Catholic Church reformation

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Dianne2us said:
Actually there is a Catholic Church by me that has a traditional Latin Mass. I don’t remember the mass said in Latin, I was born in 1962. I would like to go to mass there just to experience the mass said in Latin out of curiousity. It’s a pretty church from the outside too because it is built more in the old style and not like the boxy things that have become more popular in the past fifty years.

Anyway aside from the Latin mass being interesting what is it you get out of it personally when you can’t understand the language. Does the priest give a homily in English?
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Ah, but we did understand the language. When I received my First Holy Communion in 1958 at age 7, I also received what was called then my “little missal”. The Latin was on the left side of the page and the English was on the right. The rubrics (in red) explained the actions of the priest on the altar. My mother knelt next to me and pointed out word-for-word as it was being said on the altar. This was in addition to the catechesis we received in school.

Then I became an altar boy at the end of third grade. Father taught us the Mass and then drilled us on our responses during the summer between third and fourth grade. When I was confirmed in 1963, I received my “big” (or adult) missal which included more of the readings and prayers. I still have both of my missals in my possession as does my wife.

Yes, the readings were in Latin and yes they were read again in English. Priests didn’t give homilys back then, they gave sermons and sermons didn’t necessarily have anything to do with the readings. The readings today are one of the best things that came out of Vatican II. That I wouldn’t change - nor would I change the homily.

What I get out of it personally? Hard to explain. Emotions have a lot to do with it. I recognize that this is the same Mass that my ancestors responded to - often at great danger to themselves -e.g. the Irish out in the countryside when Mass was forbidden by the English. Part of it was being an altar boy. Altar boys had a far greater role then than the servers today. Being focused towards God rather than focused towards the community.

In all honesty, the wide variety of abuses I see today if I venture away from my cathedral parish. I’m at Mass to worship God not to fellowship with my fellow parishoners. It’s not about us, it’s about Him. I think that’s what it all comes down to.
 
Dianne2us said:
I’m an ex-Catholic because I had a thrist for information (spiritually) and I didn’t know where to turn. I am Baptist now. My church offers Bible study, one hour before the service and on Wednesday evening for an hour. I LOVE Bible Study.
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That was me too, twenty five years ago. It turns out though, that with such thirst for knowledge and truth, it ended up being that “all roads led back to Rome.” Only the Catholic Church had all the answers that even my radio broadcasted pastor couldn’t answer.

Thanks to the internet, I was able to get the answers I was seeking.

This is the “age of information.” The answers are at our fingertips these days. Every time I would search for an answer to one of my theological or ecclesiological questions, I would find the answers at Catholic websites.

Praise God, I was brave enough to take a chance, and face the fact that for so many years, I only had “partial truth.” I came back to the Catholic Church in 2004. Now I know that it is here that we have the “fullness of truth.” The Catholic Church really is the True Church that Jesus founded 2,000 years ago.

It has cost me much sacrifice to leave the evangelical church I was in for so many years. But TRUTH is TRUTH. I wouldn’t go back to “partial truth” ever again.

Keep thirsting. Keep seeking.
"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."
 
Brother_John said:
Kinda where I’m coming from. The church I grew up in DID have a Latin Mass (6:30 Saturday night), and I was altar server more than once.

Trying to translate as you go, is confusing at best. If Latin were used out in the day to day world, it might make more sense. Where I live, learning Spanish is almost becoming a neccessity.

So, Mass in Latin would require me to learn a third language, for Mass only? How will that make me more holy or reverent?
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And had you served a Latin Mass more frequently, the Latin would not be a problem. And then you see that Spanish is firmly rooted in Latin and cognates abound. And then you see that (shock!) English adopted a large number of Latin words during the Renaissance. And then you take your ACT and GRE exams and have no problems with the vocabulary section because your vocabulary has been so much enriched by Latin.
 
Brother_John said:
Kinda where I’m coming from. The church I grew up in DID have a Latin Mass (6:30 Saturday night), and I was altar server more than once.

Trying to translate as you go, is confusing at best. If Latin were used out in the day to day world, it might make more sense. Where I live, learning Spanish is almost becoming a neccessity.

So, Mass in Latin would require me to learn a third language, for Mass only? How will that make me more holy or reverent?
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Can you give me or direct me to a link that gives a better detail of how a Traditional Mass went. I,too, have been curious if the Homily and such were the only thing said in english. I have little understanding as to why people get so upset over the change. I guess I am so new the last thing I have needed to worry about is the fact that some Mass are in Latin. Does Gloria still get sung at these Mass?

My initial reaction to all of the changes I have read about seems to be simple fact that people have a hard time with change,however,I know there is a much deeper root to it. I am going to make it a point to start learning about the change for my own sake of understanding.
 
teadough said:
Can you give me or direct me to a link that gives a better detail of how a Traditional Mass went. I,too, have been curious if the Homily and such were the only thing said in english. I have little understanding as to why people get so upset over the change. I guess I am so new the last thing I have needed to worry about is the fact that some Mass are in Latin. Does Gloria still get sung at these Mass?
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Teadough! Fear not! All of this is simply permitted. It is not mandated. The Mass is not all of a sudden going to be said in Latin like was done to us in the late 60s when the Mass went from Latin to English.

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3301418

Here’s the Kyrie and Gloria from a TLM - pretty much what you would have seen and heard when I was a kid.
 
Brother_John said:
Trying to translate as you go, is confusing at best. If Latin were used out in the day to day world, it might make more sense. Where I live, learning Spanish is almost becoming a neccessity.

So, Mass in Latin would require me to learn a third language, for Mass only? How will that make me more holy or reverent?
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Same old, same old argument.:yawn: C’mon John! Let’s be a little more original! Warhorses are, after all warhorses!

youtube.com/watch?v=Ia2lqlEFjrE

Aieeee! Tis the Latin Mass returned to wreak it’s vengeance! 😃
 
teadough said:
Can you give me or direct me to a link that gives a better detail of how a Traditional Mass went. I,too, have been curious if the Homily and such were the only thing said in english. I have little understanding as to why people get so upset over the change. I guess I am so new the last thing I have needed to worry about is the fact that some Mass are in Latin. Does Gloria still get sung at these Mass?

My initial reaction to all of the changes I have read about seems to be simple fact that people have a hard time with change,however,I know there is a much deeper root to it. I am going to make it a point to start learning about the change for my own sake of understanding.
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See the difference for yourself. There are more prayers in the Traditional Mass plus you kneel to receive communion on the tongue. Altar boys only, Traditional Music, the priest faces the Tabernalce not the people and the sermons are on teachings of the Church that have been handed down.
Latin is no problem. The missal has the translation. Very easy to follow after only a few times.
latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm
 
brotherhrolf said:
What I get out of it personally? Hard to explain. Emotions have a lot to do with it. I recognize that this is the same Mass that my ancestors responded to - often at great danger to themselves -e.g. the Irish out in the countryside when Mass was forbidden by the English.
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Ok, NOW you’re making sense to me. It’s about your heritage and your ancestors. That’s a different story than saying that Mass in the venacular is less “Mass”…
 
stmaria said:
See the difference for yourself. There are more prayers in the Traditional Mass plus you kneel to receive communion on the tongue. Altar boys only, Traditional Music, the priest faces the Tabernalce not the people and the sermons are on teachings of the Church that have been handed down.
Latin is no problem. The missal has the translation. Very easy to follow after only a few times.
latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm
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Thanks for that link.I hope I am not asking a stupid question but what part of the Latin Mass was in Latin? The you provided shows everything in English. Maybe I am not asking the right question or maybe I am not understanding someting really obvious.🤷

I know we went over this in RCIA but I think I missed that class because I work nights every other week:(
 
brotherhrolf said:
Teadough! Fear not! All of this is simply permitted. It is not mandated. The Mass is not all of a sudden going to be said in Latin like was done to us in the late 60s when the Mass went from Latin to English.

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3301418

Here’s the Kyrie and Gloria from a TLM - pretty much what you would have seen and heard when I was a kid.
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the link you provided is a link that take me to my inbox:shrug:

thanks in advance:)
 
teadough said:
Thanks for that link.I hope I am not asking a stupid question but what part of the Latin Mass was in Latin? The you provided shows everything in English. Maybe I am not asking the right question or maybe I am not understanding someting really obvious.🤷

I know we went over this in RCIA but I think I missed that class because I work nights every other week:(
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Everything that you see in English is said by the priest in Latin. Right before the priest gives his sermon he reads the epistle and the Gospel, for that day, in English.
In a low Mass the priest will say the Leonine prayers in English.
stmichaels.org/stmichaels/mass.html

Here is the Latin text Just click on Introductory Rites

geauxto.com/LatinLiturgyAssociation/id18.htm
 
Brother_John said:
Ok, NOW you’re making sense to me. It’s about your heritage and your ancestors. That’s a different story than saying that Mass in the venacular is less “Mass”…
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I never said that. I have no problems with a reverent vernacular Mass - Lord knows it took me long enough to find one (1983). I could easily go back to a TLM - I could and would serve given sufficient time to brush up on the rubrics - the Latin is not a problem and, yes, I do/did know what I am/was saying. But I would be just as content to see reverence sweep the land.

I have never tried to influence my children - in other words I have never taken my sons to a TLM. My sons grew up in a reverent cathedral parish where they did (gasp!) hear Latin motets and chant; did sing the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in chant during Lent; and experienced the full impact of the Triduum each year. My oldest at 26 floored me last year when he came to me and recited the Pater Noster in Latin. :bigyikes:

Why, I asked. Youtube. He had seen TLMs with choirs and chant on Youtube. “Daddy,” he said, “we are so close at the cathedral”. The Holy Spirit moves where He wills and my son joins the ranks of the young seeking that lost something.
 
To be honest, I could (justabout) live with the “Latin Mass” in English. It is the form that matters to me, like Brother John was alluding to.
 
brotherhrolf said:
I never said that. I have no problems with a reverent vernacular Mass -
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My apologies, I wasn’t clear on that. YOU specifically didn’t say that, but plenty of others do…which is why I enjoyed reading your explanation.
 
markadm said:
To be honest, I could (justabout) live with the “Latin Mass” in English. It is the form that matters to me, like Brother John was alluding to.
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EWTN had a new order of priests from Argentina on around All Saints Day. They said the most awesome NO Mass I have seen in years. They sucessfully combined both Latin and English elements and out reverenced the normally reverent EWTN Mass.
I don’t have any problem with that.
 
brotherhrolf said:
EWTN had a new order of priests from Argentina on around All Saints Day. They said the most awesome NO Mass I have seen in years. They sucessfully combined both Latin and English elements and out reverenced the normally reverent EWTN Mass.
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Sounds great. 😃

Though I must admit I am attached to the elements of the '62 Missal not found in the novus ordo one, particularly now that I am serving Mass.
 
I am trying to find some TLM in my area. I know there are some but at the moment I can only find a SSPX Parish which I know little about a.
 
Mark, you do know you’re going to get yourself into trouble with that. 😃 How many weekday Masses at 6am did I serve where it was just Father and I in the rectory because the church had not been built. I guess that has a lot to do with my entire attitude in that there was just priest and altar boy and no corners were cut. And then when the sisters came and the convent was built before the church…Priest, altar boy, and sisters - no corners cut.

More than anything else, those two years of serving Mass in Latin with just Father and I in attendance was more than enough to form my conscience regarding the Mass. Wherever two or more are gathered in My Name… Father could have cut corners, rushed through it, mumbled the Latin…but he didn’t. What a powerful witness that was! And this was in 1965 - 1967.

And then everything got shredded. The absolute indignity of having to sing Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” at my high school graduation Mass in 1969 from a Catholic boys high school where but a year before I assisted at Mass in Latin.

Where is the threat to the NO compared to what many of us went through? Sorry, folks. I just don’t see it.
 
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