Did Joseph Smith triumph over his enemies? He said he would
triumph, not his doctrines. Kind of a stretch there, wouldn’t you agree?
No, I wouldn’t.
Think about it, the enemies of Christ and the enemies of Joseph Smith had similar intent. Destroy the individual to destroy their church. But similar to those who persecuted and killed the apostles of Christ’s time, the enemies of Joseph Smith merely succeeded in creating a martyr. If I were to follow your short line of logic, that a person must live to triumph over his enemies, one might also conclude Christ had no triumph because he died at the hands of his enemies. Such reasoning is flawed, to say the least.
So the Civil War was the US government being utterly overthrown and wasted and not even a potsherd was left? Again, a stretch by any means. And it said the US government, not the Missouri government. See what I mean about stretching to make ends meet?
I admit that my previous explanation was a stretch but you are still wrong. Allow me to present what I have learned in a more careful consideration of the matter. The prophesy was originally made to Stephen A Douglas and the second half of it was
fulfilled.
Regarding the government issue, note that the prophet
never used the exact phrase “US government” in the entire prophesy. He first uses “United States” and then “Government” later. Why bother separating the two? Because he intended different meanings. One may argue Government means system of governing therefore Joseph Smith’s prophesy meant the US government but I doubt it. If not the system of governing what did he mean then? Consider this definition:
“the governing body of persons in a state, community, etc.; administration.” I hope this definition is acceptable, being the third entry in the dictionary linked.
At this time the US government was largely governed by the
Whig Party. Not that no such party exists today and that this party ceased operating in 1856, Thirteen years after the prophesy was made. If we can accept the definition of “government” provided above and that the Whig Party was the governing body, the prophesy mentioned has been fulfilled.
Where’s the temple in Missouri? Has the generation passed, 160+ years later? Will it be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith? Isn’t this prophesy straight from the Doctrines and Covenants of the Mormon Church?
I have previously addressed this issue but here we go again. Yes there is currently no temple at the lot dedicated in Independence, Missouri. The one in Jerusalem hasn’t been constructed either. So what?
The generation has not passed. Generation has several meanings and is not limited to any specific period of time. Consider Christ’s statement concerning signs of his second coming in
Matthew 24:34.
Your “dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith” logic does not work if you believe in resurrection or read the verse more carefully and realize it has already happened since it is the
temple lot that was to be dedicated by Joseph Smith’s hand.
Yes, the prophesy is straight out of D&C and it has clearly not yet been entirely fulfilled. But then again neither has
this. Unless you accept a less conventional meaning for temple. Just for the record, I think both meanings will eventually be fulfilled.
Additionally, I might add that the Lord refers to this prophesy as a commandment later in D&C. Therefore, one might argue that it was a commandment not prophesy. But since the church teaches this city will eventually be built I accept it as prophesy.
Doesn’t the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) own the property now?
Properties change hands everyday why bring this issue up?
Don’t they claim that they are the original restored Church and there was an apostasy of the restored Gospel? Doesn’t that mean the rest of the LDS Churches are the apostate Churches?
You’re digressing here. Such questions about any church are hardly helpful. I might ask similar questions about orthodox vs. roman. But such questions are hardly helpful. To establish the truth of a church we ought to be concerned with doctrine as taught directly by Christ and his apostles and how the teachings of that church compare.
Want to answer these questions first or do you want me to go ahead and address some more failed prophesies by your Church’s founder? Let me know.
I hope my responses are deemed worthy of “answer” quality by catholic standards. If you must address “failed prophesies” in the future please be sure to include the exact history and circumstances around it.
And these do pertain since you’re challenging the Catholic Church being the only right one with your Church. Wouldn’t you agree? The doctrines you said were strong are filled with prophesies by your Church’s founder.
I do not agree. I have no intention of “challenging the Catholic Church” and especially not by your methods. Discrediting another church (or the statements of another church’s prophet for that matter) does not establish the correctness of your own. If you want to defend the catholic church against challengers start with Luther and his 95 theses. I have nothing against the Catholic church and have no intentions to challenge it. However, I will always try to correct misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the LDS church because I am tired of false perceptions about us.
Reviewing your posts I must respond to one more thing.
The Lord gave His life according to the will of the Father. The Lord asked forgiveness for those who persecuted Him.
Joseph Smith took a gun and fired upon those who went after him.
Again look at the history, think about it. Joseph Smith was not in that room alone. You make his actions sound entirely selfish. He was at Carthage with his brother Hyrum, John Taylor & Willard Richards. His intentions are unclear and only he and god know them. His actions were at a minimum in self-defense and may easily be interpreted to be in defense of those who were with him.
saddly these truths get quickly overlooked, because “Truth” goes against anitCatholic sentiments and training.
