Catholic Church in Spain fights Franco-era image

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You would have been a martyr in that situation. I am full of admiration for you, there were so few who actually took your brave decision. Bravo!
I have no desire to die for any political cause - the Navy missed its opportunity to invite me to do so when I was in – but I’m really puzzled why anyone would want to die for franco’s, or serve in his regime.

The idea of participating in the white terror should be nauseating to you, or any Catholic, for that matter.
 
There is no agreement on how many died or who or what killed them. Nobody even knows how many Americans died, and one would think at least that would be known for sure. Deaths of foreign troops are wildly varied. Estimates of all kinds vary massively. Given that media people and academics tend to favor the Republicans as a sort of romantic myth, a la “The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie” the following are still surprisingly varied.

◦Hugh Thomas, The Spanish Civil War (1977) (cited at length by both Paul Johnson and JAS Grenville):
■Republicans killed in combat: 110,000
■Nationalists killed in combat: 90,000
■Executed by Nationalists: 75,000
■Executed by Republicans: 55,000
■Bombs: 10,000
■Malnutrition: 25,000
■TOTAL: 365,000
◦Gabriel Jackson, The Spanish Republic and the Civil War 1931-39 (1965, 1972):
■Battle deaths: 100,000
■Air raids: 10,000
■Dis./Malnutrition: 50,000
■Executed by Republicans: 20,000
■Executed by Nationalists: 200,000
■TOTAL: 380,000
◦Salas Larraza, Ramon, Perdidas de la guerra (1977), cited at length in Stanley Payne, The Franco Regime 1936-1975 (1987)
■Battle deaths:
■Republicans KIA: 60,500
■Nationalists KIA: 59,500
■Foreign soldiers, both sides: 25,500
■Civilians: 15,000
■Executions:
■By Republicans: 72,344
■By Nationalists: 35,021
■Disease: 165,000
■TOTAL: 268,500 deaths by violence (adding disease: 433,500)
◦Singer (1982)
■Spain, all sides: 650,000
■Ousiders:
■Germany: 300
■Italy: 6,000
■Portugal: 2,000
◦Eckhardt: 600,000 civ. + 600,000 mil. = 1,200,000
◦Bombing of Guernica, 1937
■Gilbert: 1,645 k.
◦Foreigners
■Clodfelter:
■French: 1,000-3,000
■German-Austrian: 2,000
■American: 900-1,500
■Yugoslav: 700
■Italian: 600
■Britons: 543
■Swiss: 76
◦Abraham Lincoln Brigade
■13 February 2001, Associated Press: 750 American volunteers k.
■Encyclopedia Americana: 750
■23 February 2002, Oakland Tribune: 800
■31 May 1997, Washington Post: 900 (citing Hugh Thomas)
■28 May 2000, New York Times: 900
■19 October 1986, Associated Press: 1,200
■31 March 1988, St. Petersburg Times: 1,600
◦After Francisco Franco came to power:
■Ramon Salas Larraza:
■22,641 executions
■4,000 deaths by guerrilla activity (to 1961)
■159,000 excess deaths by disease (1940-43)
■Hugh Thomas: 100,000 executions
■22 October 2002 AP: new research shows perhaps 150,000 political prisoners executed during war and Franco dictatorship,.
■Gabriel Jackson: 200,000 prisoner deaths, 1939-43
■Daniel Davis, Spain’s Civil War : The Last Great Cause (1974) says that a Spanish official admitted in 1944 that Franco’s government had executed 192,684 since coming to power. Thomas doubts this number.
 
Sorry, I don’t have time to disentangle the quotes in the rest of your post.

I’ve consistently argued it’s more risky to the Church here to laud Franco than draw a line and have done with him. Anyone who has evidence I’m wrong is welcome to post it, but otherwise I repeat it’s not the reputation of my church that’s on the line.

It’s a little rich to argue I may be anti-Catholic. Guess the faith of most of my friends here?

You have taken a position by wanting to hypothesize about alternate realities and then, to boot, trying to put words in my mouth.

I mean, overall nice try, but it’s really hard to push my buttons.
There is no disentangling to it. I asked it plainly. If it had been within your power to kill the NKVD who tormented the prisoners in the Kolyma, and your only choices are to oppose them with violence or let the million die who did die there, which would you do?

Maybe your politics will not allow you to answer that, so let’s do it another way.
If it had been within your power to kill the SS who tormented the prisoners in Auschwitz, and your only choices are to oppose them with violence or let the six million die who did die there, which would you do?

Perhaps better yet. If it had been within your power to kill Franco and his most determined supporters who killed the 200,000 some think he killed, and your only choices are to oppose him and his followers with violence or let the 200,000 die, which would you do?

And I’m not lauding Franco. You can’t find a single post in which I did so. Not in this thread or in any other.

And you really can’t challenge people to defend Franco with the “reputation of (your) Church (is) on the line” without letting that little touch of anti-Catholicism slither out from under the carpet again. So what if your friends are Catholic? Most of mine are Protestant. But I don’t “put the reputation of their (your) church on the line” because of the KKK or the Black and Tans, and demand that they or you defend them.

And nobody on this thread has established a cause/effect relationship between Franco and the decline of religious observance in Spain, any other European country or, for that matter, the United States. Not even the OP article did that or attempted to.
 
I have no desire to die for any political cause - the Navy missed its opportunity to invite me to do so when I was in – but I’m really puzzled why anyone would want to die for franco’s, or serve in his regime.

The idea of participating in the white terror should be nauseating to you, or any Catholic, for that matter.
You seem to be totally missing my points here. The brave soldiers on both sides who fought within the rules of war for what they considered to be a just cause and who did not involve themselves in barbarity are NOT the point at issue (I would have been one of those, I have worn a uniform too).
Those ‘political officers’ who were acting ‘behind the scenes’ and, subsequent to the battles won by each side, murdered some of the unarmed ‘enemy’ populace are the ones we are discussing. Both sides did these things and, what I was saying was that judging by the numbers murdered by the Republicans, the overall number of deaths MIGHT well have been higher had the Republicans won because the numbers they murdered even though they lost were so very high.
The Communists, who were by far the best organised and armed of the Republicans, would not merely have murdered Nationalists had they won but also their Socialist, anarchist and Basque Catholic allies. Stalin did not support his side to provide a democracy, he wanted a Communist Spain. What would the effect have been in post-war Western Europe had he got it?
 
You seem to be totally missing my points here. The brave soldiers on both sides who fought within the rules of war for what they considered to be a just cause and who did not involve themselves in barbarity are NOT the point at issue (I would have been one of those, I have worn a uniform too).
Those ‘political officers’ who were acting ‘behind the scenes’ and, subsequent to the battles won by each side, murdered some of the unarmed ‘enemy’ populace are the ones we are discussing. Both sides did these things and, what I was saying was that judging by the numbers murdered by the Republicans, the overall number of deaths MIGHT well have been higher had the Republicans won because the numbers they murdered even though they lost were so very high.
The Communists, who were by far the best organised and armed of the Republicans, would not merely have murdered Nationalists had they won but also their Socialist, anarchist and Basque Catholic allies. Stalin did not support his side to provide a democracy, he wanted a Communist Spain. What would the effect have been in post-war Western Europe had he got it?
Hard to know what killing the communists would have done. What is known is that Stalin took thousands of Spanish children to the Soviet Union for indoctrination as communists. Later, seeing that he had no real use for them, he sent them to the Gulags, where virtually all of them died.
 
Hard to know what killing the communists would have done. What is known is that Stalin took thousands of Spanish children to the Soviet Union for indoctrination as communists. Later, seeing that he had no real use for them, he sent them to the Gulags, where virtually all of them died.
So just make it up. Make sure your pretend numbers are greater than the franco’s historical record and … you have Santo d’franco.
 
Kaninchen says she is a British tory. On another post she claimed Italian. I always suspected she knew French. Hope she stays on good behaviour.
 
So just make it up. Make sure your pretend numbers are greater than the franco’s historical record and … you have Santo d’franco.
Is anyone saying that Franco should be made a Saint? Why is it so difficult to look at this by a theoretical perspective? The facts are that by the end of WW2 there was no Fascist superpower to offer Franco support; there WAS however a Communist Superpower that had already provided thousands of men and aid to Republican forces and would of certainly made sure there form of government was the put in place.

By just looking at how Eastern Europe and other satelites of the Soviet Union; it’s obvious people would die all the same. The only difference would be the forced indoctorating of communist and athiest ideals into the spanish people.
 
Kaninchen says she is a British tory. On another post she claimed Italian. I always suspected she knew French. Hope she stays on good behaviour.
😃

My goodness!

For anybody wondering about Mr Miller’s obsession about my speaking French and why he’s inserted a comment into this thread. It’s because, in a thread in ‘Non-Catholic Religions’, he linked to articles in French - supposedly about how Jews invented Islam to keep Gentiles in order or something - and I said he might as well have linked to a French sewing machine maintenance manual as far as most readers were concerned.

I expect never to be forgiven, fortunately.
 
Have you ever heard of the Reich National Church. A substantial Protestant organisation that denied baptism to non-Aryans, decorated its churches with swastikas, denied that they worshipped the God of the Jews and fully supported the Nazi Party in Germany?

Does this affect your beliefs? No? Well, neither should the alliance between the Church in Spain and Franco affect anyone’s. ‘Sitting on the fence’ in any civil war anywhere has never been an option and in the face of the horrific anti-Catholic acts by the Republicans, there was only one way to go for a Catholic or indeed any Christian.
Is a church designed by the state really a church? Does anyone who places a political ideology before Christ really have Christ in their heart? Is it possible for something that closed its doors in 1945 somewhere else to have less bearing on our national consciousness than a regime lasting until only 35 years ago on our own land?

My beliefs are challenged (but not much :)) by simplistic claims made by some that all on one side in the civil war were somehow True Christians™ while none on the other side can have been, given the birth faith of virtually everyone involved. As if any large group could be less than human. As if there but for the grace of God.
 
Perhaps better yet. If it had been within your power to kill Franco and his most determined supporters who killed the 200,000 some think he killed, and your only choices are to oppose him and his followers with violence or let the 200,000 die, which would you do?
Can we start again?

I think a central reason for the rise of secularism generally is wishy-washy Christianity, one main form of which I’ll name Francoism.

Francoism is Christianity with all the good stuff removed, a dry dusty belief that fights modernity with literalism, where things were better in the old days, nit-picking about what is sinful, sitting in serried ranks to keep up appearances, follow orders or burn in hell. At its extreme, a Christianity without Christ. I name this pointless ship Francoism because I think his dead, conformist, bureaucratic regime did much to add to the genre and bring it onto the streets.

Given the freedom to choose, if the only options were Francoism or atheism, I’d gladly choose the latter and have done with the whole sorry business. It seems a lot of folk in the West have done just that. Secularism is the freedom they could have found in Christ if only the option were on the table.

So for me, arguing about a past that no one can change has little to do with the lives of anyone who didn’t live through it except as a warning, and at moments, a reason to cry for the good guys on both sides: They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old: / Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn. / At the going down of the sun and in the morning / We will remember them. - For The Fallen, Laurence Binyon

Franco, RIP along with his pointless take on Christ.
But I don’t “put the reputation of their (your) church on the line” because of the KKK or the Black and Tans, and demand that they or you defend them.
All branches of Christianity have suffered from Francoism, and whether there is more of it in Spain than elsewhere I can’t say, but that seems to be the image in many Spanish minds. I’m saying that connecting the Church with now, with the living God, is more likely to bring people back and a lot less risky than trying to reconnect it with what is seen as a dull, unspiritual past.

PS: By disentangling, I meant I didn’t have time to cut and paste your comments because of how you posted them. If you press the quote button on your post #150 you’ll see what I mean.
 
For anybody wondering about Mr Miller’s obsession about my speaking French and why he’s inserted a comment into this thread. It’s because, in a thread in ‘Non-Catholic Religions’, he linked to articles in French - supposedly about how Jews invented Islam to keep Gentiles in order or something - and I said he might as well have linked to a French sewing machine maintenance manual as far as most readers were concerned.
One time in Morocco, just south of here, in the house of someone who saw us on the street (they invite you in for company), grand-papa and mama knew only Berber Arabic, papa knew German (worked at BMW for a while), the kids knew some French from school, while we knew only English and Spanish with hardly any French. Hilarious afternoon for everyone of us. But shush, there’s me going on about how nice Muslims can be :eek:.
 
By just looking at how Eastern Europe and other satelites of the Soviet Union; it’s obvious people would die all the same. The only difference would be the forced indoctorating of communist and athiest ideals into the spanish people.
we know that the church supported franco. this says to me that the use of force was probably justified. i find it telling that the church, who really knows in any given country, especially catholic ones, what is really going on, never offically condemned franco’s regime.

but look who does:
and United Nations have asked the Spanish government to investigate the crimes of Franco’s dictatorship
all of these left wing groups support abortion.

it’s pretty simple: franco defended the faith from atheists, freemasons and communists. therefore those who have leanings towards these evils tend to vilify franco.
 
we know that the church supported franco. this says to me that the use of force was probably justified. i find it telling that the church, who really knows in any given country, especially catholic ones, what is really going on, never offically condemned franco’s regime.
Go tell it to the Marines. :rotfl:
it’s pretty simple: franco defended the faith from atheists, freemasons and communists. therefore those who have leanings towards these evils tend to vilify franco.
Not simple - simplistic. :rotfl:
 


it’s pretty simple: franco defended the faith from atheists, freemasons and communists. therefore those who have leanings towards these evils tend to vilify franco.
So how’s your church doing these days in Spain? Maybe you need another falangist hero to overthrown the government and bring back the good 'ol days.

And thinks for relinking the White Terror article, people should remember what kind of a monster franco was.
 
So how’s your church doing these days in Spain? Maybe you need another falangist hero to overthrown the government and bring back the good 'ol days.

And thinks for relinking the White Terror article, people should remember what kind of a monster franco was.
Yeah, they do need some more Falangist heroes. I’m glad you called them heroes, for that is what they were (and are).

You want to speak of monsters? Here are monsters:



Did Franco as Caudillo take these men out and have them put to death? What they and their “comrades” did was worthy of death. I won’t lose a wink of sleep over it, and I’m sure neither did General Franco. Pray that God will have mercy on these evil men, and then let them go. There is nothing else to be done with blasphemers.

Sorry if that’s the hard reality of political justice, but there it is. The same fate would have awaited such men under King David, or Joshua, or the Maccabees, or any other godly ruler. Do you really think someone like Joshua would tolerate such blasphemy against the Living God?

Franco stands in the same company as these other godly rulers.
 


Franco stands in the same company as these other godly rulers.
Well, I guess I was wrong all the time in questioning whether your church approved of franco and assuming out of hand that condemnation had been forthcoming. According to what appears to me to be independent academic research, franco really was your man.

"The Spanish Church approved the White Terror and cooperated with the rebels.[97][98][99][100] One witness in Zamora said: “Many priests acted very badly. The bishop of Zamora in 1936 was more or less an assassin—I don’t remember his name. He must be held responsible because prisoners appealed to him to save their lives. All he would reply was that the Reds had killed more people than the falangist were killing.”[101].


97 Beevor, Antony. The Battle for Spain; The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939. Penguin Books. 2006. London. p.88
98 Graham,Helen. The Spanish Civil War. A Very Short Introduction. Oxford University Press. 2005. pp.82-83
99 Jackson, Gabriel. The Spanish Republic and the Civil War, 1931-1939. Princenton University Press. 1967. Princenton. pp.306-307
100 Casanova, Julían; Espinosa, Francisco; Mir, Conxita; Moreno Gómez, Francisco. Morir, matar, sobrevivir. La violencia en la dictadura de Franco. Editorial Crítica. Barcelona. 2002. p.47
101 Sender Barayón, Ramon. A death in Zamora. Calm unity press. 2003. pag 233."

We can’t dispute history, can we? I admit I was wrong in my misguided defense of the Church* vis a vis* franco.

BZ, adeo, BZ.
 
Can we start again?

I think a central reason for the rise of secularism generally is wishy-washy Christianity, one main form of which I’ll name Francoism.

Francoism is Christianity with all the good stuff removed, a dry dusty belief that fights modernity with literalism, where things were better in the old days, nit-picking about what is sinful, sitting in serried ranks to keep up appearances, follow orders or burn in hell. At its extreme, a Christianity without Christ. I name this pointless ship Francoism because I think his dead, conformist, bureaucratic regime did much to add to the genre and bring it onto the streets.

Given the freedom to choose, if the only options were Francoism or atheism, I’d gladly choose the latter and have done with the whole sorry business.All branches of Christianity have suffered from Francoism,
I understand what you’re saying, but it depends on some assumptions that are not proved and seem pretty questionable to me.

There is no particular reason to believe that Franco affected anyone’s religion during his rule. Obviously, Spain, right before the Civil War, was much affected by the false promises of communism and the murderous licentiousness which communism tended to engender wherever it took power. It is very interesting to read Solzhenitsyn’s analysis of the psychology of it, and the moral corruption which it both forces and rewards. France, during the same prewar period, was much affected by it as well. It could be argued and has been ably argued that France’s defeat at Hitler’s hands was enabled by French communists and related socialists, who were following the Soviet line during the “non aggression pact” period, and that their turnaround, after Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, was too late. Should religious belief have prevented that corruption of values? Certainly. But I think it’s a big stretch to attribute any of that to Franco or a broadly defined “Francoism”. Those Frenchmen who advised not angering Hitler at the orders of Stalin were not motivated by religion, “dead” or otherwise, but by secular materialism and its false gods.

There is actually no particular reason that I have ever seen persuasively argued, to think those who, in Spain, were not infected by bolshevism, were any less or more truly fervent or believing than were their forbears. Undoubtedly there were opportunists and even psychopaths among the supporters of Franco. But then, what were the Republicans who raped and executed nuns? I have not seen a case made that Franco himself wasn’t every bit as fervent a believer as was, say, Oliver Cromwell, however misguided either of them might be deemed to have been.

Undoubtedly there were ordinary people in the Republican ranks; people of good intent and people of genuine religious faith. But their leaders were not of that sort.

Your description of what you term “Francoism” could rightly be applied to many churchgoing people of all denominations today, and probably could have been rightly applied to many in every century before and after Christ. But I don’t think it has a whole lot to do with Franco, when we see it everywhere.

It really does seem to me that the enemy of genuine religion today is secular materialism. Certainly that has origins in philosophical constructs such as the Enlightenment, Marxism and the Existentialist philosophers of the early 20th Century. Even to (of all people) Hugh Hefner. I think attributing that development to Franco or to some aspect peculiar to him, attributes far too much to him and ignores the directions from which the real dangers come.

Russia, before 1917, was known as a place of real religious faith, and probably was. The secular materialism of bolshevism intervened and now perhaps as few of 10-15% of the population of Russia is observant. Franco or even “Francoism” as you describe it, had nothing to do with that. Persecution and the gradual corruption of a people through secular materialist inculcation and motivations, did. Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag” trilogy can be a tough slog, but I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in the process by which a whole people can become corrupted. Interestingly, the only people whom he really admires generally are the Poles, Western Ukrainians and Lithuanians, whose religious practices then would presently seem “restrictive” to many, but who were uniquely able to resist the corrupting influences of bolshevism under the most horrific of circumstances.

If one looks at the U.S. itself, there is much reason for concern. Abortion on demand is now part of the national fabric. We have a president who, in effect, endorsed infanticide for those whose attempted abortions did not succeed. We have a congress that is on the cusp of officially endorsing overt homosexuality in the military. We have rulers and a people who, at least potentially, have felt it appropriate to vote themselves benefits at the expense of those who come after us. We have a nation that is constricted by a “political correctness” so bizarre that it’s deemed acceptable to portray Jesus as a homosexual but not acceptable to portray Mohammed at all. We have an economy that was brought down by widespread fraud, and from which our representatives seem paralyzed to correct it. Franco’s regime might have been constricting and hidebound in its ways, but I maintain that, at this juncture, we in the U.S. are very little distance removed from something very similar, though less simple and less overt. And nobody got any of that from Franco or from practices like those he imposed.

But none of that says anything useful about the faith of individuals.

Politically, we can at least hope for better things, though they will be very difficult. We can hope for similar things in the churches as well. We should hope for the latter before the former.

(continued)
 
(continued)

But in all things, it isn’t “conformity” that defeats faith. Conformity can be good or bad. It depends on that to which one conforms. As St. Thomas Aquinas said, most virtues and most vices are more a matter of habit than anything else. The very Anglosphere of which we are a part has, for a long time, been successful precisely because its people have traditionally (and famously) conformed themselves to law and custom, for the most part voluntarily. Selfishness is more to the point; the selfishness that secular matieralism today (like that in the late Roman Empire) informs people to “eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die”. It’s a selfishness that disinclines people to have children, with the result that not a single industrialized nation on earth has a replacement birth rate. Not one. People who don’t believe in the future enough to have children, don’t believe in any kind of future deep in their hearts. Not in a worldly sense or in a spiritual sense.

Some may opt for atheism if they wish, in preference for a religious observance which they think is dry and dead, but which could come alive at any moment. But atheism’s track record is not very good. Personally, I prefer even the “conformist” religious believers to those who see themselves as unconstrained by anything greater than the prosecutor’s writ or the policeman’s gun.
 
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