Catholic conservatism on the rise as priest refuses funeral for 'sinner'

[buffalo]

Catholic conservatism on the rise as priest refuses funeral for ‘sinner’

A PARISH priest has refused to give an Italian woman a Christian funeral because she had “lived in sin”. Father Giuseppe Mazzotta, parish priest at Marcellinara, near Catanzaro in Calabria, said that he had denied a Christian funeral to Maria Francesca Tallarico, who died of breast cancer at the age of 45, because she had lived with her partner but never married him. Her partner was separated and had an 11-year-old daughter.

more…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Q: What’s the difference between a conservative Catholic priest, and Fred/Margie Phelps?

A: Fred and Margie can only protest at funerals of sinners. The priest can actually prevent them.

A2: We applaud one’s courage in speaking the word of God in the name of Church unity, while we vilify the other for speaking it at funerals. The priest doesn’t have that problem – just don’t have a funeral.

This is another example of the letter of the law trumping the spirit. Thanks again, conservatism. Clearly conservatism is a code word for “zero tolerance” which roughly translates into “no mercy for those we wish to hold bound.”

I don’t see how this priest denying a funeral to a Catholic is any different than other divisive tactics taken by conservative Catholics who wish to cleanse the Church of certain types of sinners.

Alan

 

[fix]

AlanFromWichita:

Q: What’s the difference between a conservative Catholic priest, and Fred/Margie Phelps?

A: Fred and Margie can only protest at funerals of sinners. The priest can actually prevent them.

A2: We applaud one’s courage in speaking the word of God in the name of Church unity, while we vilify the other for speaking it at funerals. The priest doesn’t have that problem – just don’t have a funeral.

This is another example of the letter of the law trumping the spirit. Thanks again, conservatism. Clearly conservatism is a code word for “zero tolerance” which roughly translates into “no mercy for those we wish to hold bound.”

I don’t see how this priest denying a funeral to a Catholic is any different than other divisive tactics taken by conservative Catholics who wish to cleanse the Church of certain types of sinners.

Alan

Manifest sin is not to be taken lightly, nor is scandal.

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

I don’t see how this priest denying a funeral to a Catholic is any different than other divisive tactics taken by conservative Catholics who wish to cleanse the Church of certain types of sinners.

Alan

Can you give me one example of such a Catholic? You have said this several times but I have never run into a Catholic that wants to kick people out of the Church.

(and I walk in, shall we say, “conservative” circles)

What I DO find (and me being one of them) is orthodox Catholics that would like teachers of the faith to be disciplined and/or not allowed to teach heterodoxy. That’s pretty reasonable no?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Brad:

Can you give me one example of such a Catholic? You have said this several times but I have never run into a Catholic that wants to kick people out of the Church.

1. Archbishop Chaput
2. Me

Any other takers?

Edit: add Fr Pavone to that list.

 

[fix]

Brad:

Can you give me one example of such a Catholic? You have said this several times but I have never run into a Catholic that wants to kick people out of the Church.

(and I walk in, shall we say, “conservative” circles)

What I DO find (and me being one of them) is orthodox Catholics that would like teachers of the faith to be disciplined and/or not allowed to teach heterodoxy. That’s pretty reasonable no?

Yea, it is not about cleansing the Church of sinners, but protecting others, particularly children, from error and heresy. Immortal souls are little valued today.

 

[Brad]

1. Archbishop Chaput
2. Me

Any other takers?

Archbishop Chaput is kicking people out of the Church?

Do you have any evidence of this?

You want to kick people out of the Church? Why?

 

[buffalo]

AlanFromWichita:

Q: What’s the difference between a conservative Catholic priest, and Fred/Margie Phelps?

A: Fred and Margie can only protest at funerals of sinners. The priest can actually prevent them.

A2: We applaud one’s courage in speaking the word of God in the name of Church unity, while we vilify the other for speaking it at funerals. The priest doesn’t have that problem – just don’t have a funeral.

This is another example of the letter of the law trumping the spirit. Thanks again, conservatism. Clearly conservatism is a code word for “zero tolerance” which roughly translates into “no mercy for those we wish to hold bound.”

I don’t see how this priest denying a funeral to a Catholic is any different than other divisive tactics taken by conservative Catholics who wish to cleanse the Church of certain types of sinners.

Alan

More of the anything goes and the Church and God should accept it. No moral boundaries, the end of sin, it’s only about what I want, etc… and if I don’t agree the Church is the problem. :banghead:

From the Syllabus of Errors - 24. The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect. – Apostolic Letter “Ad Apostolicae,” Aug. 22, 1851.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Brad:

Archbishop Chaput is kicking people out of the Church? Do you have any evidence of this?

Archbishop said recently that the Church should get smaller.

Brad:

You want to kick people out of the Church? Why?

Because they say their own personal version of the Our Father in church.

Because they say their own personal version of the Creed in the church.

Because they take communion without going to Confession.

Because they organize public meetings for pro-abortion speakers.

Because they shoot out of their chairs and start bellowing abuse at the Litany.

Because they shoot out of their chairs and start bellowing abuse at the Hail Mary.

Because they do not believe in the Resurrection.

Because they do not believe in the Immaculate Conception.

Because they believe Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children.

Because their version of a discussion on Catholic topic is a list of grievances indistinguishable from a Jack Chick list.

Because in no way are they amenable to listening to anything else but their own doctrine.

Because they then attempt to re-educate children and adults according to their corrupted views.

Because I believe that they would be happier and I would be happier if they simply migrated to another Church.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ani Ibi:

Edit: add Fr Pavone to that list.

Priests for Life: Nobody’s Forced to Be Catholic, Can’t Stand Teachings? - Leave

NEW YORK, July 21, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Fr. Frank Pavone, national director of Priests for Life, has words for people who claim to be Catholic but attempt to push an agenda which is anti-Catholic. A recent press release from the misnamed group ‘Catholics for a Free Choice’, claims “faithful practicing Catholics” are not obliged to “follow church positions on issues like abortion, contraception, access to reproductive health services, end of life decision-making, the death penalty and gay rights.”

“Our response is simple,” said Fr. Pavone. “Nobody is forced to be a Catholic, but if you don’t subscribe to Catholic teaching, have the honesty and integrity to say that you are no longer Catholic. But don’t try to have it both ways. That’s a game children play, not adults.”

 

[Lilyofthevalley]

Picking on the dead as this priest did, is that a Christian virture? What a horrible man.

 

[Brad]

Ani Ibi:

Archbishop said recently that the Church should get smaller.

Because they say their own personal version of the Our Father in church.

Because they say their own personal version of the Creed in the church.

Because they take communion without going to Confession.

Because they organize public meetings for pro-abortion speakers.

Because they shoot out of their chairs and start bellowing abuse at the Litany.

Because they shoot out of their chairs and start bellowing abuse at the Hail Mary.

Because they do not believe in the Resurrection.

Because they do not believe in the Immaculate Conception.

Because they believe Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children.

Because their version of a discussion on Catholic topic is a list of grievances indistinguishable from a Jack Chick list.

Because in no way are they amenable to listening to anything else but their own doctrine.

Because they then attempt to re-educate children and adults according to their corrupted views.

Because I believe that they would be happier and I would be happier if they simply migrated to another Church.

I appreciate all of the issues you stated here. However, I think you are mixing “teaching” with “sin and disbelief”. This is an important disctinction.

If someone is teaching dissent (priest, sister, CCD teacher, deacon), then they should be disciplined and then not allowed to teach if they persist.

If someone is a quiet dissenter, no harm no foul.

If someone is a vocal dissenter but not in a teaching capacity, they are easily refutable.

If someone is causing a disruption during prayer, mass etc. then they are sinning and should be kicked out of that particular church because of disruption but not necessarily kicked out of the Church.

As far as I know, the only way of people leaving is by excommunication and that is through their own actions, not through those of another person.

I agree with Bishop Chaput. Perhaps the Church should be smaller and it would be IF TEACHERS (priests, sisters etc.) taught the truth without reservation.

I personally know such a priest and his church is small but the grace is there and, over time, the fruit of the harvest will be very visible.

So, is it that you think priests should kick people out or is it that you think priest should teach the truth only and not allow anyone at his parish to teach other than the truth?

 

[Brad]

Priests for Life: Nobody’s Forced to Be Catholic, Can’t Stand Teachings? - Leave

NEW YORK, July 21, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Fr. Frank Pavone, national director of Priests for Life, has words for people who claim to be Catholic but attempt to push an agenda which is anti-Catholic. A recent press release from the misnamed group ‘Catholics for a Free Choice’, claims “faithful practicing Catholics” are not obliged to “follow church positions on issues like abortion, contraception, access to reproductive health services, end of life decision-making, the death penalty and gay rights.”

“Our response is simple,” said Fr. Pavone. “Nobody is forced to be a Catholic, but if you don’t subscribe to Catholic teaching, have the honesty and integrity to say that you are no longer Catholic. But don’t try to have it both ways. That’s a game children play, not adults.”

I agree with Father Pavone, but he is not kicking people out of the church - he is making it rather uncomfortable for dissenters - that is a good and holy strategy.

 

[Penitent]

How do we know that she didn’t repent on her deathbed (for that matter, Judas may have also), receive God’s forgiveness, and this priest deny her the resting place God intended for her?

Look, I am a fairly conservative person, and consider myself orthodox to the max, but I have a problem with people assuming they know what’s in the innermost depth of someone’s soul. Giving a Catholic a Catholic burial is showing that by the grace of God, this person just may have come into that grace at the very last moment of her life. This priest had no way of knowing.

And for the record, I really am undecided on his actions. I have no problem with certain actions being taken while someone is alive, such as denying communion to pro-abort, openly defiant politicians, but this one (denying the funeral) leaves me a bit uncomfortable.

Penitent

 

[cameron_lansing]

Denial of Catholic funeral rites

Canon 1184:§1. Unless they have given some signs of repentance before their death, the following are to be deprived of ecclesiastical funeral rites: (1) notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics; (2) persons who had chosen the cremation of their own bodies for reasons opposed to the Christian faith; (3) other manifest sinners for whom ecclesiastical funeral rites cannot be granted without public scandal to the faithful. §2. If some doubt should arise, the local ordinary is to be consulted; and his judgment is to be followed. (*1983 CLSA translation)

We have to be careful about setting up a false dichotemy between the law and the spirit. The law not only only expresses a right of the Christian faithful but also manifests a benevolence and mercy regarding ecclesiastical funeral rites. The Church wants to bring the mercy of Christ to the grieving even as it commits the deceased to his mercy as well. It is not a conservative or liberal thing in my estimation. Perhaps there are some points worth consideration here.

As canon 1176 §1 provides, the Christian faithful departed are to be given ecclesiastical funeral rites according to the norm of law. Other canons are “generous” regarding arrangements (c. 1177) and about who may receive ecclesiastical funeral rites (c. 1183). The law however is strict about denial of this right. In fact, the denial of a right in the Church should be understood as a last resort action. In a sense, the threat or possibility of such a denial is intended to elicit repentence and reform from the erring member of the faithful.

"Father Mazzotta said that he had performed the liturgy of absolution for the dead. " This sounds like the technical term for a prayer said over the body following a requiem Mass, but other that that, I don’t know what that means in the article’s context. One wonders if there had been sacramental confession while the woman was living. Then of course, the priest was bound by the seal and obliged to avoid direct and indirect disclosure.

At any rate, if the lady had shown some sign of repentence before death, even apart from that placed in sacramental confession, the priest would still have acted illicitly (and improperly) in denying her ecclesiastical funeral rites. If so, such an arbitrary use of authority is lamentable.

In the case of any doubt about whether the conditions were met for the denial, including whether or not public scandal to the faithful would occur if the funeral was conducted, the case should have been submitted to the local ordinary (usually the diocesan bishop in this context) and his judgment followed. Sometimes a greater scandal is created among the faithful when ecclesiastical funeral rites are denied.

So then, even though such cohabitation presents an objectively grave moral situation, by itself the condition of her having being a manifest sinner was inadequate to invoke the denial mentioned in canon 1184. The lack of repentence and the scandal would also have to be present beyond positive doubt.

But when the conditions of the canon are met, they simply state a reality: that someone has deliberately, obstinately, gravely and publicly made a choice to seriously break communion with the Church in some way. If that happens, Church authority is bound to honor the wishes placed by the decedent in this life.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Brad:

So, is it that you think priests should kick people out or is it that you think priest should teach the truth only and not allow anyone at his parish to teach other than the truth?

Yes and yes. If people come to their senses and truly feel the harm they have done others through their own public rebellion, then let them come back.

Meanwhile who is going to cry for all the souls so grievously misled by this public rebellion? It is about time we started worrying about the vulnerable among us rather than hobnobbing with the strident rebels who would bring everything down about their ears if we let them.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I am also uncomfortable that this Priest appears to have usurped an authority that is the sole province of God (exacting judgment on a soul). At the same time, regardless of the body’s final resting place and where/if the final earthly service is done(Catholic cemetary and Catholic funeral), it has no bearing one the souls final resting place (Heaven or Hell).

However, at times the Church must take stands to instruct the living. By this Priest’s action, I hope that the message learned is that what we believe and do in this life will impact whether we spend eternity with God. Just as the souls we steered away from God can extend our time (time isn’t the right measure but it conforms w/ our limited understanding of eternity) in Purgatory, the souls we helped find God will reduce the time in Purgatory. Maybe this denial of a funeral is actually a blessng for this woman.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I’m wondering how this priest could possibly know whether or not this woman repented on her deathbed.

 

[cainem]

i don’t understand why this one particular sin, after all we are all a church full of sinners, i’m dreading my turn to pop my clogs, what will they chose not to bury me over?

 

[gilliam]

cainem:

i don’t understand why this one particular sin, after all we are all a church full of sinners, i’m dreading my turn to pop my clogs, what will they chose not to bury me over?

Murder of innocent children is not just any old sin.