M
Montrose
Guest
That is not a tradition. That is a discipline.
The Church does not invent anything.
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The Church does not invent anything.
B
Buzzard3
Guest
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M
Montrose
Guest
It’s a discipline which falls under the Disciplinary Law of the Church.Montrose:
The Church did not invent priestly celibacy?
What else do you think the Church has “invented”?
M
mcq72
Guest
Well, technically, " God breathed", or theopneustos, is used in 2nd Tim 3:16, in reference to inspiration of scripture.
Not sure scripture references the church with that word or if used anywhere else.
Paul also cites the church , the ecclessia. He does not say Catholic Church, or Orthodox, or Jewish, or gentile etc. That is important because as differences come up within the body, within the ecclessia, the resting of such truth and" inspiration" is conditional. We all can not be right on a divisive, contested issue, yet someone has the truth or fullness of it within the ecclessia. So again, it is sectarian to claim Ephesian text only applies to it’s fullfillment via the Catholic Church, excluding any possible inspiration in a contrary position. There is no unconditional rightness but together the ecclessia has heard it right.
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mcq72
Guest
No, but sometimes He writes it Himself, like on tablets.
I have heard this often. Yet if scripture is inspired by God , and Jesus is God, He really is behind the writing. He is behind the writing it down, from the penning of Genesis1 thru Moses to Revelation thru John, where he is explicitly told to “write”.
Reliance on scripture as a rule is in no way in competition for authority with the church, or it’s offices and giftings.
Scripture is the Head of the body speaking.
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What does priestly celibacy have to do with the Rosary?
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mcq72
Guest
If I may interject, I believe the discussion was about doctrine/ tradion development or inventing, as compared to what is in bible or what apostles or first church did. It was posted that the church invents nothing, hence the rosary question.
M
Montrose
Guest
However, we are trying to tell him that the Church does not “invent” things.
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mcq72
Guest
Yes, I read that. Perhaps a semantics thing between invent, develop, adaptation, apostolic, biblical (implicit vs explicit), man made, new, inspired etc…
Even “invention” always has a basis, or uses existing materials, ideas etc…they do not pop out of thin air. So perhaps “invention” and “development” are somewhat related…
Yet invent could be a controversial word in our context, though I get his points.
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J
Justin_Mary
Guest
True, however the understanding must be God breathed as well. As the eunach said, “How can I understand without someone to teach me.”
It is tempting to see ourselves in the place of Phillip, but he is an Apostle, representing the Church. We’re the eunach, who can read but doesn’t understand. Not the way it is meant to be understood.
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mcq72
Guest
Correct, and I would not stop there…agree, divinely written, receieved, understood, kept, preserved.
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Justin_Mary
Guest
Exactly. The purpose Jesus established the Church.
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mcq72
Guest
Yes and no…disagree with CC going right back to OT, Jewish classes of priests etc.
I would say it is not tempting but we are admonished to be like Philip or Paul or Peter, even Jesus when it comes to preaching, sharing what we have been divinely given. We (disciples) are all His ambassadors, His finger on the Earth, right? We are to be apostolic at the very least.
We were the eunach.Now we have the unction of the Holy Ghost, just as the eunich had after hearing and believing, even unto baptism, being given the mind of Christ. Yet no one is beyond learning the depths of His salvation, as per many sources.
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ArchStanton
Guest
How do you explain a group of pastors from different denominations [Baptist, Methodist, Non-denominational, Lutheran, etc] all claiming to be led by the HS as they preach a different message.
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hope
Guest
The head is always Jesus. The head is what guides. Jesus is the head of the Church. You are correct that Scripture is inspired by God. But not all writings are inspired. The writing ascribed to Barnabas for instance. Why do we know what writing are inspired by God? Because Jesus left us with a Church to guide us not a book. Jesus made the Pope the visible head of His Church. God did write the commandments on stone but Jesus did not ask for anything to be written instead He said go and teach.
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Justin_Mary
Guest
In a different sense, yes.
But first you have to recognize the authority, given by Christ, to the Apostles & by the Apostles to the bishop. & it’s only In the Church (by proxy the bishop) That it is…
Outside the Church it is subject to error & error leavens the whole lump.
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Buzzard3
Guest
You seem to getting all upset over my use of the word “invented”. The Church invented lots of traditions and disciplines -
The Rosary.
Rosary heads.
Celebrating the Assumption on Aug 15.
Public parades and feast days for saints.
The sign of the Cross.
Holy water.
Statues of saints.
Eucharistic Adoration.
Celibacy for prist and relgious.
Priestly garments.
Nuns’ habits.
Monasteries and convents.
Celebrating Easter and Xmas on days that coincided with pagan feast days.
The Bishops mitre.
The liturgy of the Mass.
Abstaining from meat on Fridays.
Fasting before Mass.
Lighting a candle as a form of prayer.
… not to mention the various traditions practised by the twenty-odd different Catholic Rites that exist in the world.
There’s nothing at all wrong with “inventing” disciples and traditions, as long as they don’t contradict anything the Church teaches.
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M
Montrose
Guest
You should not use the word “invent”. What you listed are not inventions.
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pablope
Guest
Are you familiar with what st Paul wrote about celibacy? He’s the inventor of it. Do you have issues with celibacy?Montrose:
The Church did not invent priestly celibacy?
Who invented the Rosary?
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