Catholic Church reformation

[teadough]

I think that there is too much “kill the messenger” expressed here. Not as bad as in some other threads, but still…

Every suggestion contributed in sincerity without malice should be thanked and prayed over, not attacked or disparaged. As many issues as you may have with the comments of one interested soul, try to see it from their angle first.

If, as may be the case, there are a lot of cradle Catholics leaving the church for some reason (because they allegedly don’t know their own Faith, for example), perhaps an “exit interview” is worth the effort. People think about these things quite a bit when they get into new environments. In this case a person is offering up her own experiences and insights for the benefit of others.

Be grateful, for God’s sake! These people don’t have to share anything with you once they have gone, they could easily leave you to wallow in your own mess.

Michael

Have you even read the entire thread? I don’t think anyone was trying to “kill the messenger” as you say. Oh,well. Good luck with that

 

[brotherhrolf]

Huh?

Vatican II and the reform of the Mass was supposed to be the reformation of the Catholic Church. OY!

 

[brotherhrolf]

I think that there is too much “kill the messenger” expressed here. Not as bad as in some other threads, but still…

Every suggestion contributed in sincerity without malice should be thanked and prayed over, not attacked or disparaged. As many issues as you may have with the comments of one interested soul, try to see it from their angle first.

If, as may be the case, there are a lot of cradle Catholics leaving the church for some reason (because they allegedly don’t know their own Faith, for example), perhaps an “exit interview” is worth the effort. People think about these things quite a bit when they get into new environments. In this case a person is offering up her own experiences and insights for the benefit of others.

Be grateful, for God’s sake! These people don’t have to share anything with you once they have gone, they could easily leave you to wallow in your own mess.

Michael

Michael, I didn’t leave the Church precisely because I was well catechized. The East had little allure for me and even less now that I’ve seen what happened on these forums.

The Holy Father recognized the need. And he is adressing it. Reform? Why? We’ve had the reform for the last 40 years. No, we need to sit back and look at what we threw out 40 years ago in our attempt to reform. Baby got thrown out with the bathwater. I remember and I’m not the only one.

 

[Brother_John]

Most read some protestant materials and feel that maybe the Catholic Church has too many rules. They,all of a sudden, think they have found a “God of grace” when they enter to other churches.

Ironically, the more I listen to my Protestant friends over the years, I find Cathoicism EASY compared to other religions and faiths. The “rules” are enduring and consistient.

It would be interesting to know, how many ex-Catholics go through multiple “church changes” once they’ve left?

 

[teadough]

Ironically, the more I listen to my Protestant friends over the years, I find Cathoicism EASY compared to other religions and faiths. The “rules” are enduring and consistient.

It would be interesting to know, how many ex-Catholics go through multiple “church changes” once they’ve left?

MY neighbor has been to a few in the last year alone. Her reason for leaving the Church started with the fact that she remarried and never got an annulment. From what I gather, I think she could get one but when she moved to my town and came to my parish she felt that the Priest was mean to her because he told her she has been living in sin. This lady grew up in the Catholic Faith. Her whole family is Catholic and she is acting like this is some new rule. Heck,I have not even been Confirmed yet and I have known about the Churches stance on marraige most of my life.

This same woman thinks I am crazy for joining the Church and talks to me like I know nothing about the Protestant faith. I just let her talk. She went as far as to tell me how mean the Catholic Church is for making the Nuns live on next to nothing while the Priest get a nice income.

She even gave me her rosary beads that she has had since she was a little girl. She is in her late forties now.

 

[mgrfin]

I’ll just copy and paste the note I got…

Confronting the New
Mormon Threat

Why Catholics are easy targets
for Mormon evangelists—
and what we can do to keep Catholics Catholic.

Click here to donate

    The Mormon church has been in the news a lot recently. The head of the church, styled its “prophet,” recently died. Many dignitaries attended his funeral, including a major political candidate whose Mormonism has been discussed a lot these last few months. 

    Mormon evangelists have been taking advantage of their church being in the headlines. They have been doing their best to invite Americans to take a closer look at their religion.

    Many people have been doing just that—especially Catholics. In fact, in recent years the majority of converts to Mormonism have been Catholics.

    It makes sense, when you think about it. 

    Catholics are targeted by Mormons because many Catholics can be swayed easily by Mormon arguments. That’s because many Catholics don’t know their own faith.

    In a way, you can’t blame the Mormons. Targeting Catholics has worked for them, so why shouldn’t they keep their evangelizing focus on Catholics?

    What Catholics Don’t Know Can Hurt Them
    Think the Mormons are just a group of nice folks who uphold family values, clean living, and American patriotism? Think again.
    Think the Mormons are just a slightly eccentric offshoot of traditional Protestant Christianity? Think again.
    Think Mormons are actually Christian, accepting the core doctrines of Christianity? Think again!

    The truth is that Mormonism is far different from what most people think it is.

    If asked, most Catholics would not be able to explain what Mormons believe. Nor do they have a clue what is wrong with Mormonism.

One of my favorite TV shows is Big Love.

When the two missionaries show up at my door, I tell them I am interested in “The Principle”. I tell them I was raised Catholic, and I can’t affort the tithe - Catholics never give 10 percent of their income to the Church, so I can’t afford to switch. They usually politely excuse themselves after that and leave.

Mormons are more genteel than Jehovah Witnesses. I usually start telling the Mexican witnesses that Our Lady of Guadalupe is very upset with them, and they should return to their church. They don’t stay that long when I start sprinkling them with holy water…

It’s all in good fun…

peace

 

[I_Believe]

It’s simple: Catholics leave their faith because they do not understand their faith and because they lack faith. …

Exactly.

 

[Dianne2us]

Have you even read the entire thread? I don’t think anyone was trying to “kill the messenger” as you say. Oh,well. Good luck with that

You were respectful, but I did sense some hostility from others that I (not being Catholic) should suggest change. The change that I am suggesting really is quite nonthreatening really. Not a change in docterine but a refreshing in educating.

 

[Dianne2us]

Vatican II and the reform of the Mass was supposed to be the reformation of the Catholic Church. OY!

No need to talk down to me sir. I never heard of Vatican II.

 

[Dianne2us]

Michael, I didn’t leave the Church precisely because I was well catechized. The East had little allure for me and even less now that I’ve seen what happened on these forums.

The Holy Father recognized the need. And he is adressing it. Reform? Why? We’ve had the reform for the last 40 years. No, we need to sit back and look at what we threw out 40 years ago in our attempt to reform. Baby got thrown out with the bathwater. I remember and I’m not the only one.

How do you figure that? Do you want to go back to the Latin mass?

Pope John Paul said, “Why should the Catholic Church change its doctorine to make you feel better about your sin?”

I personally agree with this.

 

[I_Believe]

Be grateful, for God’s sake! These people don’t have to share anything with you once they have gone, they could easily leave you to wallow in your own mess.

Michael

I see you’ve jumped on another opportunity to display your disdain for Roman Catholics.

 

[Dianne2us]

Ironically, the more I listen to my Protestant friends over the years, I find Cathoicism EASY compared to other religions and faiths. The “rules” are enduring and consistient.

It would be interesting to know, how many ex-Catholics go through multiple “church changes” once they’ve left?

Ask me…

As far as rules…what rules? A Christian life is the same since Jesus died on the cross. Being born again is like being hit by lightening and all of a sudden you become very aware of sin in your life and you try to avoid it. It suddenly becomes second nature and not something you think about. I am always aware of “What would Jesus do?”

As far as some of the rules that have nothing to do with what is written between the two outer covers of the Bible and that is concerning Baptists - quite a few Baptists have realized the silliness of a few Baptist rules.

No card playing at all- I’m sure no one has gone to Hell for playing old maid, crazy eights or uno. The concept was that any card playing led to gambling and then toward addiction.

No drinking- same lead to alcholism… I personally enjoy a cold beer in the middle of the hot summer.

No dancing- David danced through the gates of Jeruselem when he finally became King! A quite celebrated biblical event…concept was that dancing will lead to lude and immoral behavior then to premarital sex. I like to dance.

Somethings are just silly.

 

[Dianne2us]

MY neighbor has been to a few in the last year alone. Her reason for leaving the Church started with the fact that she remarried and never got an annulment. From what I gather, I think she could get one but when she moved to my town and came to my parish she felt that the Priest was mean to her because he told her she has been living in sin. This lady grew up in the Catholic Faith. Her whole family is Catholic and she is acting like this is some new rule. Heck,I have not even been Confirmed yet and I have known about the Churches stance on marraige most of my life.

This same woman thinks I am crazy for joining the Church and talks to me like I know nothing about the Protestant faith. I just let her talk. She went as far as to tell me how mean the Catholic Church is for making the Nuns live on next to nothing while the Priest get a nice income.

She even gave me her rosary beads that she has had since she was a little girl. She is in her late forties now.

Funny thing you should mention about annulment. I was divorced and went through the steps to get an anulment through the Catholic church. I was married both times by a priest in the church.

 

[mikew262]

Hi all I just got the letter in my box about Catholics leaving the church to become Mormon…I am aware of what the Mormon church believes…Yikes!

The letter stated that Catholics are leaving because they do not know their own faith. Excluding some of the well leaned people on this site I believe that on a adverage that is true.

I’m an ex-Catholic because I had a thrist for information (spiritually) and I didn’t know where to turn. I am Baptist now. My church offers Bible study, one hour before the service and on Wednesday evening for an hour. I LOVE Bible Study.

Shouldn’t this be a wake-up call. Why doesn’t the Catholic Church make some reforms and begin to educate its people more about the workings of the Catholic Faith. Set up Bible studies and such that not only teaches Christianity but how it applies to the Catholic?..

I agree. I wish the local parishes here would have a Bible Study in the middle of the week. Some have it for an hour before church on Sundays, but I think it would have better attendance if it were held on a weekday evening.

 

[brotherhrolf]

How do you figure that? Do you want to go back to the Latin mass?

Pope John Paul said, “Why should the Catholic Church change its doctorine to make you feel better about your sin?”

I personally agree with this.

And Our Lord said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Before you sit in judgment of my soul madam, don’t you think it might be wise to get to know me? Or any of the rest of us who legitimately remember what HMC was like before 1968? Or, perhaps, you should take your complaint to the Holy Father and ask him to explain his reasons to you for the MP.

 

[Dianne2us]

And Our Lord said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Before you sit in judgment of my soul madam, don’t you think it might be wise to get to know me? Or any of the rest of us who legitimately remember what HMC was like before 1968? Or, perhaps, you should take your complaint to the Holy Father and ask him to explain his reasons to you for the MP.

Wow are you defensive. What did I say that was directed in a judgement toward your soul? Other than out of everyone on this thread you are the only one who has been rude to me.

With your little short first post that I couldn’t make heads or tails of. To your snarky OY…like jeeze lady you are just way to stupid. My Pope quote was not directed toward you, I just thought it was a nice quote and I agreed with it. As far as me getting to know you why would I want to get to know someone who has treated me so rudely. I tend to avoid people like you and if you are snarky toward me again I just will not read your posts nor reply to you anymore. Be nice and I would be happy to get to know you.

I will ask you the question again in a respectful manner. What do you think the Catholic church has changed in the last century that would be considered throwing the baby out with the bath water?

Can you respond to me in a repectful manner as well? And you lost me again, what is the MP?

 

[Dianne2us]

I agree. I wish the local parishes here would have a Bible Study in the middle of the week. Some have it for an hour before church on Sundays, but I think it would have better attendance if it were held on a weekday evening.

You know it really could be such a nice event. A couple people could biring in coffee and two or three people could volunteer to bring in baked goods and fellowship can happen afterward.

Mary, Martha and Lazarus hosted quite a few little parties such as this at their house. Jesus would come in and preach and refreshments would be served. It makes for a nice little evening.

I suggested something like this before, (I’m not sure if it was on this board or not) one guy got all huffy saying that church isn’t meant to entertain me. I didn’t respond and just kind of laughed about it. I thought why can’t you worship and enjoy yourself in the process?

 

[brotherhrolf]

I will ask you the question again in a respectful manner. What do you think the Catholic church has changed in the last century that would be considered throwing the baby out with the bath water?

Can you respond to me in a repectful manner as well? And you lost me again, what is the MP?

Dianne, I apologize for my terse words. This forum is entitled Tradtional Catholicism - which has, in my opinion, two meanings. One is the tradtional Catholicism of the numbers of young people who discovered indult TLM parishes in their dioceses and embraced the Mass of their parents and grandparents. These young people are able to provide concrete reasons for each and every one of the nuances of the TLM. They amaze me with their zeal.

The second group of traditional Catholics are those of us who grew up with the TLM and the practices of HMC before Vatican II.
The “nasty secret” of the years after Vatican II is that your average Catholic in the pew from 1965 to 1969 was not enamored of the changes that were being made. For many of us, our roots were being ripped out, shredded, and then thrown away. We submitted to the magesterium of HMC - which is now an alien concept.

The MP is the Motu Proprio promulgated last September by the Holy Father. It allows any priest in any diocese to say the Traditional Latin Mass or Extraordinary Form without having to seek the approval of his bishop. Many, many dioceses are now experiencing requests for and a growth of the faithful who wish to return to the Mass as it was before 1965, My diocese, unfortunately, is not one of them.

We drive (and have driven) 25 miles one way for the last 25 years to attend a reverent cathedral parish. I’ve sung in the cathedral choir for 22 years. I’ve sung when we were forbidden to sing anything in Latin. The English church has many exact translations of traditional Latin chants and many wonderful anthems and hymns but for a Catholic it is like taking a shower with a rain coat on. It took the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyons in 1992 at our parish’s 200th anniversary to give the Apostolic Blessing in Latin to stop the foolishness of no Latin. There was about 10 of us in the entire cathedral who knew the proper response. If that’s not sad, I don’t know what else is.

I am perfectly happy at my cathedral but four miles away is my geographic parish where one can’t even prepare oneself in quiet before Mass on Saturday afternoon to go to confession. Church has become a social hall and the prohibition against cutting up before the Blessed Sacrament is ignored by people older than I.

Father has been searching for someone to lead a schola at the cathedral. That gives me hope that he is at least thinking about a TLM. BTW, we had a children’s schola when I was in grade school and we kids learned and sang Latin for one Sunday Mass a month.

So, yes, when it comes to liturgy, there has been a huge shift in the last 40 years. Liturgical dance would have been unheard of in 1965.

I get frustrated on these threads when people who grew up with the OF forget that there are still large numbers of us who grew up with the EF still alive. Not all baby boomers hailed the changes of V II. I know I am not the only one on this forum that feels the same way.

I don’t see the MP as a reformation so much as I see it as a restoration. I hope this clarifies things.

 

[Dianne2us]

Dianne, I apologize for my terse words. This forum is entitled Tradtional Catholicism - which has, in my opinion, two meanings. One is the tradtional Catholicism of the numbers of young people who discovered indult TLM parishes in their dioceses and embraced the Mass of their parents and grandparents. These young people are able to provide concrete reasons for each and every one of the nuances of the TLM. They amaze me with their zeal.

The second group of traditional Catholics are those of us who grew up with the TLM and the practices of HMC before Vatican II.
The “nasty secret” of the years after Vatican II is that your average Catholic in the pew from 1965 to 1969 was not enamored of the changes that were being made. For many of us, our roots were being ripped out, shredded, and then thrown away. We submitted to the magesterium of HMC - which is now an alien concept.

The MP is the Motu Proprio promulgated last September by the Holy Father. It allows any priest in any diocese to say the Traditional Latin Mass or Extraordinary Form without having to seek the approval of his bishop. Many, many dioceses are now experiencing requests for and a growth of the faithful who wish to return to the Mass as it was before 1965, My diocese, unfortunately, is not one of them.

We drive (and have driven) 25 miles one way for the last 25 years to attend a reverent cathedral parish. I’ve sung in the cathedral choir for 22 years. I’ve sung when we were forbidden to sing anything in Latin. The English church has many exact translations of traditional Latin chants and many wonderful anthems and hymns but for a Catholic it is like taking a shower with a rain coat on. It took the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyons in 1992 at our parish’s 200th anniversary to give the Apostolic Blessing in Latin to stop the foolishness of no Latin. There was about 10 of us in the entire cathedral who knew the proper response. If that’s not sad, I don’t know what else is.

I am perfectly happy at my cathedral but four miles away is my geographic parish where one can’t even prepare oneself in quiet before Mass on Saturday afternoon to go to confession. Church has become a social hall and the prohibition against cutting up before the Blessed Sacrament is ignored by people older than I.

Father has been searching for someone to lead a schola at the cathedral. That gives me hope that he is at least thinking about a TLM. BTW, we had a children’s schola when I was in grade school and we kids learned and sang Latin for one Sunday Mass a month.

So, yes, when it comes to liturgy, there has been a huge shift in the last 40 years. Liturgical dance would have been unheard of in 1965.

I get frustrated on these threads when people who grew up with the OF forget that there are still large numbers of us who grew up with the EF still alive. Not all baby boomers hailed the changes of V II. I know I am not the only one on this forum that feels the same way.

I don’t see the MP as a reformation so much as I see it as a restoration. I hope this clarifies things.

Actually there is a Catholic Church by me that has a traditional Latin Mass. I don’t remember the mass said in Latin, I was born in 1962. I would like to go to mass there just to experience the mass said in Latin out of curiousity. It’s a pretty church from the outside too because it is built more in the old style and not like the boxy things that have become more popular in the past fifty years.

Anyway aside from the Latin mass being interesting what is it you get out of it personally when you can’t understand the language. Does the priest give a homily in English?

 

[Brother_John]

Anyway aside from the Latin mass being interesting what is it you get out of it personally when you can’t understand the language. Does the priest give a homily in English?

Kinda where I’m coming from. The church I grew up in DID have a Latin Mass (6:30 Saturday night), and I was altar server more than once.

Trying to translate as you go, is confusing at best. If Latin were used out in the day to day world, it might make more sense. Where I live, learning Spanish is almost becoming a neccessity.

So, Mass in Latin would require me to learn a third language, for Mass only? How will that make me more holy or reverent?