Catholic Church founded by Jesus?

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mcq72 said:
Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ … “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” These people were obedient on the doing, mostly.
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How did you work that out? Jesus condemned them for their sinful works - in other words, their DISOBEDIENCE to God’s commandments.
 
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Respectfully, your not answering the question… How do YOU know YOU are interpreting scripture correctly? If you and a fellow christian from your church disagree on the meaning of a scripture line, where do you go to get a final correct answer? The pastor? majority of congregation in agreement?

Peace to ALL
 
Julius_Caesar said:
He clearly said, “This IS My Body” not “This is a symbol of My Body.”
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To add to this, remember the Lord spoke about the Bread from Heaven\Life a year BEFORE to the followers, disciples, and Apostles. This was the “ONLY” time followers(and Judas) left him due to his teaching in ALL of scripture - no other time… Why leave if it was NOT literal?

This also ties in with O.T. (Old and New Covenant) Moses and the Exodus to the Promised Land, The Lord’s Exodus is the new Promised Land - Heaven… Both using the Jewish Passover.

Funny how much I forget the Old Testament ties in with the New Testament…
 
Buzzard3 said:
How did you work that out? Jesus condemned them for their sinful works - in other words, their DISOBEDIENCE to God’s commandments.
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Ok
So it is disobedient to pray for and heal the sick, cast out demons. And speak for God prophetically ???

Where were they disobedient? What was their inequity? What commands did they break? What on the to do list did they neglect?

David committed murder and adultery? Was he not disobedient?

The five foolish virgins carried their lamps and apparently went hand in hand to wait with the wise virgins to wait upon the Lord/ Groom. What commands did they break?

Are you sure it was condemnation for sinful works ?

You are in a conundrum, probably due to the strongly engrained paradigm of the to do list and not to do list as a basis for righteousness.

The answer is very much there in those texts, but impossible to see through such religious eyes. Hence the drunkard and prostitute get into heaven first.
 
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brianjmc1 said:
Why leave if it was NOT literal?
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They would have left by any eating understanding. Do you really think they would have stayed if Jesus fully explained His death, resurrection and ascension (which He mentions)? Do you really think they would have stayed if He explained the eating in an unbloody manner?

As to Judas, and the others, Jesus makes something very clear, something He expressed even 3 chapters earlier. They, these “disciples”, did not believe from the beginning.
 
Montrose said:
It is his real body, blood, soul and divinity. We know this because Jesus told us. It is NOT symbolic.
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Where does He say it is not symbolic during that last supper, done in passover fashion, already full of symbolic ritual?
 
mcq72 said:
Correct. He also never said, " I am like a door, like a vine, like a good shepherd, like the Greek letter alpha , all the way to Omega,"
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He does not say the bread and wine are symbols of his body and blood.

John 6:55

NAB: “For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.”

KJV: “For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.”

NIV: “For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.”
 
mcq72 said:
Then please tell me where Jesus says the loaf and cup are His body, blood, soul and divinity.
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Christ cannot be separated from his divinity.
When you receive the body, blood and soul of Christ you also receive his divinity.
 
mcq72 said:
Correct. He also never said, " I am like a door, like a vine, like a good shepherd, like the Greek letter alpha , all the way to Omega,"
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He also takes pains to make Himself literal in John 6.

Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
John 6:52‭-‬56 NIV


Not so for these statements.

Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them. “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—The Jews who heard these words were again divided. Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?” But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
John 10:6‭, ‬14‭, ‬19‭-‬21 NIV


We are told explicitly when He is metaphorical. Not so in John 6.
 
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Montrose said:
NAB: “For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.”

KJV: “For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.”

NIV: “For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
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This is more true in a symbolic spiritual way. Otherwise it is merely a cannibalistic admonition.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
We are told explicitly when He is metaphorical. Not so in John 6
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Those that took it literally were carnal and were not believers from the beginning.

Not sure about the assumption that they got it right, a literal reading.It is like saying a non believer can get it right.
 
mcq72 said:
Do you really think they would have stayed if Jesus fully explained His death, resurrection and ascension (which He mentions)?
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Yes, they would have stayed, cures the sick, raises the dead, feeds the 5,000(many other things that only Apostles\Mary saw so they don’t count…) - don’t think all these things they saw earlier, that this would have scared them off… I mean raising the dead - three times!!!

Why was this described as a HARD teaching? If figuratively - not hard at all… This was a year earlier then the Last Supper.

As far as the vine, the door - that’s a weak comparison(IMHO). He doesn’t follow up and say, here are my leaves, feel them, or open and close my hinges… He couldn’t be more to the point with the entire explanation of Bread of Life discourse… Again, why was this described as a HARD teaching?

To follow up, what did the early Christians do, described in the early writings outside the bible? Now take the christian doctrine’s from recent churches(newer) and follow the beliefs back, as you get deeper into the past, it gets more Catholic\Orthodox like. Even Luther believed in consubstantiation…

It reminds me of the childhood game telephone. 30 kids, 1st one says 2-3 sentences and by the time you get to the end, the message is completely different.

I am not here to insult or belittle anyone. Again, to repeat myself, I have a basic knowledge of Church teachings and do personally study a bit, but at any point I can be wrong. Just giving my opinions - which we all know everyone has…
 
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