Catholic conservatism on the rise as priest refuses funeral for 'sinner'

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AlanFromWichita:
This is another example of the letter of the law trumping the spirit. Thanks again, conservatism. Clearly conservatism is a code word for “zero tolerance” which roughly translates into “no mercy for those we wish to hold bound.”

I don’t see how this priest denying a funeral to a Catholic is any different than other divisive tactics taken by conservative Catholics who wish to cleanse the Church of certain types of sinners.

Alan
Alan,
Did you read the WHOLE thing? Obviously you missed a fine point or two.
“She lived with her lover, so she was a public sinner,” Father Mazzotta said. “I decided not to celebrate an official Mass for this woman, who was not in communion with the Church.”
Father Mazzotta said that he had performed the liturgy of absolution for the dead. He added that he was close to the dead woman’s family and had offered them “words of comfort”.
She got a funeral…just NO Mass, as she obviously was not in communion with the church. Why should one who thumb’s their nose at Christ in life and walks away have a Mass? She obviouly did not believe nor practice the faith. Father was correct in only offering the Liturgy of Absolution for the dead. It’s not a whole lot different than any funeral service for those not in communion with the church. She wasn’t, he did the nicest of all possible things he could do. Officiated and comforted the family.

If the woman had wanted a Funeral Mass, I assume she would have asked Father before hand to hear her confession etc. and he would havebeen happy to do so.

Having worked in Hospital ministry, I have seen the challenge up close. There are those who do want to be right with the church before death. When father comes to them they are open to returning and happy to receive absolution.

There are others who do not. They make it quite clear and refuse final absolution. I suspect this woman is one of those…we see it happen quite a bit unfortunately.

They cannot have a full mass as they have made their wish’s very clear, they don’t believe and do not care to follow Christ . They don’t want a Mass. It would be more of a scandal for a priest to disregard their final decision, which we know is wrong headed, but their decision. That is honoring the womans final wish.

They can be buried with the Litugy of absolution, as a comfort to their family, and this is what the priest did.Good for him.
 
Ani Ibi:
Well I confess that I did not know that Av Chaput is First Nations. My priest and I have been looking for a candidate to ask the Pope to create a Cardinal for First Nations Peoples.
Ah, then there you and I agree wholeheartedly!!! I hope the Archbishop is elevated to the scarlet post-haste. I fear Denver will have to loose him first, however, which I think is hardly fair, but then, the Holy Father rarely calls to ask my opinion anyway. God bless.
 
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Lilyofthevalley:
Picking on the dead as this priest did, is that a Christian virture? What a horrible man.
Not hardly. He honored her wish’s more than likely. Happens. The person doesn’t want a Mass. The family is the only one who needs comfort and he did a normal Liturgy for their sake. :rolleyes:
 
I have to agree with Ani Ibi on this one. The Church needs to do everything it can to encourage proper Catholic morality. Sometimes this takes the stick, sometimes the carrot. By taking this action, the Priest in question has focused attention on a sin that many think is acceptable.

In some ways, this is better than a homily on the subject…many would listen, squirm a bit, and then take communion anyway. How are we to guard the body of Christ if not by taking action?

And what is wrong with wanting dissidents, the obstinately heterodox, and the obstinately sinful to leave the Church? If you desire to be a member of the Church, then BE IN THE CHURCH. Don’t be dishonost, don’t lie to God everytime you take communion (since you aren’t TRULY in communion if you dissent), and don’t cause scandal to the Church. I know some people would disagree that ‘shacking up’ doesn’t cause scandal because it’s so common…but perhaps we just need to take more direct action against it.
 
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Lilyofthevalley:
Picking on the dead as this priest did, is that a Christian virture? What a horrible man.
If I am not mistaken, the Catholic Church once did not allow funeral masses for those who died of suicide.

IMHO, it is charity to all those who are in despair and contemplating suicide. It says loud and clear, that this is not to be done. Despair is one of the sins against the Holy Spirit.

Now adultery is different from suicide, but the priest is still sending a message.
 
If Francis Kissling (Catholics for Free Choice) dropped dead tomorrow, would the Church be obligated to provide her a Catholic funeral?

It seems that most of these public dissenters (sorry for the redundency) get a free pass anyway.
 
Gabriel Gale:
If Francis Kissling (Catholics for Free Choice) dropped dead tomorrow, would the Church be obligated to provide her a Catholic funeral?

It seems that most of these public dissenters (sorry for the redundency) get a free pass anyway.
St.Francis stopped a man from having a Catholic Mass he said his heart was in his money box and it was:eek:
 
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gilliam:
They do not, if they don’t repent.
Actually, many of them did. As their sins were not known until after they had been dead for several years. We are all sinners, we will all be judged when we die. I just don’t think a priest or bishop should deny a Catholic a funeral because the person is a sinner. What’s next? Someone tells a priest a person masterbated before they died and didn’t make it to confession so they will deny a funeral based on that? Or someone ate like a pig and commited gluttony before they died and didn’t get a chance to repent so they don’t get a funeral either? I just don’t think it’s up to someone on Earth to judge the state of someone’s soul. Someone could have been in their bed before they died and repented for their sins.
 
The way I see it is what would the big deal be about having the Mass? It would give the people including the Priest a chance to pray for God to have mercy on her soul. Jesus hung out with prostitues, tax collectors, theives, and other sinners. He prayed for these people. He died for these people. Maybe we should at least offer a Mass and our prayers for people that die in a sinful state.

Remember what Our Lady said, many people are going to Hell because there is no one praying for their souls. Maybe we should be less judgemental on other people’s sins and pray for them.
 
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Marie:
She got a funeral…just NO Mass, as she obviously was not in communion with the church. Why should one who thumb’s their nose at Christ in life and walks away have a Mass?
Because a Mass would maybe be good for her, and/or any others (maybe even practicing Catholics) who may wish to attend to pay their respects?

She is getting a Mass now, too, so I’m not worried about it. Not a funeral Mass, but I figured I had the authority to say Mass for anybody who may be in Purgatory, simply by signing them up in the rectory. It’s amazing when you think about it, how much power that gives us.

The priest is getting a Mass as well. I figured that’s the least I could do after thinking mean thoughts about him.
She obviouly did not believe nor practice the faith. Father was correct in only offering the Liturgy of Absolution for the dead. It’s not a whole lot different than any funeral service for those not in communion with the church. She wasn’t, he did the nicest of all possible things he could do. Officiated and comforted the family.
OK, and that’s all fine. I figured the priest wasn’t trying to mess her around. Sometimes I overreact a bit at first on things, believe it or not. :rolleyes:
They cannot have a full mass as they have made their wish’s very clear, they don’t believe and do not care to follow Christ . They don’t want a Mass. It would be more of a scandal for a priest to disregard their final decision, which we know is wrong headed, but their decision. That is honoring the womans final wish.
They can be buried with the Litugy of absolution, as a comfort to their family, and this is what the priest did.Good for him.
That’s funny. Some other orthodox Catholics on this very forum were telling a grandma that in a life threatening emergency, she can give her grandchild a baptism against the wishes of its parents.

Do you believe I am sinning or bringing about scandal by having Masses said for these people? I have until Monday to change my mind. Do you think God would look more kindly or less kindly on those two people if I had the Masses said? Really that’s what I’m concerned about more than whether I’m sinning because I know I’m going to do whatever I believe is right, and if the Church doesn’t like my current plans, let her speak to me mystically and through this forum between now and Monday.

Alan
 
Dear friends

I can see that this thread is really raising emotions in people. Let’s all remain calm, we must respect each others opinions even if we don’t agree with them.

Should a person who has no intention of practising the Catholic faith be Baptised and later Confirmed into the faith? This is a dilemma constantly for Priests who know that if they Baptise a child or an adult they will not be practising Cathoilics.

There is only one Sacrament and that is Christ Jesus, there are seven ways of receiving Him in the seven Sacraments, the Priest must safeguard those Sacraments as they are intimate meetings with and reception of Christ Jesus and the Triune God into our souls by grace.

Those Sacraments cannot be willy nilly dished out just because people’s feelings might be offended. They must be safeguarded.

Alan I don’t see why you shouldn’t have a Mass said for this woman to plead for mercy on her soul. The Priest has done nothing wrong, the Funeral Mass is specific and because of her rejection of Christ’s Church during her lifetime she could not and rightly so, be afforded this grace, just as she should not have been afforded the Sacrament of Holy Communion; you yourself know and I know when I have a mortal sin on my soul we must refrain from Holy Communion until we have made a confession. God is merciful and we must now pray for this woman that she accepted God’s Mercy at the last hour and repented, offer your Mass for this intention Alan.

If you feel inclined to offer a Mass for the Priest offer it for his sustained Vocation in Christ Jesus, but to offer it because YOU think he was wrong would be very objective and in all likelihood misguided.

I agree with your wife Alan, we should whilst people are alive offer Masses for their souls and other intetnions, this is very rarely done. It is so imperative to pray for each other during our lifetime’s and the Holy Mass is the greatest and highest prayer of the Church. It’s my understanding that our Pope Benedict 16th has recommended that Catholics do this very thing and offer Masses for the living as well as for the dead.

Alan I like your posts, you have a very great zeal for God which is sorely lacking in society, in your zeal however, remember to protect God as much as you would also let His love flow through you to others.

God Bless you all and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
**No matter what, I still do not think this priest made the best decision possible for that woman, her fmiliy and others by denying her a Christian burial. It showed what I believe to be a remarkable lack of charity towards the woman and her family. **

**If a “sinner” can be denied a funeral, who is next, and what will the reason be? We…Not the priest, nor any of us…can be sure of whether or not a person has repented…Why take the chance? Why not give family and friends the comfort of a Requiem Mass? The woman is dead…Her fate is in God’s hands…But, her family and friends are still here, and deserve the opportunity to mourn her passing with a proper Catholic funeral. **

I was, and continue to be, angry that this has happened. It never should have…Imagine that only the "perfect’ Catholics were allowed to attend Mass or recieve the sacraments…The Churches would be quite empty, if the truth were to be told. Jesus understood…and understands… that we are a sinful people, trying to do our best…He knows we fail…That is why he came…

My prayers are with that family who was shunned by the Chruch because of the percieved sinfulness of their loved one…What a terrible thing for htem to endure…It has, I am sure, compounded their hurt and grief.

I hear a lot of self-righteous breast beating going on here. I hear that ugly “Thank God that I am not like these others”. Lets hope all of you who are so quick to condemn are not so quickly condemned when the time comes. Let us hope you find mercy and hope.
 
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cameron_lansing:
Denial of Catholic funeral rites

Canon 1184:§1. Unless they have given some signs of repentance before their death, the following are to be deprived of ecclesiastical funeral rites: (1) notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics; (2) persons who had chosen the cremation of their own bodies for reasons opposed to the Christian faith; (3) other manifest sinners for whom ecclesiastical funeral rites cannot be granted without public scandal to the faithful. §2. If some doubt should arise, the local ordinary is to be consulted; and his judgment is to be followed. (*1983 CLSA translation)

We have to be careful about setting up a false dichotemy between the law and the spirit. The law not only only expresses a right of the Christian faithful but also manifests a benevolence and mercy regarding ecclesiastical funeral rites. The Church wants to bring the mercy of Christ to the grieving even as it commits the deceased to his mercy as well. It is not a conservative or liberal thing in my estimation. Perhaps there are some points worth consideration here.

As canon 1176 §1 provides, the Christian faithful departed are to be given ecclesiastical funeral rites according to the norm of law. Other canons are “generous” regarding arrangements (c. 1177) and about who may receive ecclesiastical funeral rites (c. 1183). The law however is strict about denial of this right. In fact, the denial of a right in the Church should be understood as a last resort action. In a sense, the threat or possibility of such a denial is intended to elicit repentence and reform from the erring member of the faithful.

"Father Mazzotta said that he had performed the liturgy of absolution for the dead. " This sounds like the technical term for a prayer said over the body following a requiem Mass, but other that that, I don’t know what that means in the article’s context. One wonders if there had been sacramental confession while the woman was living. Then of course, the priest was bound by the seal and obliged to avoid direct and indirect disclosure.

At any rate, if the lady had shown some sign of repentence before death, even apart from that placed in sacramental confession, the priest would still have acted illicitly (and improperly) in denying her ecclesiastical funeral rites. If so, such an arbitrary use of authority is lamentable.

In the case of any doubt about whether the conditions were met for the denial, including whether or not public scandal to the faithful would occur if the funeral was conducted, the case should have been submitted to the local ordinary (usually the diocesan bishop in this context) and his judgment followed. Sometimes a greater scandal is created among the faithful when ecclesiastical funeral rites are denied.

So then, even though such cohabitation presents an objectively grave moral situation, by itself the condition of her having being a manifest sinner was inadequate to invoke the denial mentioned in canon 1184. The lack of repentence and the scandal would also have to be present beyond positive doubt.

But when the conditions of the canon are met, they simply state a reality: that someone has deliberately, obstinately, gravely and publicly made a choice to seriously break communion with the Church in some way. If that happens, Church authority is bound to honor the wishes placed by the decedent in this life.
Thanks for posting the canon. We should think with the mind of the Church and be odebient. If a denial of a catholic mass is what the Church declares for these situations, then the law should be followed.

How is it a good example for others to think that they may live in the flesh, reject Church teachings publicly, then get a mass after death which may lead others to think living as they did would lead to salvation?

While we can’t know the disposition of her soul, her public actions contradict the faith.
 
I prefer to err on the side of saving souls…denying a Mass in no way can help her salvation, while a Church praying for someone’s soul can. Our job is to get as many souls into heaven as possible. All these perfect souls don’t need our help–the sinner’s soul does. Yesterday I was on the fence about this…I think I’m leaning towards not denying a funeral Mass…and it’s not a Sacrament. Denying Communion while someone is cohabitating isn’t something I’d be objectionable to, depending on all the FACTS which no one would know except the couple and the priest whom, hopefully, would be hearing their confession…but a funeral Mass…even with that Canon (and I’m a bit shaky on legalese, even such plainly written stuff as that) I’m not sure that it was proper…no one knows all the facts and unless that priest heard her confession or spoke to her, no one knows what was going on between her and our God the months prior to her death.

Penitent
 
Catholic Heart said:
**No matter what, I still do not think this priest made the best decision possible for that woman, her fmiliy and others by denying her a Christian burial. It showed what I believe to be a remarkable lack of charity towards the woman and her family. **

**If a “sinner” can be denied a funeral, who is next, and what will the reason be? We…Not the priest, nor any of us…can be sure of whether or not a person has repented…Why take the chance? Why not give family and friends the comfort of a Requiem Mass? The woman is dead…Her fate is in God’s hands…But, her family and friends are still here, and deserve the opportunity to mourn her passing with a proper Catholic funeral. **

I was, and continue to be, angry that this has happened. It never should have…Imagine that only the "perfect’ Catholics were allowed to attend Mass or recieve the sacraments…The Churches would be quite empty, if the truth were to be told. Jesus understood…and understands… that we are a sinful people, trying to do our best…He knows we fail…That is why he came…

My prayers are with that family who was shunned by the Chruch because of the percieved sinfulness of their loved one…What a terrible thing for htem to endure…It has, I am sure, compounded their hurt and grief.

I hear a lot of self-righteous breast beating going on here. I hear that ugly “Thank God that I am not like these others”. Lets hope all of you who are so quick to condemn are not so quickly condemned when the time comes. Let us hope you find mercy and hope.

Dear friend

I think you are missing an important distinction between a sinner and a defiant sinner. We are all sinners, the Priests are as well. You have seen this as a sinner was deprived of a Catholic burial, this is not the case. She was deprived the Mass of a Catholic funeral because she openly, willfully and intently refused to conform to Catholic teaching in respect of her relationship with the man she lived with. She had no intention of repenting and this is clear by her continued actions until death of residing with this man as though married without the Sacrament of Marriage.

If simplistically a repenting sinner had been refused a Funeral Mass, then I could understand your outrage, but this is not what happened. If you are outraged at this situation that has been brought to light, would you be equally outraged if someone in mortal sin was refused Holy Communion or if someone who had no intention of living the Gospel message and the Catholic faith was refused Baptism? In the UK if a Catholic person marries a person who is not Catholic, the full Catholic Mass of Matrimony is witheld, they can be married in the Catholic Church but the full Mass is witheld, this is correct and just or would you also disagree with that too and be outraged? The Eucharist recreates us, transforms us to be more Christ-like by His grace, this is a wonder, we do not let anyone who is not Catholic and in a state of grace recieve this Sacrament, is that unjust also, are you outraged that so many do not receive this special, transforming and miraculous Sacrament?

You seem most clearly to have your wires crossed over this. As Fix said in their post ‘While we can’t know the disposition of her soul, her public actions contradict the faith.’ This is true and we are all accountable to our actions. I would hope and pray that this lady repented at the last hour and is now in Heaven with Jesus. As for the Priest, he has God’s law and must uphold the law, (as should we all) further to this must also see to it that the Sacraments are not abused and remain protected.

I cannot see any Priest taking such an action lightly; his intimate knowledge of her must have led to this action, that being his mortal soul relies also on his actions. Catholicism is not something we do when it suits us or when we feel like it, God’s law is God’s law and we either accept it or we do not. God is merciful, but He is also just. This women, it would appear has rejected during her lifetime God’s mercy in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and has not repented, turned her life around and striven to resolve the situation of her living arrangements, it is therefore right to withold a full Catholic Funeral Mass for this woman.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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Hildebrand:
If I am not mistaken, the Catholic Church once did not allow funeral masses for those who died of suicide.

IMHO, it is charity to all those who are in despair and contemplating suicide. It says loud and clear, that this is not to be done. Despair is one of the sins against the Holy Spirit.

Now adultery is different from suicide, but the priest is still sending a message.
I believe there has been some recent thinking in the Church which says that suicide is not always entirely rational and therefore some question exists as to the presence of free choice. Where there is no free choice, then sin cannot always be imputed.

I hear some posters making (false) analogies between the kind of sin which the woman in question chose and other forms of sin. Evidently the woman knew she was in a state of mortal (as opposed to venial) sin. Yet she persisted in rejecting God’s grace. Because she rejected God’s grace, she subjected herself to God’s justice.

Of course this extreme situation conjures fears among the faithful or those hoping they are faithful. The thought of being separated from God after death (and even in life) is frightening. We have a remedy for this fear: Confession.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Do you believe I am sinning or bringing about scandal by having Masses said for these people? I have until Monday to change my mind. Do you think God would look more kindly or less kindly on those two people if I had the Masses said? Really that’s what I’m concerned about more than whether I’m sinning because I know I’m going to do whatever I believe is right, and if the Church doesn’t like my current plans, let her speak to me mystically and through this forum between now and Monday.Alan
I am speaking to you mystically from the Troo North. :eek:
  1. I think the question you ask is important for all of us, but particularly you because you are about to make a decision.
  2. Why not post your question on the Ask an Apologist Forum at the top of the CA forum list?
  3. Why not also ask one of the priests at Mass tomorrow?
  4. Then let us know the answer to the question can we licitly request a Mass to be said for someone who has refused or been refused a Funeral Mass?
 
Catholic Heart:
I hear a lot of self-righteous breast beating going on here. I hear that ugly “Thank God that I am not like these others”. Lets hope all of you who are so quick to condemn are not so quickly condemned when the time comes. Let us hope you find mercy and hope.
Yup, no self righteousness here.
 
Catholic Heart:
**If a “sinner” can be denied a funeral, who is next, and what will the reason be? We…Not the priest, nor any of us…can be sure of whether or not a person has repented…Why take the chance? Why not give family and friends the comfort of a Requiem Mass? The woman is dead…Her fate is in God’s hands…But, her family and friends are still here, and deserve the opportunity to mourn her passing with a proper Catholic funeral. **
I’m glad Hitler had no kids asking for a Catholic funeral.
 
Catholic Heart said:
I hear a lot of self-righteous breast beating going on here. I hear that ugly “Thank God that I am not like these others”. Lets hope all of you who are so quick to condemn are not so quickly condemned when the time comes. Let us hope you find mercy and hope.

The most poignant example of self-righteous breast-beating is the refusal to read the Church’s teaching on topics for which some hold angry and stubborn opinions where the individual opinion supercedes the needs of the community to which the individual subscribes and countermands the teaching of God through His Church.

Let me simplify: Action. Then Reaction. Choice. Then Consequence. The Consequence can be Mercy. Or the Consequence can be Justice. Depending on the nature of the Choice. The woman in question chose Justice over Mercy.

There is a difference between righteousness and self-righteousness. The righteous are righteous by virtue of their surrender to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ invested the authority to teach in His Church. The relevant Canon of the Church has been posted. It is not God Who is harsh. It is what is not God which is harsh. The woman in question chose what is not God. Over and over and over again.

Are you suggesting that we live in a state of lawlessness and then call it Catholicism?
 
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