.

 

[fix]

Not at all! But I cannot fathom how placing a genocidal lunatic on par with a pregnant woman is just – amongst humans or in our God. Or do you accept something like Dante’s view of hell, in which there are different levels for different kinds of crimes?

Sin is an infinite offense against an infinite God. Do you Judge as God does or as you want?

I think part of the problem is that we do not view sin with horror. We think gee that really did not harm someone physically so it cannot be that bad.

 

[gracepoole]

Sin is an infinite offense against an infinite God. Do you Judge as God does or as you want?

I think part of the problem is that we do not view sin with horror. We think gee that really did not harm someone physically so it cannot be that bad.

I understand the catechism’s definition of sin. I’m not claiming that this woman has not sinned. But placing genocide and adultery in the same pot of sin – what rationale could God give that would make this just?

 

[Dawnia]

I understand the catechism’s definition of sin. I’m not claiming that this woman has not sinned. But placing genocide and adultery in the same pot of sin – what rationale could God give that would make this just?

Please tell me that you’re not seriously suggesting that God is accountable to you. Sounds very much like you want God to be in your image, rather than you in his.

As far as adultery and genocide, sin is black & white. There is only good or evil. There is no in between.

1749 Freedom makes man a moral subject. When he acts deliberately, man is, so to speak, the father of his acts. Human acts, that is, acts that are freely chosen in consequence of a judgment of conscience, can be morally evaluated. They are either good or evil. (1732)

 

[gracepoole]

Please tell me that you’re not seriously suggesting that God is accountable to you. Sounds very much like you want God to be in your image, rather than you in his.

I’m not sure what it “sounds like,” but no, I don’t want God to be in my image. God did, of course, give me a brain and a conscience and I anticipate that He expects me to use both.

As far as adultery and genocide, sin is black & white. There is only good or evil. There is no in between.

I know this will sound snarky, so forgive me in advance. But I’m guessing that those who suffered and died in places like Rwanda, Cambodia, Darfur, Dachau, etc. might disagree with this view of sin. Particularly when genocidal horrors are lumped in with an incident of bringing life into the world rather than removing it. I’m biased here – I spend much of my career studying and teaching about genocides. Once one is fully immersed in this kind of horror, it seems the height of ridiculousness to place it alongside IVF.

 

[Dawnia]

We have very different readings of Christ’s actions, Dawnia. Your Christ sounds punitive and ugly, frankly. I’d have a hard time worshiping that Christ.

My Christ is the Christ of the Catholic church, which happens to be the only Christ.

He came to shake things up.

32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. 34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter—in—law against her mother—in—law—

36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household [Micah 7:6]
37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

 

[Dawnia]

I’m not sure what it “sounds like,” but no, I don’t want God to be in my image. God did, of course, give me a brain and a conscience and I anticipate that He expects me to use both.

You are right. But he also expects you to suffer the consequence for using them to sin and disobey his commands. He loves so much He gave us a Church to guide us in our thoughts and actions. Thoughts or actions not in alignment with the church is not in alignment with God.

I know this will sound snarky, so forgive me in advance. But I’m guessing that those who suffered and died in places like Rwanda, Cambodia, Darfur, Dachau, etc. might disagree with this view of sin. Particularly when genocidal horrors are lumped in with an incident of bringing life into the world rather than removing it. I’m biased here – I spend much of my career studying and teaching about genocides. Once one is fully immersed in this kind of horror, it seems the height of ridiculousness to place it alongside IVF.

It certainly can appear that way, but evil is evil regardless of the form it takes. You should brush up on IVF. Out of every 100 individuals created using IVF, only 5 will ever be born. Each year over a hundred thousand individuals (worldwide) are killed through IVF. Treating people like they are disposable seems rather evil.

 

[gracepoole]

He came to shake things up.

Firing a woman for committing adultery seems pretty old school to me.

You are right. But he also expects you to suffer the consequence for using them to sin and disobey his commands. He loves so much He gave us a Church to guide us in our thoughts and actions. Thoughts or actions not in alignment with the church is not in alignment with God.

He loves so much that He gave me a conscience and the tools to inform it but I’m not to use it because if I do, I fail the test?

It certainly can appear that way, but evil is evil regardless of the form it takes. You should brush up on IVF. Out of every 100 individuals created using IVF, only 5 will ever be born. Each year over a hundred thousand individuals (worldwide) are killed through IVF. Treating people like they are disposable seems rather evil.

Even the Church recognizes that not all killings are equal.

 

[Skwrl]

Wooah, hold up everyone. I think we’re all missing the point. She wasn’t fired as some sort of punishment for her immoral behavior, but because they fear that her immoral choice (which is essentially public, and which she seems to uphold) will give students the wrong idea and impede their faith formation. In other words, they felt it interfered with her ability to do her job properly.

Exactly how sinful IVF is compared to other grave sins isn’t the question, nor is it a question of how culpable this woman is for her sin. The question is whether or not this single mother keeping her job is more important than the Church’s obligation to teach the faith to its children in the best possible way.

Can we all stop talking about hell and damnation now? Kthx.

 

[gracepoole]

Wooah, hold up everyone. I think we’re all missing the point. She wasn’t fired as some sort of punishment for her immoral behavior, but because they fear that her immoral choice (which is essentially public, and which she seems to uphold) will give students the wrong idea and impede their faith formation. In other words, they felt it interfered with her ability to do her job properly.

Exactly how sinful IVF is compared to other grave sins isn’t the question, nor is it a question of how culpable this woman is for her sin. The question is whether or not this single mother keeping her job is more important than the Church’s obligation to teach the faith to its children in the best possible way.

Can we all stop talking about hell and damnation now? Kthx.

Well, sure – but conversations do have a tendency to evolve. I think you’ll find that the original point of this thread has not been lost. Proclaiming your first paragraph here doesn’t make it infallible and there’s been plenty of discussion of its merits and faults.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

This is a matter of the natural moral law not Church discipline. Where did Jesus say scandal is only a problem for people of certain groups?

That’s what I’m asking you actually. I don’t know whether Jesus called out others as causing scandal other than those hypocrites from Scripture professing to be upholding the Jewish standard.

fix:

Scripture must be reconciled with all of Scripture and with the teaching of the Church. You cannot pull out one verse and set it in opposition to all else to make your point.

Agreed that you can not pull out one verse to make a point and that we ought to use Scripture as a whole and the teaching of the Church to make that point.

To ask you more directly: Did Jesus teach, as recorded in Scripture, that the natural law being violated was a scandal? And if so, was Jesus rebuking as a scandalous action directed towards a non-believer?

 

[CaptFun]

Wooah, hold up everyone. I think we’re all missing the point. She wasn’t fired as some sort of punishment for her immoral behavior, but because they fear that her immoral choice (which is essentially public, and which she seems to uphold) will give students the wrong idea and impede their faith formation. In other words, they felt it interfered with her ability to do her job properly.

Exactly how sinful IVF is compared to other grave sins isn’t the question, nor is it a question of how culpable this woman is for her sin. The question is whether or not this single mother keeping her job is more important than the Church’s obligation to teach the faith to its children in the best possible way.

Can we all stop talking about hell and damnation now? Kthx.

Exactly.

Firing justified on that basis. Her suing the Church? Bad bad bad.

She should get money for breaking her contract? And where is the money coming from? The parents who thought they were paying for a Catholic education. And people who put money in the church collections.

Not only should the Church NOT pay her, and appeal … it should call on the carpet whoever hired her in the first place. IMO.

The lessons learned by her students will be forever eclipsed by her selfish behavior. What a disgrace (thinking about suing the school here - I’m a laid off teacher myself - though my lay off came due to a budget crunch). I never thought of suing my old district, which has enough problems.

I wonder if a group of parents** could** sue her on various counts? I hate lawsuits, and wouldn’t do it myself. But they might have a case. These days most suits go for the “deep pockets” … even when the perp to blame victimized that party (in this case the Church, Diocese or Parish) as well.

Catholics are often “turn the other cheek” types in cases like this – and probably wouldn’t want to harm a mother – even if she’d rather deserve it per justice.