Catholic church in Moslem countries

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jerome_ky

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Does the Catholic church have a presence in Moslem countries? I would think you could not find one in Saudi Arabia. What is the Vatican’s position on this? Also, if there are Catholic churches in any predominantly Moslem countries, are they able to obtain sacramental wine?
 
I know that we do at Mataba Jordan, Pope Benedict visited there in '09 and blessed a new university built there. He thanked Jordan for accepting in the Catholic refugees from Iraq who are being severly pursecuted and killed.

blog.beliefnet.com/viamedia/2009/05/the-pope-in-jordan.html

Pope Benedict’s itenary on that visit:

•Private Mass in the Chapel of the Apostolic Nunciature of Amman, Jordan
•09.15 - Visit to the ancient Basilica of the Memorial of Moses on **Mount Nebo **
•10.30 - Blessing of the cornerstone of Madaba University of the Latin Patriarchate
•11.30 - Visit to the Hashemite museum and the Al-Hussein Bin Talal Mosque in Amman, Jordan
•11.45 - Meeting with Muslim religious leaders, members of the Diplomatic Corps and Rectors of universities in Jordan in front of the mosque al-Hussein bin Talal in Amman
•17.30 - Celebration of Vespers with priests, men and women religious, seminarians and ecclesial movements in the Greek-Melkite Cathedral of Saint-Georges in Amman
 
There are also several Catholic and Orthodox churches in Iraq, although with the persecutions at the height of the violence many of the Christians in Iraq fled to other countries severely diminishing their population. Also, many of their priests were either kidnapped, murdered or both.

Egypt also has a sizable Copt minority. They too have suffered severe persecutions that are usually ignored by the authorities or given only a token response.

I think these communities probably get their sacramental wine by making it themselves. Grapes are common enough in the region. I suspect their wine making is done with some agreement from the government that only Christians use it and make it or only enough is made for their services and no private consumption.

ChadS
 
There’s also a heavy and well known presence of Christians (many of them Roman Catholic or loyal to Rome) in Lebanon. In fact the Christian communities there can trace their presence all the way back to the early church.
 
I have nothing against Muslims or Islam - at least not from what I have studied thus far. However, what strikes me over and over again is how uncritical Muslims tend to be about the origins, assembly, and historicity of the Qu’ran/Koran. I mean, the skeptics, I think, are way, way, way, way off-base in questioning the NT. But the Qu’ran/Koran… wait until they get a load of the scholarship on it.

For those who want to know more… I recommend Paul Barnnett’s Is the New Testament Reliable?. The last chapter has an excellent treatment on the subject.
 
Windfish said:
I have nothing against Muslims or Islam - at least not from what I have studied thus far. However, what strikes me over and over again is how uncritical Muslims tend to be about the origins, assembly, and historicity of the Qu’ran/Koran. I mean, the skeptics, I think, are way, way, way, way off-base in questioning the NT. But the Qu’ran/Koran… wait until they get a load of the scholarship on it.
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You should study the case made by KJV-Onlyists. The way of thinking and arguing by both KJV-Onlyists and Muslims regarding the Quran (language and source religion aside) is eerily similar.
 
jerome_ky said:
Does the Catholic church have a presence in Moslem countries? I would think you could not find one in Saudi Arabia. What is the Vatican’s position on this? Also, if there are Catholic churches in any predominantly Moslem countries, are they able to obtain sacramental wine?
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Some Muslim countries have a visible Catholic presence. Others do not. You would think that there might be some underground Catholic Churches in Saudi Arabia just as there are in China but then again, it’s possible that the Saudi religious police have managed to make sure those don’t exist either. :(:mad::rolleyes: As for getting sacramental wine, I don’t even know if it’d be possible in a country like Saudi Arabia unless it was smuggled in.

That said, if anyone knows of any underground churches in Saudi Arabia or other Muslim countries, I would urge you not to mention them as that may somehow alert the authorities to their presence and lead to their persecution and destruction.
Matthew_Holford said:
Definitely not! All religions except Islam are forbidden.
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Yes, this is true. However, I have read that if a non-Muslim goes to Saudi Arabia, they are allowed to bring one Bible with them. Any more than one and they are confiscated.
Byzantine_Wolf said:
You should study the case made by KJV-Onlyists. The way of thinking and arguing by both KJV-Onlyists and Muslims regarding the Quran (language and source religion aside) is eerily similar.
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Yeah, can you believe that KJV-Onlyists will say “If the KJV was good enough for Paul, it’s good enough for me!” :rolleyes::rotfl:

Well, it really isn’t all that funny. But yeah, the ignorance in those kinds of churches is just absolutely astounding. Many of them even believe in the “trail of blood” theory which has been thoroughly debunked. Basically the “trail of blood” theory asserts that there has always been a Baptist or other “true Christian” presence since the time of Christ that has been underground but has also been persecuted by the Catholic Church. That is so ridiculous. I don’t think there were any heresies even that were known to be even somewhat similar to Baptist theology until possibly (not sure about this) the Waldense and Albigensian heresies came onto the scene. The Waldenses didn’t come around until the 12th century and the Albigensians didn’t come on to the scene until the 11th century. And, in all honesty, I don’t think either of those two share hardly any similarities with modern day Baptists anyway.
 
No Churches in Saudi Arabia of any kind, per Muhammed instructions:

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366:
“…I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”
(E)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 716:
"… He said, “Turn the pagans out of the 'Arabian Peninsula;…”
(E)
 
Sam_777 said:
No Churches in Saudi Arabia of any kind, per Muhammed instructions:

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366:
“…I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”
(E)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 716:
"… He said, “Turn the pagans out of the 'Arabian Peninsula;…”
(E)
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no problems for pagans to be in saudi arabia,its just mecca and medina that are forbidden for them…tell the truth
 
bosnian_muslim said:
no problems for pagans to be in saudi arabia,its just mecca and medina that are forbidden for them…tell the truth
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Some people would turn this around and say that only “pagans” are allowed in Mecca and Medina, but it is best not to use such perjorative terms, I think. In charity perhaps we should refer to our separate faith communities by the terms they refer to themselves. I think it would be appropriate to state that there is no problem for non Muslim faiths to be in Saudi Arabia, but use of the term “pagan” is unclear and unkind. I trust you do not mean to be unkind, do you?
 
bosnian_muslim said:
no problems for pagans to be in saudi arabia,its just mecca and medina that are forbidden for them…tell the truth
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The hadith is clear “Arabian Peninsula” NOT “mecca and medina”, the condition for the not allowing non-Muslims to enter mecca and medina is driven from Quran (9:28):
“O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.”

And they put marks for them in the streets:

In the past:
http://www3.0zz0.com/2009/12/16/04/625398983.jpg

Nowadays:
 
I dont know about that hadith,i know there are nonmuslims in saudi arabia…and i know the only place they are not allowed to visit are the two holy cities!

and so what? Athos,the republic of orthodox monks doesnt allow women to come in and no one cares…its their religious tradition and we respect it,same with mecca and medina-our religion tells us not to let in nonmuslims and thats why we wont let them
 
We also need to be clear into what a Muslim country is? Is it country dictated by the Koran or a country with mostly Muslims in it. There is a difference.
 
jerome_ky said:
Does the Catholic church have a presence in Moslem countries? I would think you could not find one in Saudi Arabia. What is the Vatican’s position on this? Also, if there are Catholic churches in any predominantly Moslem countries, are they able to obtain sacramental wine?
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The Catholic Church is just that - catholic i.e. “throughout the whole” world. Every square cm of land on Earth is officially a part of a Catholic diocese and parish.

There are no openly functioning Catholic churches in Saudi Arabia but there are millions of Catholics there, mostly Filipino and Indian workers who are treated little better than slaves. (Virtually no native Saudi arabians do any manual work or any real work at all, it’s all done by foreign “guest workers”.) The Catholics of Saudi Arabia and of the whole arabian peninsula are under the care of the Vicar Apostolic of Arabia, Bp Paul Hinder OFMCap, who is based in St Joseph’s Cathedral, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates.

Apart from Saudi Arabia all Moslem-ruled countries allow Catholics at least some freedom of worship and of religion, though always with greater or lesser restricvtions and hampering rules of many kinds, and often Catholics are subject to violence from moslems to which the government turns a blind eye. Often Catholics and other non-Moslems have to pay special extra taxes which moslems don’t pay, or they are deprived of government benefits which moslems get. It can take many years or even decades to get permission to build, extend or renovate a church, and there are often restrictions on church size and rules such as no external crosses or any sign that the building is a church, priests and nuns are not allowed to wear their religious garb in public, etc. The one exception is Lebanon where Moslems have a slim majority of the population over Catholics who are guaranteed their religious rights under a complex power-sharing constitution.

Perhaps surprisingly it is not that dificult to get hold of wine in Moslem countries, even Saudi Arabia. And remember a priest only needs about say a thimbleful of wine to say a valid Mass.
 
bosnian_muslim said:
I dont know about that hadith,i know there are nonmuslims in saudi arabia…and i know the only place they are not allowed to visit are the two holy cities!
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Those two hadiths used as sources for prohibiting building Churches in Saudi Arabia, not as non-Muslims visiting or entering Saudi Arabia.
 
bosnian_muslim said:
I dont know about that hadith,i know there are nonmuslims in saudi arabia…and i know the only place they are not allowed to visit are the two holy cities!

and so what? Athos,the republic of orthodox monks doesnt allow women to come in and no one cares…its their religious tradition and we respect it,same with mecca and medina-our religion tells us not to let in nonmuslims and thats why we wont let them
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It seems that this conversation has strayed into topic that thousands of Muslims over hundreds of year can’t agree about.

The way the Arabian Peninsula restriction is viewed depends upon one’s education. And it might be viewed very differently by a Shiite or a Wahhabi or Alawittes. . . We’ve had US military personnel in Saudi Arabia with the government’s permission. We’ve also been attacked by terrorists whose chief complaint is the presence of the US military in on the peninsula.

Any any event, Islam does not require conversion nor does it prohibit the practice of other religions within an Islamic country.
 
Orleans_Attny said:
Any any event, Islam does not require conversion nor does it prohibit the practice of other religions within an Islamic country.
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I guess you are wrong on that one, this verse is from the last Chapter of Quran revealed to Muhammed:

(Quran 9:29):
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”
 
Petergee said:
The Catholic Church is just that - catholic i.e. “throughout the whole” world. Every square cm of land on Earth is officially a part of a Catholic diocese and parish.
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That is unfortunately not true. If it were true there’d be no such thing as Vicariates Apostolic, Apostolic Prefectures, Apostolic Administrations, and Missions sui iuris. Plus, some places are covered by territorial abbacies rather than a diocese.
 
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