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Reservoir_Dog
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I thought they were using common sense and trying to escape. Regardless, send more of them to Oz next time.
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Ridgerunner
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Agghhhh! Homework! Very well, then.
First point. Innocent himself, in his first post, doesn’t quite agree with himself in his last post, so I’m not sure which way of seeing it you agree with.
Second point. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. What we don’t know is how that plays out in history. Sooooo, notwithstanding that I can’t know for sure what He meant in detail, it’s kind of hard to be too pessimistic.
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Rich_Olszewski
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That doesn’t mean that the Church will exist meaningfully everywhere on earth. It could virtually disappear in a few places and do well elsewhere. So, total pessimism isn’t called for, as you rightly say, but I’m not at all positive about the future. I believe that secularism is a very powerful counter to the efforts of the Church. Not that I have any idea what a solution might be.
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Ridgerunner
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I don’t have solutions either, but it has to be acknowledged that there are a fair number who are faithful to the teachings of the Church. Among those teachings is the encouragement to respect and welcome new life; to-wit, children. Some do respect that, as one not infrequently sees those who do take their religion seriously and are open to having children. I can’t prove this, of course, but it does sometimes seem to me that government and its policies do have an effect on peoples’ views of life; on the culture. Right now, it seems that governments in the west do not encourage new life and, in many ways, discourage it. Witness, for example, the new “debt commission” recommendation that the child tax credit be eliminated. Doing so would further discourage family formation. I recall reading that if (adjusted for inflation) it was the same now as it was during Truman’s administration, it would be north of $20,000.00 per child. To me, that shows an insoucience toward generation of the very people who could aid, with their taxes and productivity, in the payment of necessary things. To me, that demonstrates a shriveled sense of hope for the future and an encouragement of that way of seeing things; an “eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die” way of thinking. Certainly, tacit governmental encouragement of abortion and denigration of marriage could also affect how people see such things. One can imagine, upon watching, e.g., French youth wax indignant because they might not be able to retire at 55 or whatever, that such economic arrangements might encourage a virtual lifetime of adolescence under the “patriarchy of the state”. It’s hard to know, really, but if a young person is that impatient to sit idly, sipping his wine in a sidewalk cafe supported by others, or doing whatever they anticipate doing, it suggests a certain moral Peter Pan mentality. Why are they so anxious to do nothing?
That’s not to say a lack proper catechesis isn’t a big part of the problem. That seems an inescapable conclusion; and a situation that leaves determination of the mores of many Catholics to the state and the popular culture by default.
Regardless, it may be noted that there are those, both within the Church and without, who elect to act in a “countercultural” way. And it seems, too, that the newer priests and bishops are far less affected by the “go along to get along” ways so many of them have exhibited in the last few decades.
There’s room for optimism, I think.
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curlycool89
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Oh look, it’s the China defence. I prefer more objective measurements, not “scummy dictator 1 was better than scummy dictator 2”.
Secondly, I’ll ask you nicely to tell us which war Elizabeth II fought that had religious overtones
(as in, the current monarch of Britain). (I’m guessing you mean Elizabeth I, but it never hurts to check).
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clinoforms
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it seems that everyone forgets why franco resorted to violent force. these same left-wing groups are the known enemies of the church–atheists, masons and communists. semi-facists or monarchies, as distasteful as they are to our modern american sensibilities are not.
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Reservoir_Dog
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franco was a butcher, he killed somewhere over 200,000 people; he allied himself with hitler and sent over 50,000 soldiers, airmen and SS volunteers to help. This is the monster you admire.
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clinoforms
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so from about 1941-1943, franco permitted volunteers to fight bolshevism–big deal.
seeing the masacre and slaghter of catholic clergy and people in spain under the communists, i can understand his poor decision a lot more than bush’s decision to invade iraq.
i’d gladly take the semi-dictatorship of franco in spain over the dictatorship of relativism under the dear leader obama.
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inocente
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The usual way of things for historians is to wait 50 years until trying to understand what happened, and we have another 15 years before they can do that with Franco. (The other thing they tend to do is research the whole subject in detail before jumping to conclusions.)
But sure, if you want an authoritarian who styles himself caudillo por la gracia de Dios (leader by the grace of God) and then ignores human rights, go for it. I’ll send you Red Cross parcels, you’ll need them dude. You don’t know what you’ve got ('til it’s gone).
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Rich_Olszewski
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Sure. Volunteers. Just like the Red Chinese volunteers who came help the North Koreans in that war.
How many people did “Dear Leader” Obama have shot?
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Rich_Olszewski
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Every Red Army soldier who had to be pulled off the line to fight the Spaniard “volunteers” was one less soldier available to fight Hitler’s troops. Franco deserves all the oppobrium and hatred he gets for stabbing our war effort against the Germans by attacking our ally.
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OriginalJS
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I’m don’t know, but we could sure do without European experts on America.Where would we be without American experts on Europe?
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inocente
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Indeed, but at least Europeans know where America is on the map.
It occurs to me that some Americans may not recognize the Spanish flag, so here it is. Cheerful and dignified, no?
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inocente
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Many Spanish associate the Church with the past, not the present, and connecting it with Franco doesn’t help big-time. Reality is about real people, their suffering and their past, and is bound to be just a little complicated.
It could start here in Spain by emphasizing all that is spiritual and meaningful in Christ. It’s worth a try - the Spanish are big on family, big on emotion. But then I can’t take credit for the idea of a living scripture and a living God as that seems to be exactly what Benedict calls for in his latest chart topper.
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Rich_Olszewski
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Thanks, but those of us who follow soccer already know very well the Spanish colors!Indeed, but at least Europeans know where America is on the map.
It occurs to me that some Americans may not recognize the Spanish flag, so here it is. Cheerful and dignified, no?
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inocente
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Christian charity forbids mention, or that the game is really called football (fútbol).Thanks, but those of us who follow soccer already know very well the Spanish colors!
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Rich_Olszewski
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Exactly. But, If I said “football,” some American posters wouldn’t know what I meant. “Is Spain in the NFL?”Christian charity forbids mention, or that the game is really called football (fútbol).
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Ridgerunner
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Oh look, it’s the China defence. I prefer more objective measurements, not “scummy dictator 1 was better than scummy dictator 2”. That was not my point. And what’s the “China defense”? My point was that Franco’s reign was hardly unique in history, but that it is viewed as unique by many today because he opposed bolshevism which covered itself in a more benign socialist appearance to foreigners who think of socialists as heroic and virtuous and all who oppose them as the epitome of evil, particularly if the term “fascist” can be applied. If, indeed, Franco was responsible for the deaths of 200,000 (which, one assumes, includes combatants) then that has to be balanced against what the likely outcome would have been in its absence. Many simply don’t bother to do that, but consider that simply saying “fascist” tells it all.
Secondly, I’ll ask you nicely to tell us which war Elizabeth II fought that had religious overtones
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Reservoir_Dog
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Well, if you’re happy with active aid to the nazis and especially aid to the SS, and the murder of 200,000 dissenters, then you’d probably welcome any fascist dictator as your kind of pal.
But you won’t have your fantasy come true.
as the OP’s article suggests franco is the reason the CC is swirling the drain today.
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Reservoir_Dog
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Spain adopted NASCAR driver Kevin Harvick’s colors.Thanks, but those of us who follow soccer already know very well the Spanish colors!
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2008/writers/mark_beech/05/15/harvick/t2.harvick.icon.jpg
Caudillo
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