Catholic conservatism on the rise as priest refuses funeral for 'sinner'

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Ani Ibi:
Yes and yes. If people come to their senses and truly feel the harm they have done others through their own public rebellion, then let them come back.

Meanwhile who is going to cry for all the souls so grievously misled by this public rebellion? It is about time we started worrying about the vulnerable among us rather than hobnobbing with the strident rebels who would bring everything down about their ears if we let them.
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I agree with you sentiment wholeheartedly. We MUST protect the souls.

I don’t think kicking the bible study member who thinks women should be priests out of the church is the way to this protection.

I think proper teaching of her and others IS the way to this protection.

I think Bishops disciplining rengade priests IS the way to this protection.
 
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Penitent:
How do we know that she didn’t repent on her deathbed (for that matter, Judas may have also), receive God’s forgiveness, and this priest deny her the resting place God intended for her?

Look, I am a fairly conservative person, and consider myself orthodox to the max, but I have a problem with people assuming they know what’s in the innermost depth of someone’s soul. Giving a Catholic a Catholic burial is showing that by the grace of God, this person just may have come into that grace at the very last moment of her life. This priest had no way of knowing.

And for the record, I really am undecided on his actions. I have no problem with certain actions being taken while someone is alive, such as denying communion to pro-abort, openly defiant politicians, but this one (denying the funeral) leaves me a bit uncomfortable.

Penitent
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I must respectfully disagree.
Yes, she may have repented before death, but none of us, including the priest, can know that. Only God can know that.
For too long, the Church has been tolerating scandalous behavior from bishops, priests and lay people. By giving her a Christian burial, the priest would have been complicit in her scandal.
I fully agree with Ani Ibi; all this has been tolerated for entirely too long.
I also respectfully disagree with Brad. Quiet dissent can be just as insidious as dissent which is openly taught. People see the behavior, they see that it is not corrected or punished and assume that it is accepted by the Church. They begin to mimic the behavior and it silently spreads.
No, whether it’s being taught by a bishop or simply done at daily mass, disent and even just error must be addressed.
I have been visiting local parishes for Sunday Liturgy because my pastor has been on vacation. No two were alike; each parish had its own personal abuse. Of course this falls back on the ordinary, but it’s how dissent gorws.
 
I have a problem with what this priest did. Denying a funeral for a dead person is wrong. We are all sinners. I think Jesus would say something along the lines of “He who is without sin cast the first stone.” This priest is taking it upon himself to judge the state of her soul. I am wondering, do the pedophile priests get a Catholic funeral?
 
Petertherock said:
" This priest is taking it upon himself to judge the state of her soul. I am wondering, do the pedophile priests get a Catholic funeral?
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Yup - If they are repentant. A manifest obstinate sinner is quite a different state.
 
Kay Cee:
I’m wondering how this priest could possibly know whether or not this woman repented on her deathbed.
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He might have been there. Or he may have visited her and she told him to go to **** and also blasphemed. She might have told him she has absolutely no regrets as to her behavior. She might have told him she doesn’t care what God thinks. Many ways.
 
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buffalo:
He might have been there.
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If a priest was not there, he probably could take the word of a witness.

Chances are she was proud of her murder.
 
This thing don´t have any relationship with conservator or liberal. I think that the priest will have the reasons, but I think that if it isn´t very clear that she hasn´t forgiven the sins and didn´t believe in God, she deserved a funeral.
 
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Petertherock:
This priest is taking it upon himself to judge the state of her soul.
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I don’t think the denial of a Catholic funeral is a judgment on the eventual location of her soul. They are two separate things.
 
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Maranatha:
I don’t think the denial of a Catholic funeral is a judgment on the eventual location of her soul. They are two separate things.
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That is true. It shows harmony with the Church, which apparently was not there.
 
Dear friends

There is a great difference between a sinner who is repentant and striving for perfection and a defiant sinner that totally rejects obedience to the Church. We are all sinners, without exception. To simply refuse a sinner a Catholic burial is too simplistic, no person would be afforded the sacraments if that was the case. This is not what this Priest did here, this Priest refused a Catholic burial to a person who defiantly rejected the truths of the Church and followed their own doctrine but then expected to be given the full Sacrament of the Church, this is not possible. The Priest was correct to take this stance.

To be Catholic is to accept the precepts of the Church and strive to live by them, that is in other words to live by the Gospel message upheld since the Church was born in , by and through Christ Jesus. If someone desires to be Catholic then they should also desire to be obedient, from love comes obedience. Christ Jesus is obedient to the Father and so no less is expected of ourselves. If they have no intention of ‘being’ Catholic, but live out their lives deliberately contrary to the Gospel message and unrepenting then how can they then expect to be afforded the grace of the Sacraments.

This is not a matter of orthodoxy, this is fundamentally a matter of living the Catholic life as laid down since over 2000 years ago, if anyone would care to prove to me Christ’s Gospel is not as relevant today as it was over 2000 years ago, then I defy anyone to come forward and do that. No-one can do that, I know, so now why split hairs against the one Truth? It is either Truth or it is not. There is no inbetween, there is only Truth and the Catholic Church is the guardian of Truth. If we lose that purity, we compromise the Truth.

The self either lives only to die eternally or it dies and is recreated to Christ Jesus to live eternally, there is no room for self in Christianity.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
What a smug, self-righteious man…This is a terrible example of “show no mercy” legalism…

No one but God has the right to judge the status of another’s soul. And…When all is said and done, we are ALL sinners of one variety or another…Some sins are just more visible than others. This priest has caused his own brand of scandal…The willfull hurt he caused a family…

My thought is this: Do the funeral and let God handle the rest. I’m so mad I can’t see straight…

And please…No replies telling me how important it is to shield others from the appearance of another’s sin, or how important it is that we make an example of this woman so people will know how serious we are about weeding out the sinners…And no remarks about how this poor woman does not deserve a Chrsitian burial because she “lived in sin”…

It occurs to me that Jesus came for us sinners, knowing that we have always and will always fall short of perfection. I prefer to allow HIm to judge this woman…I don’t want to touch it, and neither shoud any priest.
 
Catholic Heart:
What a smug, self-righteious man…This is a terrible example of “show no mercy” legalism…

No one but God has the right to judge the status of another’s soul. And…When all is said and done, we are ALL sinners of one variety or another…Some sins are just more visible than others. This priest has caused his own brand of scandal…The willfull hurt he caused a family…

My thought is this: Do the funeral and let God handle the rest. I’m so mad I can’t see straight…

And please…No replies telling me how important it is to shield others from the appearance of another’s sin, or how important it is that we make an example of this woman so people will know how serious we are about weeding out the sinners…And no remarks about how this poor woman does not deserve a Chrsitian burial because she “lived in sin”…

It occurs to me that Jesus came for us sinners, knowing that we have always and will always fall short of perfection. I prefer to allow HIm to judge this woman…I don’t want to touch it, and neither shoud any priest.
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Interesting. I would say for a Priest to take such a stance he must have had alot of knowledge about this woman. God cannot show mercy to those who refuse His mercy and refuse to repent. Those who refuse His mercy must then pass through the door of His justice.

There is showing mercy and then there is allowing people to abuse the sacraments of the Church, the two cannot and never will go hand in hand.

God is Merciful but He is also Just.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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buffalo:
More of the anything goes and the Church and God should accept it. No moral boundaries, the end of sin, it’s only about what I want, etc… and if I don’t agree the Church is the problem. :banghead:

From the Syllabus of Errors - 24. The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect. – Apostolic Letter “Ad Apostolicae,” Aug. 22, 1851.
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And what sin of yours will prevent you from having a Catholic burial?
 
“What a smug, self-righteious man…This is a terrible example of “show no mercy” legalism…”

Wow, aren’t you judgmental? The same “sin” that you accuse the Priest of doing.

“No one but God has the right to judge the status of another’s soul.”

While it might appear that the Priest did, he didn’t judge the status of her soul but only the outward manifestation of her life.

“I’m so mad I can’t see straight…”

My very wise and Spirit-guided Priest always says to react to “wrongs” with the tender heart of Jesus. Just something for you to consider.

“I don’t want to touch it, and neither shoud any priest.” (sic)

I guess I sometimes think that the Church has to touch issues that others are afraid to touch. While I don’t know if a funeral is the way for a Priest to address this woman’s outward acts during her life, I guess I’m not as judgmental as you. I just pray that the living learn something from this and the deceased family finds comfort in their time of grief.
 
1 Cor 5 9-13

In my letter I wrote that you must have nothing to do with those who are sexually immoral. I was not, of course referring to people in general that are immoral or extortioners or swindlers or idolators: to avoid them you would have to withdraw from society altogether. I meant that you should have nothing to do with any so-called Christian who leads an immoral life , or is extortionate, idolatrous, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a swindleer ; with any like this you should not even eat. What business of mine is it to judge outsiders? God is the judge. But within the fellowship, you are the judges: Root out the wrongdoer from your community.
 
Catholic Heart:
And what sin of yours will prevent you from having a Catholic burial?
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It might be telling the truth in a less than charitable way.
 
Catholic Heart:
What a smug, self-righteious man…This is a terrible example of “show no mercy” legalism…
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How can you make this assessment with the limited knowledge of the situation? How easily many here condemn the priest with limited information and with him doing nothing against what the Church teaches.
Catholic Heart:
No one but God has the right to judge the status of another’s soul. And…When all is said and done, we are ALL sinners of one variety or another…Some sins are just more visible than others. This priest has caused his own brand of scandal…The willfull hurt he caused a family…
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The priest was not judging her soul. He was denying a service to someone that denied the bride of Christ.

This was obstinant continuous and unrepentant sin - that is the disctinction.

The priest caused no such scandal. However, she may have caused scandal by refusing to obey the teachings of the Church but acting as though she were still in full communion.
Catholic Heart:
My thought is this: Do the funeral and let God handle the rest. I’m so mad I can’t see straight…
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It shows. Please consider before condemning the priest.
Catholic Heart:
And please…No replies telling me how important it is to shield others from the appearance of another’s sin, or how important it is that we make an example of this woman so people will know how serious we are about weeding out the sinners…And no remarks about how this poor woman does not deserve a Chrsitian burial because she “lived in sin”…
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Yes - no remarks about sin. Let’s pretend it doesn’t exist so we can all go to hell. What a concept.
Catholic Heart:
It occurs to me that Jesus came for us sinners, knowing that we have always and will always fall short of perfection. I prefer to allow HIm to judge this woman…I don’t want to touch it, and neither shoud any priest.
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A priest IS responsible for souls under his authority. He MUST “touch it”.
 
gilliam who said anything about the murder/abortion of children? the opening post was about a woman who lived in sin then died, i am a sinner also nothing to be proud about, but i would like a cathoilc burial, her sin was noticeable due to the fact she was an unmarried mother living with a divorcee, i’m sure many so called fine upstanding married catholics are guilty of sins such as lust, greed, etc,we should be careful before judging others and applauding withholding important things such as a christian burial, after all we are not so perfect ourselves
 
From Saint Faustina’s Diary - Jesus’ words in red.

** “(Let) the greatest sinners place their trust in My mercy. They have the right before others to trust in the abyss of My mercy. My daughter, write about My mercy towards tormented souls. Souls that make an appeal to My mercy, delight Me. To such souls I grant even more graces than they ask. I cannot punish even the greatest sinner if he makes an appeal to my compassion, but on the contrary, I justify him in My unfathomable and inscrutable mercy. Write: become I come as Just Judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice…” **
 
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