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springbreeze
Guest
Ani Ibi:
Excellent post!
God Bless you and much love and peace to you
Teresa
Dear friend
Excellent post!
God Bless you and much love and peace to you
Teresa
Catholic conservatism on the rise as priest refuses funeral for 'sinner'
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F
fix
Guest
Ani Ibi:
Some of the best logic I have read on this site. Good work.
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Marie
Guest
I am pretty sure, by the tone of Fathers response, that he did in fact try to help her. Unless you have worked with the situation, I suppose most people automatically assume, he came in with this decision after the fact. Not usually the case. I work in ministry with such cases and they haunt me no end. There are more than a few who want NO part of the church’s sacraments. It’s shocking, and frustrating, but in the end it is their choice. They cannot, nor do they want the sacraments. The families, on the other hand want some solice. The priest has to honor the person first…the person’s refusal takes president so, no reconcilliation,equals NO MASS. The lady in question obviously made that decision ahead of time, like many I have seen.
The family get’s the next best thing the church has to offer. Litergy of Absolution…That is what Father did. It is morally, and charitably correct. End of story. Sad, but that’s the way it goes with some of these cases. Sometime it works out that the person does have a change of heart before death. Now those are the one’s who’s Mass is the wonder and joy of all heaven. I try and remember that, and continue to pray for those who turn their back on Holy Mother Church.
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Nohome
Guest
Perhaps we could start a list of all the priests, bishops, cardinals and popes that should be denied (or been denied) a funeral Mass. Once again the high and mighty fail to see the plank in their own eye. My Jesus is about forgiveness and redemption.
Nohome
Nohome
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Marie
Guest
Perhaps we should all learn to Follow Christ, and adhear to the Commandments. That would be better yet. Obidenience…now that’s a novel thought.
Christ didn’t say Do as you wish…yada! Yada! There are rules and requirements to get Forgivness and Redemption…The goody two shoes approach saves NO one.
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Nohome
Guest
True, funerals save nobody either, they are far more for the living than the dead. Denial of a Mass is punishment for the living family. Perhaps this will make them decide to never set foot in a Catholic Church again.
Nohome
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Marie
Guest
Perhaps they are better Catholic’s than that, and know how Sacred the Mass is.
We can always hope. On the other hand, anyone who does call themselves Catholic ought to know, so perhaps they will learn and understand that it is not to be profaned just for the sake of someones feelings.For a serious reason, in accord with the norm of Church law, the Funeral Mass or Funeral Liturgy may be denied.** (Cf. Can. 1184)**
If the member of the faithful had not been practicing the Catholic faith, especially if he or she without good cause had not been participating in the Sunday Eucharist, it may be more appropriate to celebrate the Funeral Liturgy outside of Mass. The judgment regarding the matter belongs to the parish priest. **In this case, it is not inappropriate to have Masses offered for the eternal rest of the deceased. **
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Nohome
Guest
It was attitudes just like this that made me realize I am not Catholic and never was. You can have your institutional, legalistic, “we’re better than you” brand of religion. It lacks the campasion of Christ and the true meaning of being Christian.Perhaps they are better Catholic’s than that, and know how Sacred the Mass is.
Nohome
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Marie
Guest
Sounds as if you adopted the attitude which asails many people today. Many want to follow Christ at a distance. Many want to live life on their own terms and expect no consequences for their morally bad living. Obeidience is a word few people today know or care to use. Yet, Christ asked all to do just that. Follow Him, not the ways of the world. Christ’s love is all encompassing and all compassionate…but it is no free lunch. He wasn’t fond of Blind Dog’s or those who perported to love Him but would not obey.
Bible lite is a good fuzzy feeling many people choose…but it entrenches one in the muck and the mire of sin and less and less striving to please God. Mercy and compassion are false and empty when people do not follow the commandments and the church turns a blind eye. That is not what a good parent does, let alone a good shepherd.
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Brad
Guest
I agree. There will be long term gains. It actually is proven in many seminaries, orders, churches, and conferences today.
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Brad
Guest
My definition of quiet dissent is someone that disagrees with the Church but noone is publically aware of it. You describe a different situation which should be addressed by teachers (teachers defined = parish priest, Bishop, religious instructer etc.)
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johnpaullover
Guest
buffalo said:
The preist should do the funeral anyway. He is being very judgemental and even if she was a sinner, he should do it.
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Fox
Guest
John,
I follow the priest’s judgement on this he just followed what it is in the Canon Law:
Canon 1184:§1. Unless they have given some signs of repentance before their death, the following are to be deprived of ecclesiastical funeral rites: (1) notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics; (2) persons who had chosen the cremation of their own bodies for reasons opposed to the Christian faith; (3) other manifest sinners for whom ecclesiastical funeral rites cannot be granted without public scandal to the faithful. §2. If some doubt should arise, the local ordinary is to be consulted; and his judgment is to be followed. (*1983 CLSA translation)
I follow the priest’s judgement on this he just followed what it is in the Canon Law:
Canon 1184:§1. Unless they have given some signs of repentance before their death, the following are to be deprived of ecclesiastical funeral rites: (1) notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics; (2) persons who had chosen the cremation of their own bodies for reasons opposed to the Christian faith; (3) other manifest sinners for whom ecclesiastical funeral rites cannot be granted without public scandal to the faithful. §2. If some doubt should arise, the local ordinary is to be consulted; and his judgment is to be followed. (*1983 CLSA translation)
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Ani Ibi:
Excellent points. I can concur with all of them…and still say that it would have been merciful and compassionate (“the greatest of these is love/charity,” depending on the translation you prefer) to have given her a funeral Mass. It’s not as though she’s going to latter throw it back in his face by continuing her sinful lifestyle, thereby making a mockery of it. She’s dead. It would have been the last thing the Church could have done for her and her family.
No.
Excellent points. I can concur with all of them…and still say that it would have been merciful and compassionate (“the greatest of these is love/charity,” depending on the translation you prefer) to have given her a funeral Mass. It’s not as though she’s going to latter throw it back in his face by continuing her sinful lifestyle, thereby making a mockery of it. She’s dead. It would have been the last thing the Church could have done for her and her family.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Alan, Our Lord will remember your kindness.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Not to dump on you, but most of the people on this thread who support our priest (and he is ours) are more than likely not "institutional"istic nor legalistic nor of the attitude that “we’re better than you.” There has been a marked rise in the notion that people who profess to be Catholic can live in disregard of the Church’s teachings. Every Catholic on this thread is concerned about that. We may not agree precisely on what the outcome of this should have been, but if you polled us all individually, we’d probably tell you that if never should have come up anyway, because she should have regularized her relationships so as to not cut herself off from the Church. The Church must be merciful, but She also cannot lie. The Church cannot lie, but She also must be merciful. Either way, in the same breath, both statements are true.
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Marie
Guest
One more time…The priest more than likely, gave her every opportunity. She refused. I know that seems strange to people who have not dealt with the problem…but fact is it happens everyday. Try hospital ministry or ministry for the homebound and terminal ill sometime. It’s an eye opener.
It freaked me out the first time…good grief! There are people who verbily and strongly make their choice known…they prefer “Hell.”It’s gut wreching but that is the way it is. Mark it down…THEY DO NOT WANT A MASS. THEY DECLARE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE. So just how does going against their wish’s to remain as they are, in mortal sin and thumbing their nose at God Merciful??? It’s NOT.
The family can have Mass’s said for the repose of her soul, later. And they should. And the church would not deny them to do so. But her last will was NOT to be counted as a Catholic in good standing. She deserves in Mercy to have her wish’s carried out. No Mass. No absolution. Yeah! There are people that actually want it that way. I am pretty sure that is why Father was so upset. He did his best…I have seen priest’s cry when this happens. It’s a real hard ministry when the person is bound to reject Gods Mercy.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Sorry, where in the article does it say she declined a Mass? Did I miss a link? Or do you mean “by her behavior, she clearly indicated that she didn’t want a Mass?”One more time…The priest more than likely, gave her every opportunity. She refused. I know that seems strange to people who have not dealt with the problem…but fact is it happens everyday. Try hospital ministry or ministry for the homebound and terminal ill sometime. It’s an eye opener.
It’s gut wreching but that is the way it is. Mark it down…THEY DO NOT WANT A MASS. THEY DECLARE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE. So just how does going against their wish’s to remain as they are, in mortal sin and thumbing their nose at God Merciful??? It’s NOT.
The family can have Mass’s said for the repose of her soul, later. And they should. And the church would not deny them to do so. But her last will was NOT to be counted as a Catholic in good standing. She deserves in Mercy to have her wish’s carried out. No Mass. No absolution. Yeah! There are people that actually want it that way. I am pretty sure that is why Father was so upset. He did his best…I have seen priest’s cry when this happens. It’s a real hard ministry when the person is bound to reject Gods Mercy.
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fix
Guest
Hae you read any of these posts? If you read them and reflect on what they state about the nature and obligation of the one Church founded by Christ you would see that the issue here, like almost every single issue regarding following Christ, comes down to authority.
Who is the authority to determine what Christ asks of His Church? Are we each a small god who decides for themselves, or did Christ leave a living authority because these issues occur everyday?
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Marie
Guest
Her behavior and more than likely, as I have seen happen a few times, that is their stated wish when Father offers them the sacrament of the sick and dying. Father is NOT going to disclose that part, but people do state their preference in these situations.
It’s a hard thing to wittness let me tell you.
But freewill is respected by God and by the church. 
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