Catholic Church Position on Immigration

[kimmielittle]

Poverty USA: The State of
Poverty in America

For the fourth consecutive year, the poverty rate and the number of Americans living in poverty both rose from the prior years. Since 2000, the number of poor Americans has grown by more than 6 million. The official poverty rate in 2004 (the most current year for which figures are available) was 12.7 percent, up from 12.5 percent in 2003.

Total Americans below the official poverty thresholds numbered 37 million, a figure 1.1 million higher than the 35.9 million in poverty in 2003. (U.S. Census Bureau, Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2004)

                     On average, more than one out of every three Americans - 37 percent of all people in the United States - are officially classified as living in poverty at least 2 months out of the year. (U.S. Census Bureau, *Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2004*)

                     The number of Americans living in severe poverty - with incomes below half of the poverty line - remained the same at 15.6 million. (U.S. Census Bureau, *Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2004*)

usccb.org/cchd/pov/povfacts.shtml

If you are in the Military…Sadly, you are probably at or close to the poverty line.

www1.voanews.com/english/news/a-13-a-2003-01-15-5-Thousands-67286427.html

Mexico’s unemployment rate according to this 3.7%…

GDP per capita PPP US $14,900 (2008) GNI per capita PPP US $11,990 (2006) Inflation (CPI) 3% (2007) Gini index 44.5 Unemployment 3.7% (2007) HDI ▲ 0.829 Labor force 45.38 million (2007) Pop. in poverty 13.8%

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico

U.S.A’s unemployment rate 9.5%

bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Maybe, the jobless…stories we hear about Mexico…should be compared.

.

 

[kimmielittle]

.The last time USA had a 3.5% unemployment rate
1969-12-01 3.5

 

[FaithJoy]

Which makes you wander why so many immigrants come to the US. Is it possibly because our stance in morals,capitalism,and freedom? This is where Mexico is lacking. If the people of Mexico dislike their county’s politics,they need to elect the “right” people. It is just like people in New York and other liberal states, they vote these far leftist in office,they raise the people’s taxes,then they move away in droves to the south(taxes are too much to pay). They come over here,to the south, and vote for the same kind of people into office again. It is a far leftist disease it seems, they know the problem but can’t vote the right people in .

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think what needs to be addressed that some people tend to ignore is big business and local ranchers, farmers, and other businesses that employ these illegals. Both parties want illegal immigration, make no mistake. Republicans can cry out about how much they’re fed up with this lack of respect for our sovereignty but the reality is these hotel owners, ranchers, farmers, and other businessmen like paying illegals cash under the table that is often under minimum wage with no benefits. Bush wanted the amnesty bill and had no problem pandering to the Latino community on behalf of the illegals. Same thing goes with the Democrats. They see future Democratic voters who will be beholdent to their social programs, goodies, and gimmees.

What needs to be done is two-pronged:

a) Deport ever illegal that we can find. People like Obama need to quit saying it’s unrealistic and cannot be done. We need mass deportation like under Eisenhower. It will cost and arm and a leg but think of how much $$$ we’ll gain by clearing up the emergency rooms of moochers, all the jobs that will open up for legal citizens, and think of the improved standard of living we’ll have not having our wages dragged down by people willing to work for squat

b) Punish the snot out of employers who hire illegals. Punish 'em HARD and use the FBI and local gov’t to dig and investigate the perps.

I know most folks at CAF are very, very conservative Republicans. But I will say again that I think the GOP and Dems have equally created this problem and that there is a hypocrisy within the conservatives. They love to chide and diride those pesky Mexican illegals and talk about shippin’ 'em out! But the reality is the big, small, and agricultural businesses in my state of California are creating the problem, most of whom are these Republicans.

There is a lot of hypocrisy to go around on both sides. And I detest the way the Catholic Church in my diocese panders to the immigrant and Latino communities on this topic. My bishop here constantly talks about how we should tolerate an open border. Mahoney and his ilk are even worse. The Church has some real issues and baggage on this topic. Nobody is getting it right.

Deport, punish those hiring. That’s what I say. But I’m a simpleton…

 

[KathleenGee]

Gurney,

I finally got a balanced answer from the head of the Catholic bishops due to pick and choose quotes…he said illegals are to be placed at the back of the bus per se, and must follow procedures…people who come here are to integrate and learn English.

I have been reflecting on our country’s problems…they are so overwhelming…and isn’t that in part due to the fact of mass communication? It is so overpowering it creates a hopelessness and despair.

I cared for an elderly man, age 95, and incredible for his age. He told me he prays to the Lord to keep it all away.

It brought me to this morning that we are ‘over-newsed’…need to pull back in and put all that we can’t deal with out and away from us…put all these problems in Mary of Guadalupe…and just focus on the immediate where you are…following the Gospel in the universal perspective – balanced. There are alot of bad people coming in through the illegal movement.

I was watching a video from your area and it was so ironic…in my Catholic fraternity…it was making out the USA was so bad…and yet here were all these people trying to get into a bad place.

 

[kimmielittle]

I think what needs to be addressed that some people tend to ignore is big business and local ranchers, farmers, and other businesses that employ these illegals. Both parties want illegal immigration, make no mistake. Republicans can cry out about how much they’re fed up with this lack of respect for our sovereignty but the reality is these hotel owners, ranchers, farmers, and other businessmen like paying illegals cash under the table that is often under minimum wage with no benefits. Bush wanted the amnesty bill and had no problem pandering to the Latino community on behalf of the illegals. Same thing goes with the Democrats. They see future Democratic voters who will be beholdent to their social programs, goodies, and gimmees.

What needs to be done is two-pronged:

a) Deport ever illegal that we can find. People like Obama need to quit saying it’s unrealistic and cannot be done. We need mass deportation like under Eisenhower. It will cost and arm and a leg but think of how much $$$ we’ll gain by clearing up the emergency rooms of moochers, all the jobs that will open up for legal citizens, and think of the improved standard of living we’ll have not having our wages dragged down by people willing to work for squat

b) Punish the snot out of employers who hire illegals. Punish 'em HARD and use the FBI and local gov’t to dig and investigate the perps.

I know most folks at CAF are very, very conservative Republicans. But I will say again that I think the GOP and Dems have equally created this problem and that there is a hypocrisy within the conservatives. They love to chide and diride those pesky Mexican illegals and talk about shippin’ 'em out! But the reality is the big, small, and agricultural businesses in my state of California are creating the problem, most of whom are these Republicans.

There is a lot of hypocrisy to go around on both sides. And I detest the way the Catholic Church in my diocese panders to the immigrant and Latino communities on this topic. My bishop here constantly talks about how we should tolerate an open border. Mahoney and his ilk are even worse. The Church has some real issues and baggage on this topic. Nobody is getting it right.

Deport, punish those hiring. That’s what I say. But I’m a simpleton…

:clapping::clapping:

Deport those who won’t document, The criminals ]

Punish those hiring illegals, The other criminals ]

V-card and allow guest workers. Kicking human traffickers back ]

Get the Mexican government to treaty

On a related story

**Banks Financing Mexico Gangs Admitted in Wells Fargo Deal
**

bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-29/banks-financing-mexico-s-drug-cartels-admitted-in-wells-fargo-s-u-s-deal.html

 

[kimmielittle]

Which makes you wander why so many immigrants come to the US. Is it possibly because our stance in morals,capitalism,and freedom? This is where Mexico is lacking. If the people of Mexico dislike their county’s politics,they need to elect the “right” people. It is just like people in New York and other liberal states, they vote these far leftist in office,they raise the people’s taxes,then they move away in droves to the south(taxes are too much to pay). They come over here,to the south, and vote for the same kind of people into office again. It is a far leftist disease it seems, they know the problem but can’t vote the right people in .

I think so many…think it’s a way to get rich quick. Mr. Gates…is not the norm.

 

[KathleenGee]

Even in our own country, the rich are getting richer and salaries have not been going up, atleast in my state.

Mexico needs international scrutiny for its poverty and why people are fleeing it.

 

[kimmielittle]

Even in our own country, the rich are getting richer and salaries have not been going up, atleast in my state.

Mexico needs international scrutiny for its poverty and why people are fleeing it.

ABSOLUTELY

One thing we ALL must remember…The Government of Mexico wants AND supports ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

It receives remittances Which are very substantial from Illegal Immigrants…who don’t pay U.S.A. taxes on it ]. Here is a tool Mr.Obama and Congress could use to help bring the Mexican Government to move on Illegal Immigrants…cut off wire transfers from undocumented workers - to Mexico.

Right now…with the actions taken by the Mexican Government i.e setting up ID stations in the Mexican Consulate and Catholic Church on Santa Cantilina …They are no friend to America’s Illegal Immigration Problem.

 

[kimmielittle]

**The Huntington Beach Republican challenges a consular official at a session where *matricula ***cards were being offered to illegal immigrants. Officials in Avalon then distance themselves from the event.

…

Standing inches apart, Mendoza told Rohrabacher, “We have a lot of respect for you. At the same time, we have certain responsibilities.”
Rohrabacher responded: “I understand that. But there is a problem in our country; there are too many illegals here.”
“This is not done with any type of belligerency,” Rohrabacher added, referring to his unannounced visit.
“Everyone has their own point of view,” Mendoza said. “We are performing this activity under international law.”
“Well, that will be decided in Washington and Mexico City,” Rohrabacher said.
No sooner had the congressman left town shortly before noon than local political, business and religious leaders began to distance themselves from the Mexican consul’s program.
Brad Wilson, chief marketing officer for Santa Catalina Island Co., said: “On Wednesday, we got a call from Rohrabacher’s office asking us if we knew we were involved in a potentially illegal activity, and aiding and abetting illegal aliens. We do not wish to be involved in illegal activities. We closed the country club facility.”
Paul Siebenand, pastor of St. Catherine, said: “It was only by a series of flukes that they wound up meeting in our church. They came to me on Wednesday and said they couldn’t be at the country club anymore and asked if they could use the church. I said, ‘Well, I guess. There’s nothing else going on.’ They said they were going to help anyone Hispanic with their papers.”
But Deputy Consul General Mendoza said: “Everybody knew exactly what was going on here. We are not breaking the law to be here. We are not hiding anything. I explained that to the mayor and others some time ago. Trouble is, right now everyone is feeling the pressure from the congressman.”
“We’ll evaluate the situation,” he added, “then decide whether we should come back again two years from now.”

articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/04/local/la-me-0604-catalina-consulate-20100603

 

[Contarini]

The Church has some real issues and baggage on this topic.

The Church is speaking clearly and morally on this topic as on others, not pandering to one side of the political spectrum or the other, as many folks on both sides obviously wish it sould do.

Edwin

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You’re welcome to that opinion, Edwin. I disagree with you completely. I don’t think it’s as “clear” as you paint it. I do actually think the Church believes they’re on the morally correct side but the pandering is blatantly obvious to me. There is a great deal of ethnic pandering in Catholicism. Being an Episcopalian who doesn’t regularly attend Catholic functions, Masses, and other events, you wouldn’t have the opportunity to observe it. I have, on plenty of occasions. I could give you a laundry list of how Hispanics are pandered-to in my diocese and state while other ethnic groups don’t get a fraction of the attention or devotion…

The Church is speaking clearly and morally on this topic as on others, not pandering to one side of the political spectrum or the other, as many folks on both sides obviously wish it sould do.

Edwin

 

[KathleenGee]

Guerny,

The head of the Catholic Bishops Conference gave the true picture of the bishops in regard to illegal immigration, I shared it on a past previous post…as I wasn’t seeing the full picture because of media bias. It was given to me by a person on the fraternal council I am joining.

It helped me alot because the fraternity I am in is based in Southern California, and that is where I saw this film portraying the USA as very bad, and yet turning a blind eye on why people were fleeing Mexico.

Contarini,

I know exactly what Guerny is going through…he is definitely in an area that is very biased. I know of lay ministers who would share their gripes among the professional lay ministers. But one day when I was going for the first time to the church where my fraternity is based, the Hispanic minister, usually so gracious, saw me, came up the stairs and said, ‘Now this is a Hispanic parish!’…nothing more…I asked an American Anglo fraternity member later on if this parish she is in, is now a Hispanic one? She looked at me surprised, and said no. Our priest director is Guatemalen and is working to build a bridge between both fraternities. The Hispanic refuse to speak to the Anglos. They are well dressed and have American jobs. But on American soil that is supporting them, in joint ethnic meetings in a universal Catholic setting, they refuse to integrate.

I worked among foreign missionaries…we all came from different countries. The superior general wanted us to be more than religious, he wanted us to be family. Every time someone entered the room, everyone changed language to include that person. I saw the same behavior among American sisters. They would be holding conversations among themselves. The moment another person entered the room, they would stop the conversation and begin a new one including the new person.

We live in a culture of rudeness and self-entitlement.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

I didn’t answer because… it has so many fallacies in logic.
BUT I will now.

It is a simple question. It does not take a lot of second guessing, which you have done. You have read and assumed much in your obfuscation. You did NOT answer the question before and anyone that reads this thread will know that you did not answer it this time as well. I will admit it is NOT an easy question for a practicing catholic or other Christian to answer if they would follow Jesus and offer their cloak to a stranger… Let’s see what you did write?

First off, she has lack of food or housing and pregnant - BUT she has the $3,000 to $5,000 AMERICAN ] dollars to pay someone to traffic her over the or around the rough and dangerous passes to cross the border to an illegal job??? She has no documentation so she would have to work ILLEGALLY - Usually for a relative of a Trafficker ]

I never said she had $3,000-$5,000 in my question to pay a trafficker? You added this to the question and in fact if you read the question she is already on the border and you will be the one that either helps (traffic’s) her or not. Are you going to charge her? Are you going to refuse her? Will you help at no charge? This would be up to you, but she has no money. It was not a parameter of the question. As far as the Job goes she will work as a Nanny for a wealthy individual that does not ask for papers and will provide housing, meals and a small income.

She’s poor no documents and in Mexico faces Planned Parenthood?

She faces the choice of aborting this child or fleeing, she has no other alternatives which is why this is a hard morale dilemma type question.

What does a poor pregnant woman in America face???

Much the same question, and she has a choice as to what she will do, and you can help her. However this was not the question and although it is a nice attempt at diverting your attention from looking at your own heart and away from answering the question. It really is a bait and switch tactic.

[Planned Parenthood…THEY FEED off of the poor.

Yes they do, but this does not answer the questions?

[Seeing how the cost of living is much cheaper in Mexico…Her $3,000 to $5,000 Dollars would feed her family MUCH longer and better in Mexico…AND her Family might just be safer from human traffickers who exploit ILLEGAL Jobs in America.

AND this is why I didn’t answer it the first time.

You did not answer it the first time, and you did not answer it this time. Do you help her or not?

Simple Yes I will help her, or No I will not help her… I guess it is just one of those moral questions that is just too hard to get your arms around without trying to justify or add qualifiers to. Oh, well it was worth a try to get you to to look into the mirror as you choose between a venial sin, or a mortal sin and try and figure out what is more important?

I can certainly admit that illegal immigration is a venial sin and aiding someone is the same as what Harriet Tubman did. She was stealing and she knew it, and yet in my heart I think what Harriet did was the right thing to do? What side of that debate would you have been on? Others might try and say they are not the same things as a way of diverting the questions, and although they are not perfect examples they are pretty close. Then again this is not relevant to the question.

In any event I find it amazing that many Christians will fight for life, until the baby needs a home or health care and then it appears some become very selfish and most unchristian like in how they twist the scripture and ignore Christ’s pleas for mercy, compassion, and sharing. I see a lot of fancy foot work, lot’s of mouth work. I wonder what God sees? At times I think maybe I am being uncharitable when I cannot comprehend how denying a child food and medicine is anything but selfish? Maybe I am not seeing something for those fellow Christians that want to deny aid. Maybe they are charitable, but how? What is not selfish in what they preach? I guess I will continue to pray and try to make them read Christ’s words or at least show me where in the Bible Christ tells us to reap from the parents and not share with their children. To allow our fellow citizens to bring people here and then abuse them and be more concerned about punishing the victims then the criminals that employ them is wrong.

Again. I want a secure boarder and more importantly I want business owners and government officials punished for hiring illegals, but until that happens I honestly believe we need to act like Christians, even if in our hearts many of us have a hard time following Christs teachings…
[/quote]

[/quote]

 

[kimmielittle]

It is a simple question. It does not take a lot of second guessing, which you have done. You have read and assumed much in your obfuscation. You did NOT answer the question before and anyone that reads this thread will know that you did not answer it this time as well. I will admit it is NOT an easy question for a practicing catholic or other Christian to answer if they would follow Jesus and offer their cloak to a stranger… Let’s see what you did write?

You paint a pretty picture of a liberal type of Jesus. Just where in your Bible does Jesus say Compassion triumphs over Truth? I see where Truth is tempered with Compassion…I.e… “Go and sin no more”…etc etc. BUT NO PLACE in my Bible does it say that Compassion is equal … Or above Truth. It is liberals that want us to believe that Compassion is on equal or better footing than Truth. IMHO.

Be Very careful with False Compassion. mikeadkins.com/article/bishop-fulton-sheen-on-false-compassionpart-ii/ and mikeadkins.com/article/bishop-fulton-sheen-on-false-compassionpart-i/

Due to lack of food and housing a pregnant migrant is straddling the boarder, facing Mexico is a Planned Parenthood clinic, and in the direction of the US is a job and another life. She needs your help, but she has no papers. How would you direct this person? No choice means DHS sends her back to Mexico and you know what awaits her there?

Your MaGiCaL story…places a poor pregnant woman…magically on the border.

Without Documents she can not cross Legally
.
One has to assume your MaGiCal person has enough sence to know this.

AND Logic would dictate IF trying to enter Illegally…she needs to aline herself with illegals who know how to do it. Traffickers…coyotes - who don’t work free ].

Your MaGiCal person…in your story, faces Planned Parenthood… AS if she has no individual responsibility. You make her out to be nothing more than a limp sour dish-rag - in and of - social pressures. THESE same pressures exsist worldwide…NOT just in some MaGiCal World you present us with.

How would I direct this MaGiCal person…To my MaGiCal World of bed night stories…cause it’s pure fictitious.

Herein lies your main lapses in logic.

Are there Catholic Churches in Mexico?
Do Catholic Churches support Planned Parenthood?
Can she LEGALLY, with help, immigrate?
Do Catholic Churches help with Legal Applications?

I would help this MaGiCal Person…by taking them to a Mexican Catholic Church AND following up on the The Church AND her …I assist her and the Church in her individual responsibility, to LEGALLY enter the USA.

,

 

[KathleenGee]

Middle class Mexican women have been coming to USA to have their babies to get the benefits…and they are not poor.

I am hearing, at my age of 61, that social security will be empty this coming year. Thirty years ago I saw this coming…so I have to put my trust in the Lord in His providence, use my time well and remain healthy, and not depend on this new government.

 

[KathleenGee]

New report came out today, the first and most detailed look at illegation immigration done by the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

Illegal immigration costs the USA $113Billion. The illegals add $245 billion to the gross domestic product. The biggest expense is $52billion spent on education of their children, who are now citizens.

What the report does not look at is the purchasing power of unauthorized consumers that support the economy and US jobs, as well as the fact that the children of illegals who are now citizens will grow up to become taxpaying citizens.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

New report came out today, the first and most detailed look at illegation immigration done by the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

Illegal immigration costs the USA $113Billion. The illegals add $245 billion to the gross domestic product. The biggest expense is $52billion spent on education of their children, who are now citizens.

What the report does not look at is the purchasing power of unauthorized consumers that support the economy and US jobs, as well as the fact that the children of illegals who are now citizens will grow up to become taxpaying citizens.

Kathleen,
Great points that I had missed… Thank you…

 

[PeaceSerenity]

NEWCATHOLICJEFF makes a good point, a point also made by captain Jack Sparrow which is “What a man can do, and what a man can’t do”. Honestly, there isn’t much we as individual people can do about immigration. We can write to our senators, we can complain on internet forums, but honestly, nobody’s going to go stand on the border with a gun in their free time to make sure no one passes. At the point where we can’t stop illegal immigration, then we continue to do what Jesus called us to: feed the hungry, help the sick, visit the imprisoned, regardless of their immigration status. These people may have sinned for crossing the border illegally, i don’t know, that’s God’s call. But are we going to shirk in our Christian duty on a technicality like that. We can’t go wrong by helping them, so I feel like I would be wasting my time judging them and complaining about them.

Just a thought…

 

[KathleenGee]

PeaceSerenity,

Yes I agree…there is so much happening in the world right now…profound changes to finance, science, technology, and even nations’ sovereignty by unseen hands who deliberately work behind the scene.

Now is the time I am trying so hard to just draw closer to God…Mary of Guadalupe…I look at her and she takes all these problems and puts them in God’s hands. No matter how much those behind the scene do what they may, in the end God will come to show the way.

More and more people are getting their eyes opened. Because all this has to happen for them to open their eyes. But I really like the wisdom of this 95 year old man…‘Lord, keep it all away from me.’ That is what I am praying is the prayer of the Our Father and to deliver from us all evil.

I saw at a table with Hispanics who are members of my fraternity. Few Anglos…they began talking their own language in front of me. So I waited a little. Then I asked them how do they live out the practice of our fraternity in these times? We began a discussion. It went very well and I think I made an inroad into the souls of some of them…meaning, that they and I will want to get together to share because we gain in the Lord from each other. Before that, I was mad the first time I saw them because they kept separate. The Lord helped me and my conscience was bothering me because I wasn’t right either harboring those resentments.

So the only way we can go well, is for us to draw close to fellow believers…even among the illegals and be one in the Lord…this will bring great blessing and protection to us…and pray to keep all that evil away.

I spoke to a priest who is on EWTN one time. He told me in reference to particular event that the Lord is using a lance to draw out all the infection…so you can say what is being exposed today is the lance…and it is drawing out all this bad…so we must pray and do penance …the only means to stop it…and Adoration…the first response the Hispanic said to me…about how to deal with living the Gospel in these hectic times.

Come to a stillpoint with Jesus with all your concerns.