Catholic Church founded by Jesus?

[Justin_Mary]

I would think that theological succession from the apostles is ultimately more important than sacramental succession.

Have no fear, the Catholic Church provides both.

 

[mcq72]

No it has not ceased (apostles oral teaching). It is with us today. Some just choose to ignore it

What I meant was the apostles are deceased and an no longer give oral teaching. What is with us today is their written teaching as inspired by God Himself.

I think what you mean is that not all their oral teaching was put into writing. That maybe, but then that teaching would be considered “hearsay” and therefore problematic to being as God breathed. I humbly submit that is what is being ignored.

 

[mcq72]

Cite the versus. No I believe Jesus made no “assurance” of salvation. I believe He said Many will say to me on that day,

I agree with your post, that we are warned about " falling" or not being what we think we are. As I said the warnings are both for the individual and corporately (assembly, parish, church etc.)

Several of the many verses Calvinists may use to support OSAS

“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
John 10:28

"However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” Luke 10:20

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 JOHN 5:13

“For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 8:38

 

[Justin_Mary]

I think what you mean is that not all their oral teaching was put into writing. That maybe, but then that teaching would be considered “hearsay” and therefore problematic to being as God breathed. I humbly submit that is what is being ignored.

Hearsay… yeah, I guess I can see where you get that. But what we have is not hearsay. We have historical documents to back it up.

The Liturgy we celebrate is based on the liturgy the first Christians celebrated. That liturgy is wholly inspired by God.

 

[mcq72]

the sacramental line of succession can, in my mind, be established or reestablished by those who adhere to the teaching of the apostles

Why even Forest Gump’s mom knew this when she quipped:

“Apostolic is as apostolic does.”

( lol, of course she said, " stupid is as stupid does")

 

[mcq72]

Hearsay… yeah, I guess I can see where you get that. But what we have is not hearsay. We have historical documents to back it up.

If you have historical documents/liturgy claiming to apostolic ( what apostles actually said or taught) but not written by them it is hearsay. It still can be historical or liturgical just not as reliably apostolic.

Again not saying everything is apostolic or has to be. I only object to calling it assuredly God breathed…inspired maybe but not God breathed so to speak…I have been told there is a difference.

 

[Justin_Mary]

If you have historical documents/liturgy claiming to apostolic ( what apostles actually said or taught) but not written by them it is hearsay. It still can be historical or liturgical just not as reliably apostolic.

You know neither Mark or Luke we’re Apostles right?

 

[hope]

Again not saying everything is apostolic or has to be. I only object to calling it assuredly God breathed…inspired maybe but not God breathed so to speak…I have been told there is a difference.

Now you have me curious. What is the difference? I understand that it is only used in 2 Timothy 3:16. It seems clear that it means inspiration but I am looking for your explanation???

 

[Buzzard3]

There is a fine balace between rightly leaning on Jesus and rightly leaning on a " church" … Jesus said, " Abide in Me". Yes He also said if you listen to the apostles you listen to Him. Hence the balance

It is not a question of “balance” - the Church is the “fullness” of Christ. To “lean on” the Church is to lean on Christ, and vice-versa. To “abide” in Christ is to “abide” in his Church. The Church is not a man-made entity - it is a supernatural entity and the body of Christ.

it is more than just in the CC where the church is followed, leaned upon, more than Christ.

It would be a nonsense to suggest that Catholics follow and lean upon the Church more than Christ - without love for Christ, the Church is nothing.

If you were to know the Lord and Holy Ghost as we know Him you would not say we have no assurance of His perfect guidance

What a bizarre comment. For starters, who is “we”?

What is ths … a competition? If you “know the Lord” better than me, on what basis do you make that claim? What do you mean by “know the Lord” and do you measure this knowledge?

How do you know you have the “assurance of His perfect guidance”? By what criteria do you make that judgement?

 

[Buzzard3]

So like I said, it’s not just the teaching (oral or written) but also the understanding. The interpretation. You’re thinking “written word first, understanding second” & that’s not the way it works. Ever. Words have never been put to paper without clear intent of understanding being expressed. Never. Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, Jude, & John knew exactly what they wanted to express when they put pen to paper & the Holy Spirit inspired them to express those particular truths in their writings. To interpret those thoughts from today’s perspective is like a 2000 year old game of telephone. To express those thoughts in today’s reality… we’ll that’s closer to what the Church does

For the first 1500 years of Christianity, the Holy Spirit was sleeping on the job - consequently, no one understood the scriptures (least of all the CC, which is a man-made organisation). Thank God for the Reformation! Better late than never, I suppose …

 

[Justin_Mary]

Better late than never, I suppose

He’s always on time.

 

[ArchStanton]

Several of the many verses Calvinists may use to support OSAS

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 JOHN 5:13

That’s the key right there… What things did John write? The first 4 chapters with about 21 IF’s

Here are a few ‘IF’s’ in 1 John that puts the quote into CONTEXT…

“These things I have written to you who BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God”. (1 John 5:13) [BELIEVE – verb…doing…obedience…not a one-time event]

IF we walk in the light

IF we acknowledge our sins

IF anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

IF what you heard from the beginning REMAINS in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.

IF you consider that he is righteous

IF someone who has worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in him?

IF anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

IF anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.

 

[mcq72]

That’s the key right there… What things did John write? The first 4 chapters with about 21 IF’s

Yes, if’s for the individual saint. Do you think there are no if’s for perfectly guided church teachings?

 

[mcq72]

1Jn 2:19

Meant Rev. 18.4, not 8:14, sorry, lol dyslexic error.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Yes, if’s for the individual saint. Do you think there are no if’s for perfectly guided church teachings?

If you are right & we are right there can’t be. If we look back at the writings & practices of the ECFs we can see how they understood & lived the Gospels.

Then we can look at your writings & practices and our writings & practices, whichsoever closest resembles theirs, I would say were “perfectly guided.”

 

[ArchStanton]

Meant Rev. 18.4, not 8:14, sorry, lol dyslexic er.

The seven hills of ROME:

Aventine Hill, Caelian Hill, Capitoline Hill, Esquiline Hill, Palatine Hill, Quirinal Hill, and Viminal Hill.

Vatican Hill (Vatican City) is NORTHWEST of ROME on the OTHER SIDE OF THE TIBER RIVER

Pagan Rome with 7 hills…the Greek word is horos (translated mountain)….mountains are symbolic for kingdoms Ps.68:15, Dan 2:35, Obad 8-21, Amos 4:1, 6:1 (so 7 kings or a series of kings) the heads refer to both the seven mountains and seven kings

 

[mcq72]

Then we can look at your writings & practices and our writings & practices, whichsoever closest resembles theirs, I would say were “perfectly guided.”

Well, partly could be indicative. The Jewish leaders challenged Jesus in similar fashion. Everybody thought they were "in’ with Moses and Abraham like generations did before them.

I can only say father writings are ok , but not to level of God breathed Bible. I believe reformers first looked to Scripture and what people did for the first 40 -50 church years that was addressed by Scripture . Secondly, but not equally, they looked at the earliest forefathers on up. They probably saw some constant doctrine/teaching and some development of such. As you know they (14-16 century reformers) surmised more than a few things were found wanting in their current CC.

In case you misunderstand, I am not talking about being perfectly guided, for we all are. The guidance comes from God who is perfect. Please do not confuse our outcome as a score on His guidance. That is purely a reflection on us. For example, I think Jesus was a perfect “rabbi” with the twelve apostles. Eleven turned out fantastic , but one a renegade. Judas did not receive anything but love and perfection from Jesus. Judas castes no shadow on Jesus. So again, our outcome is not guaranteed , and comes conditionally, with if’s. No such thing as forever church innerrancy on teaching faith and morals, even “infalibility”.

For sure we are to be one, holy, universal, and apostolic.

 

[mcq72]

The seven hills of ROME :

?

Remember I posted your scripture does not fit P’s just as mine are not meant to fit CC here at this time.

 

[mcq72]

For the first 1500 years of Christianity, the Holy Spirit was sleeping on the job

No one says this. Yet why would a priest call someone a “Jesus freak” because he carries a bible and just loves Jesus, and talks about being born again etc.?

 

[Buzzard3]

No one says this.

Really? I’ve come across plenty of Protestants on other web sites who completely ignore the first 1500 years of Church history - it’s as if, to them, Christianity died with the apostles and didn’t live again until Luther.

Yet why would a priest call someone a “Jesus freak” because he carries a bible and just loves Jesus, and talks about being born again etc.?

I don’t know. I sometimes refer to myself as a “Jesus freak” - every Christian should be proud to be called a “Jesus freak”.