Catholic church in Moslem countries

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Matthew_Holford said:
That is unfortunately not true. If it were true there’d be no such thing as Vicariates Apostolic, Apostolic Prefectures, Apostolic Administrations, and Missions sui iuris. Plus, some places are covered by territorial abbacies rather than a diocese.
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Yes you are technically correct, I was using the word “diocese” broadly to cover all of these types of Church adminsitration unit.

I will correct my statement to say: “Every person and every square cm of land on earth is under the jurisdiction of a bishop or equivalent Church administrator.”
 
Petergee said:
Yes you are technically correct, I was using the word “diocese” broadly to cover all of these types of Church adminsitration unit.

I will correct my statement to say: “Every person and every square cm of land on earth is under the jurisdiction of a bishop or equivalent Church administrator.”
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Thanks for clarifying. I had taken what you wrote literally.
 
Sam_777 what you shared about Muhammed’s final words does tend to strike a true chord in me…
 
jerome_ky said:
Does the Catholic church have a presence in Moslem countries? I would think you could not find one in Saudi Arabia. What is the Vatican’s position on this? Also, if there are Catholic churches in any predominantly Moslem countries, are they able to obtain sacramental wine?
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I know Syria, Jordan and Iraq has many Catholics and even Orthodox Christians. The Catholics are mostly Eastern Cathollics, Western Syriac Rite or Chaldean.

I did a quick Goggle on a Catholic parish in Abu Dhabi and there certainly is one there.

According to Wikipedia, there is about 1 million Roman Catholics in Saudy Arabia. Mostly Filipino migrant workers (non-citizens). Further the page says that Masses are normally done in private homes as they cannot operate a parish publicly.

I’ve also looked up Iran and there are Catholic and Orthodox Christians there. The Catholics are again mostly Chaldeans.

I think Afghanistan may be the only one that has a relatively small number of Christians and it may be mostly soldiers from the coalition. There is one Catholic mission parish there though, as opposed to Saudi which has no public Catholic parish.
 
benidict said:
id love to see one in iraq. i think they may be underground. see plenty of mosque though. i also know they have a very small sabian group in iraq. they are the spiritual descendants of John the baptist. also a persecuted minority. peace :signofcross:
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There was a very sizeable Catholic Church (Chaldean rite)in Iraq, and were able to practice their faith quite openly - not underground at all. That has all changed in recent years, since the war and they are very much a persecuted minority now. Many have fled and are in Syria and Lebanon.
 
KathleenGee said:
Sam_777 what you shared about Muhammed’s final words does tend to strike a true chord in me…
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Imagine if instead of saying “Father forgive them” on the cross, our Lord had said, “Father, make sure those pagans and doubting Jews really, really pay!!” :eek:
 
What I had read was that Muhammed’s last words were to ‘kill the infidel’…people don’t realize that there are the militants who follow other hadiths and suras…and that many other Moslems are not aware of them unless they are forced to.
 
We need to invade them and make it perfectly legal for a Catholic Church to be built there. I’m sick of muslims. They bomb people, they insult people, they are bullies. They are naturally violent people. No wonder the Christians went in and took the Holy Land from them.
 
Byzantine Wolf…I won’t be able to.

I was on a site that did a comparative between Christ and Mohammed…Then some time later I went back to it to see the resource and it was pulled…but it made a strong impression on my mind…

I think what Sam said about the attempt to do so by Mohammed, but it not done with the personal happenings around him…it seems possible that is the true account.
 
jerome_ky said:
Does the Catholic church have a presence in Moslem countries? I would think you could not find one in Saudi Arabia. What is the Vatican’s position on this? Also, if there are Catholic churches in any predominantly Moslem countries, are they able to obtain sacramental wine?
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Dear Jeromy,

Though Indonesia formally is not a Moslem country, but the largest moslems populations are in Indonesia. We are also the largest Moslem producer in the world (through birth, and some through conversion by marriage, and also some through voluntary conversion). Politically, the Government tried to be “fair” by allowing churches to be built if we can gain approvals from the surrounding neighbors. In real life, it is tough to gain such approval in the muslim majority neighborhood. Therefore, it is also tough to gain approval to build a church.

In the eastern part, it is easier to gain such approval since Christians may be the majority in some regions. In the big cities, churches can gain approvals only in the middle-up regions, because people live in those regions are more educated and moderate. More importantly, we have balance population between the moslems and the christians in such region.

What I am afraid is, in the future, Christian will be perceived as a religion for the rich, while Islam is the religion for the poor. This kind of unintended likelihood of the future surely will create problem for harmony. Indeed, there are some churches build within the muslim majority neighborhoods. In this situation, the effort of the priests as well as the Christians to make good relationships to their muslim neighbors is really remarkable. If this can be achieved, however, even the muslim neighbors will provide protection. Sometimes, we can have a touchy situation, where an old muslim widow clean the statue of Jesus and Mary (without being paid). While doing so, she asked permission and mentioning the name Jesus and Mary with the local term “Gusti”. The term “Gusti” is applied to Kings, and equivalent to the word “Adonai” or “Kyrios” in Hebrew and Greek respectively. She told us that she did so because she believes that “Gusti Yesus” (Lord Jesus in English) would bless her in her daily life.
 
scimitar60 said:
We need to invade them and make it perfectly legal for a Catholic Church to be built there. I’m sick of muslims. They bomb people, they insult people, they are bullies. They are naturally violent people. No wonder the Christians went in and took the Holy Land from them.
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Invasions to legalize building a Catholic church is contrary to the teachings of Christ to “love our enemies.” It makes us appear to be the ones who are violent, not to mention counter productive to spreading the Gospel message.
You may want to watch Partition, which takes place after India gained its independence from Britain. Sikhs massacred Muslims as they migrated to their new homeland, Pakistan.
Muslims were able to obtain Conscientious Objector status during the Vietnam War.
It is unfortunate that the acts of a few extremists has painted the average Muslim as violent. That has not been my experience. We have had discussions of “en shallah,” or God’s Will. One taxi driver was surprised that an American would ask for a ride to Church. This same driver asked “the first American” he had driven to Church to pray for him. I was headed to the Christmas Holy Hour. We pray for the leadership of this Muslim nation during every Mass.
 
Again I say that what Jesus the Prophet said for you is that you are to love God with all your, mind and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself. Since Muhamed in the book written by the third caliph says that any prophet from the Judaeo-Christian lineage could be could not be reversed- it should be done-

If everyonr in the world did just this simple suggestion- love your neighbor as yourself- how great would the world become.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
KathleenGee;7117544:
What I had read was that Muhammed’s last words were to ‘kill the infidel’…
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I…don’t think that’s true. Unless you can quote a relevant hadith source.
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This verse is from the last Chapter of Quran revealed to Muhammed:

(Quran 9:29):
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 716:
Thursday! And how great that Thursday was! The ailment of Allah’s Apostle became worse (on Thursday) and he said, fetch me something so that I may write to you something after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter, and it was not right to differ before a prophet. Some said, “What is wrong with him ? (Do you think ) he is delirious (seriously ill)? Ask him ( to understand his state ).” So they went to the Prophet and asked him again. The Prophet said, “Leave me, for my present state is better than what you call me for.” Then he ordered them to do three things. He said, “Turn the pagans out of the 'Arabian Peninsula; respect and give gifts to the foreign delegations as you have seen me dealing with them.” (Said bin Jubair, the sub-narrator said that Ibn Abbas kept quiet as rewards the third order, or he said, “I forgot it.”) (See Hadith No. 116 Vol. 1)
(E)
 
Sam_777 said:
This verse is from the last Chapter of Quran revealed to Muhammed:

(Quran 9:29):
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”
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That could be the last chapter, though that wouldn’t be his last words.
Sam_777 said:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 716:
Thursday! And how great that Thursday was! The ailment of Allah’s Apostle became worse (on Thursday) and he said, fetch me something so that I may write to you something after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter, and it was not right to differ before a prophet. Some said, “What is wrong with him ? (Do you think ) he is delirious (seriously ill)? Ask him ( to understand his state ).” So they went to the Prophet and asked him again. The Prophet said, “Leave me, for my present state is better than what you call me for.” Then he ordered them to do three things. He said, “Turn the pagans out of the 'Arabian Peninsula; respect and give gifts to the foreign delegations as you have seen me dealing with them.” (Said bin Jubair, the sub-narrator said that Ibn Abbas kept quiet as rewards the third order, or he said, “I forgot it.”) (See Hadith No. 116 Vol. 1)
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(E)

Interesting, that. I did read something like that in another hadith where Mohammad says angrily there shall be only one deen (religion) in Arabia.
 
jerome_ky said:
Interesting related document from the Vatican: SYNOD OF BISHOPS, SPECIAL ASSEMBLY FOR THE MIDDLE EAST

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20091208_lineamenta-mo_en.html
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  1. We bear a grave responsibility …to maintain the spirit of the Gospel among Christians and their relations with non-Christians…
  2. Our history and culture puts us in close contact, culturally as well as spiritually.
  3. Although Christians remain a small minority in almost every part of the Middle East…they are still active, dynamic, and penetrating.
 
Mohammed’s last words…when someone speaks in the Spirit to another, that listener can be in the midst of all sorts of activities, noises, distractions…but when the Lord speaks and inspires through a soul, that person can remember every word.

So far…Mohammed’s last words, then were not ‘kill the infidel’…but nobody could remember…and so I do not see that as a sign he was a prophet greater than Christ…
 
Aboveallbereal said:
Slight spin on the real view there in order to make it acceptable. The real reason you won’t allow us in your holy cities is not “tradition” but is because we are in Muslim opinion “unclean”.
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does christians have any relegious or civilian rights to enter mekkah or madinah ?

i mean what is your problem if you are not muslim and not from civilians of sudia ?

you have no rights to compalin in the first place

talking about freedom , i think saudia have right to determine who can enter it’s holy places . be it tradition , be it command of allah , afterall it’s not violation for your rights as a nonmuslim by any means
 
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