Catholic Church founded by Jesus?

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Montrose said:
Christ cannot be separated from his divinity.
When you receive the body, blood and soul of Christ you also receive his divinity.
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I eat Him spiritually, His divinity. I then also get the rest then, the Incarnate One.
 
Montrose said:
Christ cannot be separated from his divinity.
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“Then please tell me where Jesus says the loaf and cup are His body, blood, soul and divinity”…i asked this because you implied was not at the last supper.
 
mcq72 said:
Those that took it literally were carnal and were not believers from the beginning.

Not sure about the assumption that they got it right, a literal reading.It is like saying a non believer can get it right.
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No. Those who left were carnal. Don’t switch the text.

And non-believers get the commandment not to murder right.
 
mcq72 said:
Yes, we literally eat Him figuratively, in a truly unbloody, spiritual manner, leaving teeth and belly behind, replaced by active faith.
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:roll_eyes: When He said this is My Body, He meant this is My Body: He held Himself in His holy and vernable Hands. His Body is REAL FOOD.
 
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brianjmc1 said:
How do YOU know YOU are interpreting scripture correctly? If you and a fellow christian from your church disagree on the meaning of a scripture line, where do you go to get a final correct answer? The pastor? majority of congregation in agreement?
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I can’t speak for all Protestants here, but I can speak for Reformed Christians. We are trained (from a very early age - for those of us “cradle” Presbyterians at least) to prayerfully interpret scripture iteratively. We first use other scripture. For example - when Jesus says in Luke 14 that we must “hate our father and mother”, we analyze this passage together, and in tension with (among other things) the commandments (to love our parents) and Jesus’ own actions as set forth in the Gospels (how he treated his mother). From this we deduce that perhaps Jesus was speaking in hyperbole to illustrate how our love for him looks relative to all others.

Next, we go to our confessions and catechisms - the Westminster and Helvetic are good examples. We also incorporate commentaries and writings from the early church fathers (yes - I know - they’re Catholic!) to our study.

Finally, we sit down and study the scripture with the help of our Pastors (including Catholic priests) and teachers (maybe even a Rabbi or 2 when looking at the OT). We do all of this prayerfully and expectantly, with the help of the Holy Spirit, as it is written:

“ 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:14-16)
 
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(I sometimes use words that I think make me look smarter, but in reality just show everyone how bad my vocabulary is. Pride is clearly a bit of an issue for me…)
 
brianjmc1 said:
Yes, they would have stayed, cures the sick, raises the dead, feeds the 5,000(many other things that only Apostles\Mary saw so they don’t count…) - don’t think all these things they saw earlier, that this would have scared them off… I mean raising the dead - three times!!!
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"many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did
But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,…for he knew what was in man.

John 2:24,25

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not,
John 6:64‭, ‬

You don’ t see a problem here with said " followers/disciples? Would it be wrong to say they followed for the wrong reasons, and were actually false followers, non believers? I mean that is what Jesus says.

He has a big problem. As a priest would you like your church to be filled with mostly non believers? What would you do?

What is flesh is flesh, the flesh profiteth nothing. One must be drawn by the Father (not just miracles and bread). The Spirit quickens,. One must be born again. These things Jesus said just after citing above problem of false folliwing in ch2 and 6.

These folks would have left by any , any explanation of eating. They were not drawn of the Father from the beginning, at ch2, way before any ch6 discourse.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
When He said this is My Body, He meant this is My Body: He held Himself in His holy and vernable Hands. His Body is REAL FOOD.
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Amen it is real spiritual food, just as surely as the transmutation ( J. Martyr term) of the bread and fruit of the vine are physical food.
 
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brianjmc1 said:
How do YOU know YOU are interpreting scripture correctly? If you and a fellow christian from your church disagree on the meaning of a scripture line, where do you go to get a final correct answer? The pastor? majority of congregation in agreement?
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How does a Catholic know he is interpreting Scripture correctly? To whom does he go: to his priest, to his spiritual advisor, to the Catechism? Is the priest interpreting approved doctrine correctly? Is the spiritual advisor giving the right interpretation? Are you correctly understanding what you receive? We cannot avoid the subjective element in any of this. There are interpretations of interpretations, even for the Catholic.

I grant that the organizational unity of the Catholic Church has practical benefits for the faith, but there is de facto disunity within the walls of the institution.
 
mcq72 said:
just as surely as the transmutation ( J. Martyr term)
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You know transmutation is another way of saying transubstantiation.

For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Saviour being incarnate by God’s word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.
 
mcq72 said:
What is flesh is flesh, the flesh profiteth nothing
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So the incarnation was to no avail.

Jesus is just saying what He’s said to Peter. “You don’t think like God but like men.”

He is not contradicting what He originally said.
 
Did the church fall into error atvthe beginning, a short time after, or along the way for centuries until 1500 years when people said they have had enough?

My simple personal answer and belief is …yes.
 
Glenn said:
How does a Catholic know he is interpreting Scripture correctly?
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For Catholic’s its very easy. To be Catholic(one requirement) you are required to believe what the magistrate teaches. All priests are in unity with Bishops, with Archbishops, with the Pope. Do to the promise of Jesus with Peter as the rock and loosing and binding…

Now does EVERY Catholic believe in their hearts, EVERYTHING taught? I would say, NO…

Look at St. Thomas, he walked with the Lord and still did not believe until he put his fingers in the Lords wounds… so on top of what you are supposed to do, you still need the faith to back it up…

Me personally, if i disagree with teaching explanation on scripture(which I did in my 20’s) with the Church, I yield to the Mother Church that it has been ordained for her to have this gift and she is correct, not my personal interpretation.

This goes in direct opposition with christian’s that I know that they don’t want to be told what to believe and want to be able to believe on their own, reading scriptures, and figure it out for themselves… Not a knock, just the difference in mindset…

Peace to All
 
Yes to all of them. Paul was already struggling with false apostles. Wolves…always in waiting.
 
Wannano said:
Did the church fall into error atvthe beginning, a short time after, or along the way for centuries until 1500 years when people said they have had enough?

My simple personal answer and belief is …yes.
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So the gates of hell prevailed?

Is that what you believe?

You cannot fight error with error.
 
No, I absolutely do not believe the gates of hell have prevailed. We as Christians know that Christ has already won the battle for all time, Satan knows he has been defeated and what his future holds.

I simply have to get on with my day that is going to be busy. Peace.
 
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