Catholic Considering Islam

[TobyLue]

I have not had a chance to read through this whole thread or if IrishDude is still hanging around but here are some thoughts that are troublesome.

You have no idea what I have lost trying to seek God and find the Truth

This statement is rather odd. “…trying to seek God and find the Truth”. God has lead you to the Truth but you still cant see it. The Truth is in the Church Jesus (who is God but is denied by Islam) founded. Jesus is the way to heaven, not Muhammad, not Buddha, not Shiva. God has led you to the Church and now you need to study more about it.

I studied theology like crazy, I went to Mass, and I followed God*.*

Somebody mentioned that you were 17, if so how long did you study theology like crazy. Did you go to a strong Catholic University or did you just grab books from some shelf read them by yourself and consider that study. When you went to Mass, what did you learn about the Mass in RCIA. If you didn’t get anything out of the Mass and were expecting to get something out of it, then that is wrong. We don’t go to Mass to get anything out of it. We go to GIVE. Give worship to God… Also “I followed God” past tense? Who are you following now? Do you think that God is playing games with you, lead you to His Truth in the Church He founded, then He is now going to lead you away? God does not play games.

I am certain though that Muslims are worshiping the same God as Christians and Jews.

This may be true but they are worshiping God in the wrong way, in a deficient manner, or have a different concept of who God is. We are to worship God in the way HE WANTS US, not in a way that we want to. He left us HIS Church to show us how we are to worship Him.

I’m not going to do anything crazy, just continue to study Islam along with many other faiths.

This is also very troubling. You have the fullness of Truth in your hand, but apparently you do not believe it if you are continuing to study Islam ALONG WITH MANY OTHER FAITHS?----------- WHY? -----Also if you believe in the Truths of the Catholic Church, do you believe with all you heart that the Eucharist is Jesus’ body and blood? You are going to throw that away? Read again Matthew 6. Are you going to leave like many of His disciples who claimed Jesus was speaking nonsense and that was a ‘HARD TEACHING’? If you accepted Catholicism, you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. If you leave then you will be denying Jesus, and remember, Jesus’ word when He said, if we deny Him, He will deny us before the Father who is in Heaven. (Matt 10:33; Mk 8:38; Lk. 9:26; 2 Tim 2:12) WHAT HORRIBLE WORDS THOSE WILL BE WHEN WE DIE AND THEY WILL BE COMING FROM JESUS. “ I -do- not -know -you,- depart- from -me- into- everlasting- fire.”, , and .

Another trouble and suspicious statement is

Muhammad (pbuh) is a wonderful example.

This statement is also very troubling. Many Christians here refer to the prophet of Islam as Muhammad, Mohammed or however way you want to spell it, but only the Muslins will place the (pbuh) after his name, indicating a reverence to the prophet. You seem to have already yielded to the concept that Muhammad must be praised by using the (pbuh-praise be upon him) after his name. So you see that this and many other statements is why many here have become suspicious. I cant say that I blame them. Why praise some man who was intent in converting by the sword, and a religion that is intent in conquering the world rather than worshiping and praising a man who was God Himself, Jesus?

 

[Contarini]

Psst!, someone should tell Hadi ‘corn’ is also mentioned in the old English Bibles, but not in the literal sense.

It’s literal. Just not American.

You see, ‘corn’ in the Bible

Well no, in the KJV–and in British usage to this day.

Edwin

 

[Selene]

Look at it this way. Suppose scientists agreed that there is a 10th planet out beyond Pluto, even though no one had seen it; and one group of scientists said it was 10 billion miles from the sun and has no moons, but the other group said no, it is 15 billion miles from the sun and has two moons. Do the two groups believe in the same planet?

Wow! I’ve been gone only for a few hours and already so many people responded on this thread. I have to go back and read everything.

Sedonaman, no Muslim have ever said that they worship Ra, the Sun God or Zeus or Odin. They have always profess a belief in the God of Abraham. And who are we to judge them as liars? The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I quoted, have already acknowledge that Muslims profess a belief in the God of Abraham and TOGETHER, we worship the same true God, but that is as far as our relationship with them goes. We have never acknowledge their doctrines nor their books.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[Selene]

Hi Selene

Welcome to the forum. If you don’t mind me asking I’m just curious where do you get your information about Islam are you a convert?

Hafa Adai. “Hafa Adai” means “hello” in my native language. And thank you. I enjoy this forum board. I am not a convert. I am a Roman Catholic, and a majority of my people are Roman Catholics. I have read the Qu’ran and have spoken to other Muslims in other forum boards. I have also read an interesting book from an Arab Muslim who converted to Christianity entitled The Prophet and the Messiah. ’

 

[famdigy]

How can you interpret the Qur’an literally on one hand and figuratively on the other?

Good question,

Most of the verses of the Quran are clear and decisive. There is no ambiguity in them. They are known as the muhkamat. They relate to the fundamentals of the faith, such as the oneness of Allah, the directions pertaining to the practice of the faith and the laws governing the day to day life of the faithful. They can neither be changed nor modified. Any man of average intelligence can understand and follow them.

The figurative verses are known as mutashabihat, they are the verses which have been composed in subtle and profound diction and style. They carry implications other than the literal meanings, and therefore, are capable of giving different significations, like “The hand of Allah is on their hands” in verse 10 of al Fath. Only the men of understanding who possess a higher level of intelligence contemplate and find out the meaningful implications of such verses. Average and ordinary minds cannot figure out or have knowledge of the real purport of such verses, and if they try this on their own, they blunder and follow a wrong path. Accordingly, we have to rely on the infallibles to explain the meaning of these figurative verses. In our view, they are the Prophet & his family (as)

[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

 

[planten]

yes, they would “smite at their necks” with corn husks and stalks.

From what I can find, there is only two verses in the koran that states the word “sword”…

(Then he said): Bring them back to me, and fell to slashing (with his **sword **their) legs and necks.
( سورة ص , Sad, Chapter #38, Verse #33)

Thanks to GodAllah Almighty. jakasaki, you could not find the actual word “Sword” in the Quran. I see that you have good knowledge and collection of useful quotes (links). You have been good to put the words “swords” in brackets. That is honesty…

About the verse 38:33, it is a big mistake of our earlier Muslim scholars who misinterpretted that verse which is related to the beautiful horses of King Suleman. He called for those fast running horses to be brought to him. Then he watched their speed in action He called the horses back towards him and watched them and admired them and he caressed (rubbed) their necks and thies with his hands.

He did.not get hold of any sword to slaughter them. He caressed them with his loving hands. Please remember that there is word “massaha” in that verse too. That is from the same root as “Masiha”. Does Masiha mean " slashing (with his sword) "??. I am sure Masaha and Masiha are good words of anointing or rubbing only. i.e. touching with love.

It is not your mistake jakasaki. It is the mistake of the very early Muslim scholars who mistranslated the verse.

 

[sedonaman]

…
We have never acknowledge their doctrines nor their books.
…

How can you say this and still claim they worship the same God? It is clear you did not read the analysis I posted for you. Religious texts, doctrines, and books are suppose to give an accurate view of God, the universe, and mankind. Just consider the 99 names for Allah. Not one says he is love. All you have done is repeat what you said before.

 

[planten]

How can you say this and still claim they worship the same God? It is clear you did not read the analysis I posted for you. Religious texts, doctrines, and books are suppose to give an accurate view of God, the universe, and mankind. Just consider the 99 names for Allah. Not one says he is love. All you have done is repeat what you said before.

**sedonaman, You have no clue of things. One name (attribute) of Allah is Al-Wadood. That means the Loving. Please correct your list of 99 names.

Also may I ask you if your God (father) is merciful? Prove it by your book please**.

 

[Selene]

How can you say this and still claim they worship the same God? It is clear you did not read the analysis I posted for you. Religious texts, doctrines, and books are suppose to give an accurate view of God, the universe, and mankind. Just consider the 99 names for Allah. Not one says he is love. All you have done is repeat what you said before.

My Christian brother, the Catechism of the Catholic Church have already acknowleged the Muslims to have the belief in the God of Abraham, and the Catechism is from the Vatican. We are Roman Catholics and we follow the Vatican. As I said, the Muslims have always stated that they worship the God of Abraham, and who are we to judge them as liars?

Yes, I know about the 99 names of Allah and all 99 names still apply even to our God. Some of those names that Muslims call Allah are “al-qadim” (The Eternal), “al-adil” (The Just), “al-malik” (The King), “al-khalig” (The Creator), “al-rabb” (The Lord), and the list goes on. But all these names are also names that we use for our God. He is also The Eternal, The Just, The King, The Creator, and The Lord, and so on.

Yes, God is also love. That is not found in the 99 names; therefore, as Catholics don’t you think that we should open a dialogue with the Muslims and tell them that God is also love so they can understand the way we do? After all, we are the church that Christ built, and Christ instructed us to spread the good news. The good news is that He loved all mankind so much that He came down and died for all mankind so that all sins can be forgiven… for God is love.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[Selene]

**sedonaman, You have no clue of things. One name (attribute) of Allah is Al-Wadood. That means the Loving. Please correct your list of 99 names.

Also may I ask you if your God (father) is merciful? Prove it by your book please**.

Salaam,

Ah…you see! We even stand corrected. “Al-Wadud” does indeed mean “The Loving One.” It is indeed in one of the 99 names. I missed that one. It is found near the bottom of the list.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[elwill]

Yes, God is also love. That is not found in the 99 names

al wadood is one of his names which means the love , and it’s mentioned in quran also

85-14 -And He is the Oft Forgiving, Full of loving kindness,

Peace be with you,

 

[Selene]

**
Also may I ask you if your God (father) is merciful? Prove it by your book please**.

God our Father is merciful and it is in our Bible. We are taught to love our neighbors and to love our enemies. We are taught to pray for those who persecute us. We are taught these things because our Father in Heaven loves all sinners and forgives their sins. We are all His children.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[sedonaman]

**sedonaman, You have no clue of things. One name (attribute) of Allah is Al-Wadood. That means the Loving. Please correct your list of 99 names.
**

Well, you said it, not me. As samaan pointed out,

Allah’s will is an excellent point, and you have found a key problem with Islam.

He went on to say they [the 99] are all adjectives, not nouns; therefore, they are attributes as you say, not essences. “Essence” is what something is, an attribute is not. Sorta like “sword” is an attribute of the Qur’an, but not its essence.

Samaan continues:

Adjectives, as we know, describe a noun, and that noun must refer to something concrete. Since Allah is beyond names, they describe something greater, and that is the internal nature of Allah.
In Christianity, we know from 1 John 4:8 that “Deus Caritas Est”- God is Love (noun). That is the nature of God in as concrete human terms as we can understand.
What about Allah?
Allah’s nature is never known fully, and when it’s spoken about, it’s always spoken in terms of his will.

So, Allah can be like any one of those 99, but only if he wills it. But your texts don’t say he is any of the noun forms of those attributes. Since he can change his will anytime, how would anyone know what he wills at any particular moment anyway? All those 99 can be summed up in one statement: Allah is pure will, which would be an essence.

This alone is reason to suspect that the spirit that Mohammed was supposed to have seen in the cave was not Gabriel, but Satan. Satan was cast out of paradise because of a contest of wills with God. It takes only one small step of reasoning to conclude that Satan would present himself as a god of will and fool people with clever words.

Also may I ask you if your God (father) is merciful? Prove it by your book please.

You may not ask because that is O. T., and you know it. Therefore, I am ignoring your question and demand for proof.

 

[sedonaman]

…
We are taught these things because our Father in Heaven loves all sinners and forgives their sins. We are all His children.

Muslims here have said they are slaves of Allah. So, if our God is the same as their Allah, all Christians must be His slaves. Is that what the CCC says?

 

[dzheremi]

Personally, I am fine being a slave of Allah. It is an honor. I just don’t recognize the Islamic Allah as being a true representation of God. It is distorted and false, for all the reasons that Samaan pointed out and more. I’ve never had a problem with the first part of the shahada (la illaaha ilallaah), only the second (wa Muhammadun etc). I am eternally grateful that Christianity offers a deeper, more significant, entirely complete relationship with God, rather than the one-dimensional “slave-master” dynamic that Islam appears to offer. In Christianity, this is but one aspect or one way to describe our relationship to God. If it were our only allowed way to concieve of God, I’m not sure I’d be religious. It seems awfully dreary and shallow, this Islamic understanding. Abstract to the point of being entirely meaningless, at least in the way that the vast majority of Muslims here have tried to describe it.

 

[Aydan]

Muslims here have said they are slaves of Allah. So, if our God is the same as their Allah, all Christians must be His slaves. Is that what the CCC says?

Okay now you’re splitting hairs here. When Muslims say they are slaves of God it means that they are saying they’re submitting themselves 100% to God and his will. Everything they do they do in the name of God. Do we not as Catholics submit ourselves completely to God? Yes the catechism and the Bible both state that we should love God with all our hearts and minds so yes it does say that it just doesn’t mention the word slave that’s all. If you want to personally believe yourself that Muslims do not believe in the same God that’s fine go ahead, The church via Pope John Paul II and the catechism affirm that Muslims Christians and Jewish people believe in the same God even though we have** different concepts of God it is still the same one Almighty God.**

 

[sedonaman]

…
The church via Pope John Paul II and the catechism affirm that Muslims Christians and Jewish people believe in the same God even though we have** different concepts of God it is still the same one Almighty God.**

What exactly did he say?

 

[sedonaman]

Okay now you’re splitting hairs here. …

I don’t think so.
From the CCC:

Prologue
I.
The Life of Man—To Know and Love God

1
God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

 

[Aydan]

I’m not going to even address this question besides even if I did it’s clear your mind is made up and nothing I do or say will change that. just like there’s nothing you can do to convince me that Muslims believe in a different God than Christians because they don’t.

What exactly did he say?

 

[Aydan]

I don’t think so.
From the CCC:

again you’re just using pieces of the catechism to fit your belief it goes back to what I said they have different concept of God but it is still the same God. Furthermore that still doesn’t change my belief. Look at the way you worded it** you don’t think so **meaning it is just your personal interpretation of the catechism which goes back to my original point that you personallybelieve Christians believe in a different God than Muslims and I disagree with your belief. I understand perfectly that’s the way you interpret the catechism it’s just not the way I do.