Catholic Church in Spain fights Franco-era image

[curlycool89]

I don’t follow this franco lovefest. He had a human rights record that’s appalling. Does or did the RCC approve of this? Isn’t it a rule in your church that someone can excommunicate himself by his actions? How much carnage are you willing to ignore?

None. The rule is very clear, you cannot being about a good end by evil means, no matter how “good” the good is (better known as “the ends don’t justify the means”). That rule is absolute. It doesn’t matter if you’ve got Osama bin Laden and you think there’s a bomb about to go off, you can’t torture him to get the information (that’s pretty much the textbook definition of using evil means to get to a good end).

 

[nguirado]

Spain under the Second Republic – a constitutional government, by the way, and of total irritation to you only because of the anti-clerical articles, – 20 and 21, but you’d have to look them up – probably wouldn’t have murdered the upwards of 200,000 that franco killed off in the White Terror. That’s a worthwhile trade off.

I’m not following your “only” argument. Are you claiming that franco’s slave labor camps and penal battalions weren’t so bad as hiter’s therefore they are or should be Church Approved?

You Catholics get in bed with the strangest people.

You guys are reading communist propaganda.

The first decade of Franco’s rule in the 1940s following the end of the Civil War in 1939 saw continued oppression and the killing of an undetermined number of political opponents. Estimation is difficult and controversial, but the number of people killed probably lies somewhere between 15,000 and 50,000 (see above, The end of the Civil War).

Remember, communist=liar.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

You guys are reading communist propaganda.

Remember, communist=liar.

You don’t even bother citing sources for that naked claim. If you’re going to shower franco with love, at least do something more than give an opinion.

Here are the sources the wiki article on the White Terror cites:

"Beevor, Antony. The Battle for Spain; The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939. Penguin Books. 2006. London. ISBN 0-14-303765-X.

Casanova, Julian. The Spanish republic and civil war. Cambridge University Press. 2010. New York. ISBN 978-0-521-73780-7

Casanova, Julían; Espinosa, Francisco; Mir, Conxita; Moreno Gómez, Francisco. Morir, matar, sobrevivir. La violencia en la dictadura de Franco. Editorial Crítica. Barcelona. 2002. ISBN 84-8432-506-7

Espinosa, Francisco. La columna de la muerte. El avance del ejército franquista de Sevilla a Badajoz. Editorial Crítica. Barcelona. 2002. ISBN 84-8432-431-1

Espinosa, Francisco. La justicia de Queipo. Editorial Crítica. 2006. Barcelona. ISBN 84-8432-691-8

Espinosa, Francisco. Contra el olvido. Historia y memoria de la guerra civil. Editorial Crítica. 2006. Barcelona. ISBN 84-8432-794-9 ISBN 978-84-8432-794-3
Fontana, Josep, ed. España bajo el franquismo. Editorial Crítica. 1986. Barcelona. ISBN 84-8432-057-X

Graham, Helen. The Spanish Civil War. A Very Short Introduction. Oxford University Press. 2005. ISBN 978-0-19-280377-1

Jackson, Gabriel. The Spanish Republic and the Civil War, 1931-1939. Princenton University Press. 1967. Princenton. ISBN 0-691-00757-8

Juliá, Santos; Casanova, Julián; Solé I Sabaté, Josep Maria; Villarroya, Joan; and Moreno, Francisco. Victimas de la guerra civil. Ediciones Temas de Hoy. 1999. Madrid. ISBN 84-7880-983-X

Moreno Gómez, Francisco. 1936: el genocidio franquista en Córdoba. Editorial Crítica. Barcelona. 2008. ISBN 978-84-7423-686-6

Preston, Paul. The Spanish Civil War. Reaction, revolution & revenge. Harper Perennial. 2006. London. ISBN 978-0-00-723207-9 ISBN 0-00-723207-1

Richards, Michael. A Time of Silence: Civil War and the Culture of Repression in Franco’s Spain, 1936-1945. Cambridge University Press. 1998.

Sender Barayón, Ramon. A death in Zamora. Calm unity press. 2003. ISBN 1-58898-789-2
Serrano, Secundino. Maquis. Historia de una guerrilla antifranquista. Ediciones Temas de hoy. 2001. ISBN 84-8460-370-9

Southworth, Herbert R. El mito de la cruzada de Franco. Random House Mondadori. 2008. Barcelona. ISBN 978-84-8346-574-5

Thomas, Hugh. The Spanish Civil War. Penguin Books. London. 2001. ISBN 978-0-14-101161-5

Many of the books of the Documentos collection, edited by the Galician publisher Ediciós do Castro."

So let me ask you the same question that other franco lovers keep dodging: did or does the Church approve of his regime?

 

[Miel]

**The Spaniards were neither fighting for Franco nor the Reds, they were fighting for the Republic.

If you will remember the thinking of Europe at the rise of Hitler, they said give him Chechoslovakia, , give him this nation instead of us and so Hitler bombed Spain. The bombing of Guernica is a famous mural depicting that bombing of a defenseless peoples, but why Guernica? Guernica is the sight of a great oak tree where the Fueros of Rights of the people were honored, The Magna Carta of Spain much older than the English Magna Carta. Mussolini invaded Spain and positioned his troops. The issue was settled when Franco, from the Spanish Foreign Legion, who was to be their ally took their place. But when push came to shove, Franco was neutral doing WWII
The issue for the Republic was the same. They sought allies in Europe, but they were too busy dodging Hitler and turned their backs. Franco was armed, the fledgling Republic was not and so they accepted arms from the Reds. The Spaniards did not count in the Civil War, it became a massive bloody war between the power of the Fascists vs the Reds.
During WWII Spain gave asylum to Ashkenazi Jews, but is heavily criticized for too little effort. It should be noted that Franco is a Spanish Jewish surname, but he was not a religious man at all, he was a soldier.
His early years were more brutal, but he embraced the Catholic Church hoping to gain legitimacy in a very energetic way, after all the Reds would not.
Did his protection of the Church bring about change, Yes, it did. Franco gradually mellowed and became known not as a dictadura but a dicta blanda, what was termed a bureauocracy of and for the bureauocracy. I was there during his waning years and the country was full of hope and still religious. Although church attendance had fallen, the social structure was very Catholic, Celebration of Saints’ Days was uppermost, processions with penitants carrying crosses was yet practiced, praying was very much in, the Family was strong.
They still remember the years of hunger after the war when the borders were sealed and an economic depression set in for three decades.
Conservatism is growing in strength, the flirt with Zapatero has lost it’s lure.
But photos of Franco promoting the Church are still problematic during the years of hunger

Pope Benedict’s visit drew about 365,000 to the Sagrada Familia and about 60,000 to Santiago de Compostela. The Sagrada Familia mass had the leading conservatives in attendance among whom there is a push for christian values.
The Sagrada Familia is now a Basilica and is gorgeous. It dominates the skyline of Barcelona. Antoni Gaudi, the architect is buried in it’s crypt and has been considered for canonization. Santiago de Compostela holds the relics of the Apostle St James, brother of St. John and is in a more remote and less populated area, it is the destination of Pilgrims hoping to follow the Way of St. James…**

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

How many death camps did Franco allow on Spanish soil?

How many Jews did he allow to stay in Spain? very few. He allowed the rest only to transit Spain enroute to elsewhere.

Perhaps the Polish people would have been much better off had Franco been in charge.

Of the death camps?

If not for Ronald Reagan Poland would still be a puppet of the Soviet Union’s.

I will not dignify that insult to Poland with an answer.

You criticized Reagan in his presence at your own risk

At my own risk? He’s bigger and stronger than me? You don’t know what I look like to be able to say that. Was he a member of G.R.O.M.?

 

[Miel]

Olzewski

There remains in Spain an Ashkenzi community till today as separate and distinct from the Spanish Jews who still reunite in Spain every year

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Olzewski

There remains in Spain an Ashkenzi community till today as separate and distinct from the Spanish Jews who still reunite in Spain every year

Sephardic Jews have always been there, yes. When were Ashkenazi Jews allowed to live there? Their language, Yiddish, their customs and even their diet are entirely different from the Ladino-speaking Sephardim, And how large is the Ashkenazi community in Spain?

 

[Miel]

Rich Olszewski

It has been a long time since I read the article about the Ashkenazi in Spain who remain.

But then the oldest Jewish Quarter with the Star of David remains in perfect condition I believe in Gerona…Then I have recently seen in tact Sephardic communities in quite a few towns in Spain. The Sephardim are very clannish and do not mix much with other Jews or Christians for that matter. The most famous Sephardic Jew of course, is Christopher Columbus

 

[Miel]

Rich

The Ethnic GNome Project

ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/are-all-ashkenazim-partly-sephardi/:)

 

[Adeodatus]

You guys are reading communist propaganda.

Remember, communist=liar.

I’ve been saying the same thing for some time now. Don’t expect anyone to listen. If someone expresses admiration for some nun-raping, church-burning gang of Communists, you can expect them to get a pass. Express admiration for Roman Catholic patriot like Joseph McCarthy and you can expect to get pilloried.

This is due to the gains the Marxists have made with their cultural strategy in Western educational institutions. See Gramsci, Lukacs, et al.

There’s really very little use in even discussing it.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

It has been a long time since I read the article about the Ashkenazi in Spain who remain.

But then the oldest Jewish Quarter with the Star of David remains in perfect condition I believe in Gerona…Then I have recently seen in tact Sephardic communities in quite a few towns in Spain. The Sephardim are very clannish and do not mix much with other Jews or Christians for that matter. The most famous Sephardic Jew of course, is Christopher Columbus

It hasn’t changed. In Brooklyn, for example, the Sephardic Jews are just as clannish to this day. I have Jewish in-laws and they don’t even know any Sephardim.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

If someone expresses admiration for some nun-raping, church-burning gang of Communists,

Where is this being done? .

Express admiration for Roman Catholic patriot like Joseph McCarthy and you can expect to get pilloried.

And deservedly so. But, this is not a thread about that disgraced politician.

There’s really very little use in even discussing it.

Quite so.

 

[Miel]

Rich

Woodmere Long Island is a huge Sephardic Jewish community. They are Sephardic Orthodox and that would be a factor

 

[Miel]

The first Jewish community in the New World was in Cuba, these same Sephardics founded the Jewish Community in Manhattan

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Rich

Woodmere Long Island is a huge Sephardic Jewish community. They are Sephardic Orthodox and that would be a factor

The Sephardic community I know of is in the Gravesend section of Brooklyn, running east from McDonald Avenue. I agree that some are more secular than others.

 

[Miel]

As to Franco

He was the lesser of the other two evils, Hitler or Stalinism.

The losers were the Spaniards suffering the loss of their dreams, two decades of poverty, they nevertheless were snatched from the jaws of Hitler and Communism.

Today there choice is to embrace their Catholic roots and turn back to Jesus in order to do battle with the evils of Atheism and Islamism

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

As to Franco

He was the lesser of the other two evils, Hitler or Stalinism.

Some endorsement!

Today there choice is to embrace their Catholic roots and turn back to Jesus in order to do battle with the evils of Atheism and Islamism

I don’t see them choosing to do that. The Church allowed itself to be damaged so much that it might be impossible to repair. Yes, eastern Europe became Stalin’s victim, but he’s gone, and the Church survived and thrived even under that adversity, and thrives today.

 

[Kaninchen]

While I’m happy to row about Franco anytime, might I suggest that arguing about whether he was a naughty boy or not is something of a diversion.

The Church in Spain clearly has a problem, not with the denizens of CAF but with the people of Spain and the message to the latter that Franco was really nice and good and stuff like that wouldn’t have seemed to have worked.

Perhaps ‘where does the Church go from here?’ might be more useful?

 

[clinoforms]

Today there choice is to embrace their Catholic roots and turn back to Jesus in order to do battle with the evils of Atheism and Islamism

this is what franco tried to do. but spain being the liberal bashtion of secularism rather paints franco as the enemy. he was the one who defended and protected the catholic church in spain under attacks from the aethists, communists and masons–who killed over 6,000 catholic clergy! the more i read about him, the more i like him. he may be a hero. franco is treated by today’s armchair quarterbacks unjustly like joseph mccarthy and pius xii.

spain is not the united states which developed early on to accomidate multiple faiths. in spain, traditionally, catholicism was the offical state religion.

 

[Miel]

The Partido Popular under Mariano Rajoy seems to be gaining in strength, the party of Aznar. The Socialists under Zapatero seem to be weakening.

The Catholic Church in Spain is much smaller but much more committed.

If the Populars PP get in there is hope