Catholic church in Moslem countries

[wwolverine]

does christians have any relegious or civilian rights to enter mekkah or madinah ?

i mean what is your problem if you are not muslim and not from civilians of sudia ?

you have no rights to compalin in the first place

talking about freedom , i think saudia have right to determine who can enter it’s holy places . be it tradition , be it command of allah , afterall it’s not violation for your rights as a nonmuslim by any means

Elwil, the last news that I heard was of some chinese who were working in Makka on Railway contract. Some of them embraced islam after hearing the call for prayer on numerous occassion. Now where these chinese muslims??? oh no, but they embraced the religion after many a day of work in Makka. So as non muslims how did they enter Makka???

 

[elwill]

this is the second propblem
talking about people are treated as second- class citizens is differ than talking about non-citizens people lives in the country

theire is none chrisrian citizens in saudia to procalim that they are treated as second class citizens

and i’m not in a situation of defending saudia or defending islam , but my issue is that you actually have no rights to complain that someone prevent you to enter his own property

 

[elwill]

Elwil, the last news that I heard was of some chinese who were working in Makka on Railway contract. Some of them embraced islam after hearing the call for prayer on numerous occassion. Now where these chinese muslims??? oh no, but they embraced the religion after many a day of work in Makka. So as non muslims how did they enter Makka???

i know nothing about this news
may be they were there for a temporary time for specific purpose

actualy i don’t know

 

[KathleenGee]

Elwill,

Nor did Islam have the right to take over the Holy Land of the Jews and Christians, or take over Constantinople, the seat of Orthodox Christianity…

Both overtaking of our holy places resulted in destruction of St. Mary Major of Justinian in Jerusalem, and the staking of St. Sophia. I saw a video a few years ago in Kosovo of Muslims running across the roof of an orthodox church, one climbing onto the cross and rocking it back and forth and then having the cross thrown down to the ground before a jeering, whistling crowd…

Regarding the war in Bosnia 20 years ago, I was taken back by all the brutality. But when I began to study the history of Islam and its treatment of the Serbs, then I understood why people have become so brutal there in their ethnic conflicts. What goes around, comes around.

You say you consider Christ a prophet? Then why do Muslims treat other Christians, followers of Christ, as less? What kind of religion is that?..because it brings about wars and ethnic hatred. Christ instead called us to forgive our enemies. It is a known fact that the Christians in the Holy Land have been a buffer of peace between the Jews and Muslims, and that to me is a sign of true religion because Christianity supports life, not death and mistreatment…and I am talking about Christian believers, not those Westerners Muslim label as Christians but who are not.

This treatment of being the conquerer and delegating non-Muslims to second class people is so common in the history of Islam vs other peoples’ faith…

The world is very small now because of the internet. And if someone searches enough, there is alot of history going back 1,400 years of Islam vs the world, and some day people will come together, includling Muslims of peace, who will work to bring true freedom and deliver peoples of faith out of bondage.

You can’t treat human beings that way before God without bringing poverty to yourselves.

 

[Tsuwano]

this is the second propblem
talking about people are treated as second- class citizens is differ than talking about non-citizens people lives in the country

theire is none chrisrian citizens in saudia to procalim that they are treated as second class citizens

and i’m not in a situation of defending saudia or defending islam , but my issue is that you actually have no rights to complain that someone prevent you to enter his own property

Actually, I think I agree with you to a point. If the Muslim authorities in Islam’s holy cities should determine that non Muslims cannot enter those places, then the non Muslim does not have the authority or right to protest. He can point to it as religious intolerance, if he wishes, but to protest that the Muslims are living their own religious precepts is simply silly. In the end we must adhere to the will of the authorities who make such determinations.
However, in reply to your second point, that there are no Christian citizens in Saudi Arabia, what if this is false? What rights would non Muslim citizens have in Saudi Arabia? Would you agree that they would, in fact, have rights which the authorities are obligated to recognize and protect, including the right to worship freely and to participate in the civil life of the nation? I believe there are Saudi citizens who are Christians, but they are denied their rights because they are not Muslim. I would also note that foreigners also have rights when they are in a foreign nation which the host state is obligated to protect. There are many Christians from different countries who live and work in Saudi Arabia. Their rights, including the right to worship freely, should be recognized and protected as well.
Thirdly, I am troubled by your statement that no one has a right to complain if he is refused entry into someone else’s property, not because I don’t agree with it, but because, within the context of Islam, I am confused as to what Muslims consider to be their “property.” Does that include Egypt, where you are from? If so, can the authorities expel the ancient Christian Churches that have survived there for thousands of years? Can they legitimately deny those Christian believers their rights as Egyptian citizens because they are not Muslim? What about in other nations where the majority of the population is Muslim? I am not saying that Egypt or other nations have done this, but merely requesting a definition of what constitutes Islamic property and what rights may non Muslims expect when they are also natives of those areas?

 

[flower_of_God]

I lived in Saudi, i don;t reccomand it to any christian. No freedom of manifesting the religion, while the many ( too many, if u ask me) muslems in Europe have a lot of rights and still dare to protest ( did u see the protest in Uk again the Pope?).

And another thing: non muslems have absolutly no interest in visiting the holy places in Saudi, as for us those are not holy, without signinficance, so, it didn;t bother me at all not to be able to visit them, the contrary, not even paid i would have visited them.

Christians in Saudi are there only for work, nothing else, but they can;t wear cross, they can;'t pray in public, and never dare to discuss christian issues with a muslem, or else they face death. Yeah, so much freedom!!!

 

[flower_of_God]

And another thing: in case you don’t know, the rezidence card in Saudi has a different colour for muslems than for the rest, so just from the colour they know if you are muslem or not.

In one attack in Khobar in 2004 they killed christians in a compound by asking these cards…; christians were killed…

 

[flower_of_God]

**

My disagreements with Elwill are mainly because I perceive what ammounts to a colonial mindset in his vew of how people should expect to be treated. He also ignores the inconvenient fact that Saudia Arabia and much of the rest of the area have not always been Muslim and that in many cases in nations like Egypt where he comes from Christians still form a large minority of the populace.**

youtube.com/watch?v=awSd-Pno1rY&feature=player_embedded
What are you saying? Look, very nice:

Nobody said muslems cannot protest in a country, the issue is the reason and their way of protest. They can protest about the working conditions, anything similar, economical problems, but they cannot protest against christianity, this is a huge problem, i wonder you don;'t see it. Imagine christians go to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen and start protesting against islam.
Is that protest a civilized protest? You can see what it is written there, Jesus is not God, Sharia at Vatican, and I should ignore and say thanks GOD they can protest? Never, no way, such a protest is not acceptable ever.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

does christians have any relegious or civilian rights to enter mekkah or madinah ?

i mean what is your problem if you are not muslim and not from civilians of sudia ?

you have no rights to compalin in the first place

talking about freedom , i think saudia have right to determine who can enter it’s holy places . be it tradition , be it command of allah , afterall it’s not violation for your rights as a nonmuslim by any means

Yes, ladies and gentlemen. When it is brought up that people of other faiths can’t enter an entire Muslim city due to their religious beliefs, we are told, “Yeah, what’s your problem?”

 

[Alcrusader]

Now after the pope asked Saudi Arabia to allow christians to build churches, as there are about 8 million non-muslim their, as an act of tolerance, and trying to strengthen the relationship between Christians and Muslims, their are plans to deport many Christians from their (specially the low ranked people) as a way to size them in certain areas only…
translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&tl=en&u=http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D149000%26page%3D1

 

[Sam_777]

Prior to Muhammed time, there were 360 idols (at least one for each Arabian tribe to worship).

 

[SnakeMauler]

Prior to Muhammed time, there were 360 idols (at least one for each Arabian tribe to worship).

So was Muhammed a good guy or a bad guy? Did he know he was just making everything up or did he genuinely think he was receiving revelations?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

So was Muhammed a good guy or a bad guy? Did he know he was just making everything up or did he genuinely think he was receiving revelations?

That’s a good question. I personally believe it was a bit of both - the enforcement of some kind of spiritual force (cf. 2 Cor 11:14), with some of it being Mohammad’s own doing after the ball was rolling.

 

[Sam_777]

So was Muhammed a good guy or a bad guy?

Muhammed lived for around 63 years, so certainly there were times for him he was a good guy and times he was a bad one (when he killed and exiled many people).

Did he know he was just making everything up or did he genuinely think he was receiving revelations?

That is impossible to know, we will only know the answer in the judgement day, but someone might wonder how an angel from GOD uses force with Muhammed and how the revelation was so hard on him :

*Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
“The Prophet added, “The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.” (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.” …”
(E).

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2:
(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah’s Apostle “O Allah’s Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ’ off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says.” 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).
(E).*

 

[elwill]

However, in reply to your second point, that there are no Christian citizens in Saudi Arabia, what if this is false?

islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm
what i knows is that 100% of citizins in saudia are muslims

What rights would non Muslim citizens have in Saudi Arabia?
Would you agree that they would, in fact, have rights which the authorities are obligated to recognize and protect, including the right to worship freely and to participate in the civil life of the nation?

according to islamic teaching , yes
i would agree that they have rights to worship freely and participate in the civil life of the nation

don’t trust those who tell you that quran commanded muslims to prevent nonmuslims from entering mekkah
quran mentioned the sacred mosque only , not the entire city of mekkah or saudiah
jews and nonmuslims lived in madinah beside muslims as citizins even after the death of mohammed (pbuh)

I believe there are Saudi citizens who are Christians, but they are denied their rights because they are not Muslim. I would also note that foreigners also have rights when they are in a foreign nation which the host state is obligated to protect. There are many Christians from different countries who live and work in Saudi Arabia. Their rights, including the right to worship freely, should be recognized and protected as well.

if you think that there rights to worship freely in saudaih should to be included then you need a discussion with authorities . not to condemns entire relegion

Thirdly, I am troubled by your statement that no one has a right to complain if he is refused entry into someone else’s property, not because I don’t agree with it, but because, within the context of Islam, I am confused as to what Muslims consider to be their “property.” Does that include Egypt, where you are from? If so, can the authorities expel the ancient Christian Churches that have survived there for thousands of years?

Can they legitimately deny those Christian believers their rights as Egyptian citizens because they are not Muslim? What about in other nations where the majority of the population is Muslim? I am not saying that Egypt or other nations have done this, but merely requesting a definition of what constitutes Islamic property and what rights may non Muslims expect when they are also natives of those areas?

why the confusion !
when i talked about rights in general , i mentioed two kinds of rights
1- relegious rights
2- citizins rights

talking about egypt , then their are christians citizins and muslims citizins , not as saudia which have only muslims citizins
according to islam , christians have citizins rights to practice their relegion freely

 

[DebChris]

islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm
what i knows is that 100% of citizins in saudia are muslims

according to islamic teaching , yes
i would agree that they have rights to worship freely and participate in the civil life of the nation

don’t trust those who tell you that quran commanded muslims to prevent nonmuslims from entering mekkah
quran mentioned the sacred mosque only , not the entire city of mekkah or saudiah
jews and nonmuslims lived in madinah beside muslims as citizins even after the death of mohammed (pbuh)

if you think that there rights to worship freely in saudaih should to be included then you need a discussion with authorities . not to condemns entire relegion

why the confusion !
when i talked about rights in general , i mentioed two kinds of rights
1- relegious rights
2- citizins rights

talking about egypt , then their are christians citizins and muslims citizins , not as saudia which have only muslims citizins
according to islam , christians have citizins rights to practice their relegion freely

Muslim citizens, but non-Muslim workers. Unless these workers remain within their compounds, they must follow Islamic law, ie, the wearing of the abaya and hajib for women.
It is difficult for foreign woman to get a Visa. We might cause trouble among the younger women.

Comparison here between Japan and Saudi.
For many years, Japanese Christians faced persecution. Many were crucified. As a result, a secret society of Christians remains.
What is unknown is the number of Saudi citizens who are secretly Christian. How many Masses are celebrated secretly within the confines of an individual’s home? What happens if the authorities discover a priest celebrating Mass?
I am not going to make a direct statement about what goes on in Saudi, other than what I know about women being expected to wear the abaya. I do know that when my brother lived in Saudi, that we were limited in the type of Christmas cards that we could send him. It is my understanding that an individual may bring one Bible for personal use.
Throughout history different regimes and societies have regulated and outlawed Christianity. Priests have faced martyrdom from Japan to Ireland because of their choice to offer the Mass for faithful Catholics.

Merely being a Muslim country does not make that country anti-Catholic. My experience is of very vibrant Church.

 

[Tsuwano]

islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm
what i knows is that 100% of citizins in saudia are muslims

according to islamic teaching , yes
i would agree that they have rights to worship freely and participate in the civil life of the nation

don’t trust those who tell you that quran commanded muslims to prevent nonmuslims from entering mekkah
quran mentioned the sacred mosque only , not the entire city of mekkah or saudiah
jews and nonmuslims lived in madinah beside muslims as citizins even after the death of mohammed (pbuh)

if you think that there rights to worship freely in saudaih should to be included then you need a discussion with authorities . not to condemns entire relegion

why the confusion !
when i talked about rights in general , i mentioed two kinds of rights
1- relegious rights
2- citizins rights

talking about egypt , then their are christians citizins and muslims citizins , not as saudia which have only muslims citizins
according to islam , christians have citizins rights to practice their relegion freely

Thank you for your responses to my questions. They give me room to expand my research on the issue and I appreciate your honesty. I just want to make one thing clear concerning your point about condemning an entire religion because of the actions of the authorities in Saudi Arabia. I wholeheartedly agree with you and do not condemn Islam as a religious faith or those who believe in it. I do not believe that Islam is necessarily the best basis on which to form a free government in which all citizens are treated equally and have the same rights, but I would say the same about any faith based government.

 

[Jehoshua]

My opinion on Islam and in particular in regards to the self-evident state in islamic countries is as follows.

---

I do not believe Islam was in anyway inspired, ordained or developed by God. I believe that the truth of a religion is evident by the fruit that comes from the tree, and in the case of Islam that fruit has been found wanting. Likewise if it is true as i believe that islam is uninspired then it seems logical to me that to perpetuate the religion they, like mormons create a socio-religious complex making society and religion indistinguishable, this of course manifests differently in both cases in contranst to the separation of powers found in other religions between state and church.

Now that is not to say that there are some aspects of Islam that are good, or that muslims are on the whole bad people, I in fact know and have good relationships with several muslims. But from the self evident, undeniable truth that Islamic societies exhibit a level of intolerance towards other religions and hostility towards other cultures unique in the modern world it is clear to me that there are many aspects to the religion itself (or at least its dominant interpretation) that are fundamentally in gross error. This i believe is why all dominantly muslim states (muslims vast majority) exhibit general intolerance, persecution and hostility towards christianity and other, non muslim cultures.

I think it is due to the fact that Islam cant distinguish between society and religion and therefore creates a worldview where all non-muslims are enemies of the “Ummah” and because a xenophobic attitutude (on the whole) allows for a self-assurance structure of the supposed superiority and “truth” of Islam (likewised combined with the death penalty for apostasy [also known as religious conversion]). Likewise this general view taken to extremes by terrorists and fanatics is supported by the Quran in texts promoting violence “kill the christian, pagan, jew etc” thus making it inherent in the religious scripture itself (important in such a scriptural religion as islam) that non-muslims are the enemy and thus supporting the persecution, and lack of freedom to non-muslims in countries like saudi arabia and accounting for the fact that the vast majority of all terrorists are muslim.

---

Now as I said before, not all muslims are raving terrorists and many, many muslims are good people and there are peaceful and productive forms of Islam (sufi Islam for example). There is good in Islam and aspects of the truth present in the religion, that is undeniable. However I think it is also undeniable that the factors I mentioned before are present in Islam, that is a lack of distinction between society as a whole in religion, a xenophobic ideology evident in the Quran and a self assurance complex evident in the first two points in this summary that furthermore encourages seeing non-muslims as the enemy thus overall a leading tendency towards persecution of non-muslims and aggression towards non-muslims (clearly evident throughout islamic history).

However Id like it to be understood that as it is written we are to love our enemies and i believe that this should be so even to the most fanatical of muslim extremists, and despite of the self evident errors in Islam and persecution of Christians.

Pax

 

[KathleenGee]

I pray for Muslims to have more faith in God…after all, the Vatican is allowing mosques to be built, allows any non-Catholic to come to Mass there and in any church around the world.

The Church also promotes the use of reason and education, and the sanctity of human life.

These values come from our faith in Christ. Our openness in identifying common humanity among all human beings makes us strong; our strength comes from Christ.

There are passages from the Koran that show true faith in God to me. But there are other parts of it, when misinterpreting Sacred Scriptures, condemning others, jihad against non-believers…these are false movements.

People do not know that there are Muslims who draw on the writings of Muhammed from Mecca, and there are those militant Muslims who draw on the writings of Muhammed from Medina…and these former writings are not practiced or known by those Muslims drawn to its message of peace and benevolence. There was an initial golden era of Arab thought and the use of reason, the study of Plato and Neo Plato…but the Islamic fundamentalists took control and excluded this train of thought.

NewAgeIslam.com is trying to restore this era of Islam in intents to maintain their own identity as well as move forward as a religion again.

 

[flower_of_God]

islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm
what i knows is that 100% of citizins in saudia are muslims

according to islamic teaching , yes
i would agree that they have rights to worship freely and participate in the civil life of the nation

don’t trust those who tell you that quran commanded muslims to prevent nonmuslims from entering mekkah
quran mentioned the sacred mosque only , not the entire city of mekkah or saudiah
jews and nonmuslims lived in madinah beside muslims as citizins even after the death of mohammed (pbuh)

if you think that there rights to worship freely in saudaih should to be included then you need a discussion with authorities . not to condemns entire relegion

why the confusion !
when i talked about rights in general , i mentioed two kinds of rights
1- relegious rights
2- citizins rights

talking about egypt , then their are christians citizins and muslims citizins , not as saudia which have only muslims citizins
according to islam , christians have citizins rights to practice their relegion freely

Aha, regarding Egypt, some questions;

1. what about the secret police in Egypt?
2. what about the ex muslems who converted to christianity? Can they still have id? As far as i know NO, and this means no social life, no life, nothing + persecussions in prisons, etc.
   I saw testimonies of former egyptian christian persecutor, i was shocked what he wrote, and his testimony is only one of many which i read/watched.