Catholic Church in Spain fights Franco-era image

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However, specific to the aside topic discussed here, again I assert, Russia would have been overcome by the Germans, had it not been for American aid delivered via the lend-lease program. Frankly, since Russia’s agricultural regions fell into enemy hands, and occupation, they would have been starved into submission without american foodstuffs, and the equipment to move it.
I, and many others, don’t accept that theory. But, even to the extent that America provided military equipment, it was still the Red Army that fought the Germans to a standstill, held them, beat them, and drove them back to Germany broken and defeated.
Read Hubert van Tuyll’s, “Feed the Bear”. Perhaps then you will be forced to admit that without American aid, Russia could not have withstood the Germans.
One author’s book truth doth not make.

I, however, agree that America did help the Soviet Union to some extent. Keep in mind that the armor, the artillery, and the fighting aircraft the Reds used against the Germans were all their own, not American. And, the fighting men were all their own!
 
America’s finest contribution to the war was its manufacturing capacity, as “The Arsenal of Democracy” providing the equipment to the various armies, and even there it provided most of the equipment to its Western allies. The Soviet Union didn’t get all that much direct aid from America…

As far as whose soldiers did the most to defeat the Germans, it was the Soviet Union’s far and away. The German Army was destroyed in Russia by the heroic Red Army. From then on, the future was only one defeat after another in the East and the West.

The old saying that “The Red Army won the war in Europe and the US Navy won the war in the Pacific” is pretty much true.
It is of no surprise that those who deride Franco praise the “heroic” Red Army The Lefts love affair with communism continues unabated
 
It is of no surprise that those who deride Franco praise the “heroic” Red Army The Lefts love affair with communism continues unabated
Then, tell me. What army was it that defeated the Germans at Stalingrad, if not the Red Army? Do you think it might have been the 82nd Airborne?

And, are we not to be grateful to the Red Army and its soldiers for taking the brunt of the German aggression, and taking losses in the millions so that the Western allies wouldn’t have to?

BTW, though you rightwingers believe it as Holy Dogma, Russians aren’t all communists, and those who were communists died in battle just like their non-Communist countrymen. Just ask (name removed by moderator) on this Forum.

As a Polish-American whose relatives fought in WWII and who later came under the heel of Soviet totalitarianism, I can still praise the Russians for the heroic task they accomplished against the Germans.
 
Then, tell me. What army was it that defeated the Germans at Stalingrad, if not the Red Army? Do you think it might have been the 82nd Airborne?

And, are we not to be grateful to the Red Army and its soldiers for taking the brunt of the German aggression, and taking losses in the millions so that the Western allies wouldn’t have to?

BTW, though you rightwingers believe it as Holy Dogma, Russians aren’t all communists, and those who were communists died in battle just like their non-Communist countrymen. Just ask (name removed by moderator) on this Forum.

As a Polish-American whose relatives fought in WWII and who later came under the heel of Soviet totalitarianism, I can still praise the Russians for the heroic task they accomplished against the Germans.
Interesting sub-topic, though I am not sure it relates to Franco.

There were lots of “ifs” in the German attempt to conquer the Soviet Union. Lots and lots of Russian soldiers (and Ukrainians, and Belorussians) didn’t like the regime. Had the Germans shorn the captured armies of their cadres and political officers, re-equipped the ordinary soldiers and held out some hope for a “free Russia” and a “free Ukraine”, AND if Hitler had not decided on a three-pronged strategy, AND if he had clothed the German soldiers for winter warfare at he outset, the outcome probably would have been very different.

But, of course, Hitler and his associates wanted a “Greater Germany” including Slavic lands to the Urals, with the Slavs as slaves, if even that, and threw away their chance of destroying communism and its power.

So as not to be entirely off topic, Franco sure didn’t reciprocate the help he received from Hitler and Mussolini. Whatever else he was or wasn’t, he sure was an ingrate.
 
I, and many others, don’t accept that theory. But, even to the extent that America provided military equipment, it was still the Red Army that fought the Germans to a standstill, held them, beat them, and drove them back to Germany broken and defeated.

One author’s book truth doth not make.

I, however, agree that America did help the Soviet Union to some extent. Keep in mind that the armor, the artillery, and the fighting aircraft the Reds used against the Germans were all their own, not American. And, the fighting men were all their own!
Early on, after the German Army had swept into Russia, reigning destruction and seemingly invincible, Stalin, the man of steel, fled to a railway car outside of Moscow, where shocked, dazed, confused and defeatist, he shrivelled, awaiting crushing defeat. But, somehow, the courage of this brave people, gave this tyrant the chance to catch his breath, and this is what this cynical, hypocritical beast did.

Stalin, the enemy of God and man, suddenly revived the Russian Orthodox Church, and ordered the Metropolitans to bring forth the icons of the faith to this beseiged people. Most particularly, the icon of Our Lady Of Kazan.

Perhaps none of us here are giving enough credit to the Lord for saving Russia, when all seemed lost for them. In my view, that they withstood the most formidable army that has ever been assembled in the history of the world, has much more to do with divine intervention than anything we are currently discussing.
 
Early on, after the German Army had swept into Russia, reigning destruction and seemingly invincible, Stalin, the man of steel, fled to a railway car outside of Moscow, where shocked, dazed, confused and defeatist, he shrivelled, awaiting crushing defeat. But, somehow, the courage of this brave people, gave this tyrant the chance to catch his breath, and this is what this cynical, hypocritical beast did.

Stalin, the enemy of God and man, suddenly revived the Russian Orthodox Church, and ordered the Metropolitans to bring forth the icons of the faith to this beseiged people. Most particularly, the icon of Our Lady Of Kazan.

Perhaps none of us here are giving enough credit to the Lord for saving Russia, when all seemed lost for them. In my view, that they withstood the most formidable army that has ever been assembled in the history of the world, has much more to do with divine intervention than anything we are currently discussing.
Interesting. The Germans might have pre-empted it by encouraging it themselves, had Hitler desired it. They actually did it in the Ukraine at first; re-opening the churches there and all.
 
Perhaps, then, this whole theory can be called “Francoist”, since it’s just a dry assertion.
I’m not saying Franco invented francoism, it was already alive and well when Jesus got angry with it. We could just as well call it Grayism. It’s simply that for many Spanish, Franco is linked to that non-spiritual version of religion, a misrepresentation of real Catholicism in which, amongst other things, for some Christ is now apparently unavailable to all but the right-wing.

My point is that the upsurge of secularism is partly the fault of religion losing touch. If we Christians just stand around blaming the rest of the world or trying to turn the clock back then it will get worse.
So as not to be entirely off topic, Franco sure didn’t reciprocate the help he received from Hitler and Mussolini. Whatever else he was or wasn’t, he sure was an ingrate.
I watched a documentary on satellite last night about Operation Mincement, a WWII British intelligence deception to aid the invasion of Sicily. The operation pivoted on Franco’s regime turning a blind eye to a large German spy network acting, for example, as spotters for U-boats. The British knew in a fair amount of detail that Franco’s regime indirectly assisted the Nazis to sink allied ships.
 
I’m not saying Franco invented francoism, it was already alive and well when Jesus got angry with it. We could just as well call it Grayism. It’s simply that for many Spanish, Franco is linked to that non-spiritual version of religion, a misrepresentation of real Catholicism in which, amongst other things, for some Christ is now apparently unavailable to all but the right-wing.

My point is that the upsurge of secularism is partly the fault of religion losing touch. If we Christians just stand around blaming the rest of the world or trying to turn the clock back then it will get worse.
I don’t doubt many in Spain cite “Francoism” as a way of excusing faithlessness. After all, we hear the same kind of thing in the U.S., though it seems to be receding. Those who wished to interpret Vatican II as an invitation to faithlessness and licentiousness were fond of disparagingly talking about the “bad old days” pre VII, when the “old ladies would rattle their rosaries at Mass”, the “nuns taught religion by rote”, etc, etc, etc. I truly don’t think the critics of the “bad old days” really had any handle on what was going on in the souls of those they so blithely accused of “dryness” in religion.

I remember one of my former classmates explaining to me not too terribly long ago how he left the Church because there wasn’t enough “fellowshipping” and, besides, “Sister Martha” was hard on him years ago and (oh my!) made him memorize his catechism responses. I remember “Sister Martha” helping him daily so he could keep up with his classmates, and she was anything but hard on him. Of course, he divorced his wife of 30 years and married another, much younger, woman with whom he was having an affair before the divorce, so my “dubious meter” pegged out on every single element of his self-justification. “Sister Martha”, in truth, gave way to Hugh Hefner in this fellow’s life, and he found a way around the “rote” catechism response concerning the sin of adultery. He affirmed the sin and condemned the learning that taught him it was a sin. And Franco is nothing but some Spaniards’ “Sister Martha”. A scapegoat for one’s own bad behavior.

It isn’t just Catholics, either. The frequent “auditioning” process so many of those churches go through ought to be regarded with caution. The “elders” or “trustees” or whomever audition potential preachers to see if the preacher is going to tell them, not what they ought to hear, but what they want to hear.

So, are the churches to blame for the decline in religious observance? Undoubtedly they share it, or at least churchmen do. The churchmen who encouraged people in the idea that, e.g., their personal observance wasn’t important, that “being a loving person” (undefined) was the real point; the churchmen who had thousands of opportunities to really challenge the selfish materialism and sexual self-indulgence of their members, but who opted for “feel good” formulations that provided excuses for selfishness. The churchmen who persuade the wealthy and the non-wealthy that contribution to entertainment centers dubbed “crystal cathedrals” will save them. The churchmen who provide “drive through” church services and “magic crosses” made of olive wood from the Holy Land that will guarantee material prosperity. The churchmen who tell members that it doesn’t matter what they do in their personal lives as long as they vote for “social justice” in the political arena. But we can’t blame such people and get off the hook.

Nor we we can blame the old ladies who rattled their rosaries, anyone who tolerated their doing so, those who taught principles “by rote”, “Sister Martha” or even Franco for that. We can blame ourselves, and ourselves alone, for our own sins and faithlessness, and so should Spaniards. And we ought not to make excuses for it, not in ourselves or in society generally. And to the extent we scapegoat bad behavior, we’re doing nobody any spiritual favors. We’re only encouraging flight from moral responsibility.

I remember an interesting piece from Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag Archipelago”. A man unjustly condemned to death by the Stalinist regime discussed his upcoming execution with Solzhenitsyn. Knowing how people complicit with the regime attempted to shift moral responsibility and escape facing their own corruption by blaming this or that, or asserting that they were “just taking orders” he asserted to Solzhenitsyn that, as he met his executioner, he would say to him “It is you and you alone who will be responsible for my death. Blame no one but yourself. It is you who will kill me.” The condemned man’s purpose, for whatever it was worth, was to express moral clarity; not that it would save him, but so the executioner would, at least that once, be confronted with the fact of his own moral responsibility; a responsibility so many participants shirked by blaming someone or something else for their murderous acts.

As with so many things in Solzhenitsn’s “Gulag” series, that story expresses a profound moral truth. “No, Spaniard”, we might say, “it is not Franco. It is not the Falange. It is not the communists. It is not even the libidinous, seductive Suecas or anyone else. It is you who live a life of fecklessness, faithlessness and sin. It is you who value your vacations and your car and your ease and your one night stands more than anything else. It is you who murdered your own child by encouraging your girlfriend to abort. It is you and only you who is to blame.”

And until modern westerners face the truth expressed by Solzhenitsyn, we will continue to descend into the pit of faithlessness and immorality.

Fortunately, it seems, there is a lot of reform going on among churchmen and with catechesis. But it will be a long and difficult road before we reach a point where excuse making will not be such an easy refuge of a bad conscience.
 
Franco is nothing but some Spaniards’ “Sister Martha”. A scapegoat for one’s own bad behavior.
Franco being blameless, of course.
“No, Spaniard”, we might say, “it is not Franco. It is not the Falange. It is not the communists. It is not even the libidinous, seductive Suecas or anyone else. It is you who live a life of fecklessness, faithlessness and sin. It is you who value your vacations and your car and your ease and your one night stands more than anything else. It is you who murdered your own child by encouraging your girlfriend to abort. It is you and only you who is to blame.”
The heaped up bodies are not Franco’s doing, but that of the Spanish people of his day. And their repudiation of the Church has nothing to do with churchmen in Spain being in bed with the Falangists.

You go a long way to exonerate the fascists of their crimes by shifting the blame on the ordinary Spaniard. But, someone has to bear the blame, I suppose. If not Franco and the Falangists, then the Communists and the people. 🤷
 
Franco being blameless, of course.

The heaped up bodies are not Franco’s doing, but that of the Spanish people of his day. And their repudiation of the Church has nothing to do with churchmen in Spain being in bed with the Falangists.

You go a long way to exonerate the fascists of their crimes by shifting the blame on the ordinary Spaniard. But, someone has to bear the blame, I suppose. If not Franco and the Falangists, then the Communists and the people. 🤷
If you look back at my posts, you will see that I never excused Franco or the Falangists for anything they demonstrably did. Nor do I now.

What I have principally said is that somehow attributing declining religious observance in Spain to Franco’s rule is not demonstrated in this thread and is, in fact, counter-intuitive when one sees the very same kind of decline virtually everywhere in the west and in a good part of the east.

Additionally, and chiefly in response to Innocente’s assertions that such decline is due to a sort of “religious ossification” which he defines as “Francoism”, though not specifically attributable to Franco himself, but, he feels, was demonstrated in Franco’s Spain, I have said that nobody in this thread really knows the state of the souls of people during Franco’s reign, any more than they know the state of the souls of pre-Vatican II Catholics in the U.S.

I have further said that scapegoating someone like Franco for one’s own spiritual and moral failings is without adequate foundation and can distract people from the moral responsibility which they should take upon themselves.

That’s a long way from exonerating Falangists for a single thing any of them did.
 
I remember one of my former classmates explaining to me not too terribly long ago how he left the Church because there wasn’t enough “fellowshipping” and, besides, “Sister Martha” was hard on him years ago and (oh my!) made him memorize his catechism responses.
When a teenager my three best friends went to a Catholic faith school. By age 15 they had all roundly renounced Christ and remain “aggressive” atheists to this day. I went to some of their school dances, where nuns would bark out orders at any couple who dared dance too close. It seemed as if the school was specifically designed to turn kids away from Christ. That wasn’t in Spain – I doubt whether such extremes would be tolerated in Southern Europe.
It isn’t just Catholics, either. The frequent “auditioning” process so many of those churches go through ought to be regarded with caution. The “elders” or “trustees” or whomever audition potential preachers to see if the preacher is going to tell them, not what they ought to hear, but what they want to hear.
As an aside, the main purpose of auditioning is to identify those “Christian” preachers who would cause a stampede for the exits.
It is you who live a life of fecklessness, faithlessness and sin. It is you who value your vacations and your car and your ease and your one night stands more than anything else. It is you who murdered your own child by encouraging your girlfriend to abort. It is you and only you who is to blame.
That might be just a little hard on the average family man. 🙂

Some atheists may come to different moral conclusions to some Christians at times, but overall I’m not convinced they have lower standards. They may even have the inside track on those who blindly following their religion’s doctrine instead of their own conscience. I think it’s more complicated - for example, having posted on some recent threads about contraception, some Catholics are genuinely confused, and in any event statistics show many Catholics don’t conform to their church’s teaching on condoms.
Fortunately, it seems, there is a lot of reform going on among churchmen and with catechesis. But it will be a long and difficult road before we reach a point where excuse making will not be such an easy refuge of a bad conscience.
Now that many parents no longer raise their children in a religion, we need to show adults that there is a purpose in Christ. We can show that through the way we live our lives, but ultimately organized religion depends on the organization. Both we and our churches need to show the value of relating to a living God. It’s a narrow way and we’ve both seen a few of the many side streets: No Christian Ever Got It Wrong, Blame Socialists, Rewrite History, God’s On Our (and no one else’s) Side, It Was Better In The Old Days, etc.

But if we’re agreed that change is needed then we at least have that in common – after Galileo the world no longer stands still. As it’s nearly Christmas, here’s a slightly sentimental song that portrays a gentle love Franco would never have understood in a million years: Alison Krauss - There Is A Reason.
 
When a teenager my three best friends went to a Catholic faith school. By age 15 they had all roundly renounced Christ and remain “aggressive” atheists to this day. I went to some of their school dances, where nuns would bark out orders at any couple who dared dance too close. It seemed as if the school was specifically designed to turn kids away from Christ. That wasn’t in Spain – I doubt whether such extremes would be tolerated in Southern Europe.

As an aside, the main purpose of auditioning is to identify those “Christian” preachers who would cause a stampede for the exits.

That might be just a little hard on the average family man. 🙂

Some atheists may come to different moral conclusions to some Christians at times, but overall I’m not convinced they have lower standards. They may even have the inside track on those who blindly following their religion’s doctrine instead of their own conscience. I think it’s more complicated - for example, having posted on some recent threads about contraception, some Catholics are genuinely confused, and in any event statistics show many Catholics don’t conform to their church’s teaching on condoms.

Now that many parents no longer raise their children in a religion, we need to show adults that there is a purpose in Christ. We can show that through the way we live our lives, but ultimately organized religion depends on the organization. Both we and our churches need to show the value of relating to a living God. It’s a narrow way and we’ve both seen a few of the many side streets: No Christian Ever Got It Wrong, Blame Socialists, Rewrite History, God’s On Our (and no one else’s) Side, It Was Better In The Old Days, etc.

But if we’re agreed that change is needed then we at least have that in common – after Galileo the world no longer stands still. As it’s nearly Christmas, here’s a slightly sentimental song that portrays a gentle love Franco would never have understood in a million years: Alison Krauss - There Is A Reason.
I said nothing about atheists.

Certainly the churches should give proper catechesis and attempt to get people to understand the true message of Christ.

But I think if someone claims he renounced his faith because some nun discouraged him from dancing too close to his girlfriend at some school-sponsored dance, he’s either a complete ninny or he’s not telling the truth. Almost certainly the latter.
 
But I think if someone claims he renounced his faith because some nun discouraged him from dancing too close to his girlfriend at some school-sponsored dance, he’s either a complete ninny or he’s not telling the truth. Almost certainly the latter.
Either you misread or I didn’t explain properly - that was my observation, lending credence to my friends’ stories of what went on all day every day, as if they were being trained to be old before their time – Ecclesiastes 12:1-5.
 
But I think if someone claims he renounced his faith because some nun discouraged him from dancing too close to his girlfriend at some school-sponsored dance, he’s either a complete ninny or he’s not telling the truth. Almost certainly the latter.
If I had a dime for every time I encountered this kind of anecdotal “reason” for not following the faith (or any faith), I’d be a rich man!
 
If I had a dime for every time I encountered this kind of anecdotal “reason” for not following the faith (or any faith), I’d be a rich man!
Yeah. I’d rather hear someone say that they can no longer see God as imminent, a God who is very much a part of our existence, but rather only as transcendent, so totally different from what we normally experience that a special mode of experience and perception is required. They leave the Church because they can’t reconcile that in their own minds. Sort of leaving the Church and becoming Deists.

Now, if the fellow or gal had been sexually abused by a religious, at least that reason for leaving is understandable, but for those other, shallow reasons? Bah!I
 
Either you misread or I didn’t explain properly - that was my observation, lending credence to my friends’ stories of what went on all day every day, as if they were being trained to be old before their time – Ecclesiastes 12:1-5.
I don’t think I misread. You can believe peoples’ bogus excuses if you want, and it may comfort you to do so, but the reality is that it’s almost always about a sin they do not want to give up or perhaps even acknowledge. Rationalizations come in many forms, but do have a way of being superficial on their face.
 
The resolution to the problem is not that difficult, we all have to get involved and preach and live the gospel. When we die there are only two places waiting…heaven or hell Each of us is called to pray for our immediate and extended families first that none should wind up in hell; we then have to pray for our neighbors, enemies and communities that none should wind up in hell.

We are at war, we are the church militant and the consequences are life or death. This is a very effective prayer for the young who are caught up in a materialistic society. It works, but requires constant prayer that Christ should not have died in vain.

Spain cannot fight the imagery of el Caudillo and the Spanish prelates often seen on news reels. That many prelates had abandoned their calling to accept a state run church is regretable, and apologies to the Spanish people have been made.

What about the Lutheran Church in Germany caught up in the same morass which offered no resistance to the Nazis and the holocaust.

That being said, the Catholic Church in Spain is no longer the same and neither are the people and the times.
 
Yeah, they do need some more Falangist heroes. I’m glad you called them heroes, for that is what they were (and are).

You want to speak of monsters? Here are monsters:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/SpanishLeftistsShootStatueOfChrist.jpg

Did Franco as Caudillo take these men out and have them put to death? What they and their “comrades” did was worthy of death. I won’t lose a wink of sleep over it, and I’m sure neither did General Franco. Pray that God will have mercy on these evil men, and then let them go. There is nothing else to be done with blasphemers.

Sorry if that’s the hard reality of political justice, but there it is. The same fate would have awaited such men under King David, or Joshua, or the Maccabees, or any other godly ruler. Do you really think someone like Joshua would tolerate such blasphemy against the Living God?

Franco stands in the same company as these other godly rulers.
Oh no they shot a statue:eek:

Obviously anyone who disrespects the statues and other material objects important to you and those like you deserves to die:rolleyes:
 
Oh no they shot a statue:eek:

Obviously anyone who disrespects the statues and other material objects important to you and those like you deserves to die:rolleyes:
Are you under the impression that the Republicans only shot statues?
 
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