Catholic Considering Islam

[Cecilianus]

I have a feeling that this thread is going disintegrate into a fury of arguments and harsh words but I pray not…

I became Catholic in 2007 after a year of RCIA. I have struggled to be the best Catholic I could be, I studied theology like crazy, I went to Mass, and I followed God.

I have to say that I am impressed with Islam, very very impressed. The Qur’an is like a beautiful ray of light. Muhammad (pbuh) is a wonderful example. The Muslims I know follow Christ’s example better than most Catholics, they are more peaceful and loving than I thought possible. Their devotion to God is absolute. And the evidence for Islam is piling up for me. I know many here have negative opinions about Islam, Muslims, and the Prophet Muhammad and I did too once but now that I have put a lot of time into studying the religion and talking to many people, I have discovered the true Islam. True Islam is not the fanatical religion of the media nor is it a woman-hating, gun-toting, violent mockery of religion as I had been taught. It very well might be the most peaceful faith on earth. God is in Islam, I can’t deny it any longer. Believe me I’ve tried!
I love the Church, but God has led me to Her and God may be leading me to Islam. I am willing to put everything else aside to follow God where He wills, even if I must put aside my beloved Mother Church. I will submit to God in all things, He will lead me where He wills.

I hesitate to ask…thoughts?

please keep it civil

pax vobiscum
Irish

I’m coming into this thread late without having read through all 12 pages of comments, so my apologies if I repeat something.

Discussions about Islam inevitably end up with people talking past each other because there is no single monolithic reality behind Islam - it is a spectrum, ranging from the ugly/demonic (fundamentalism) to the absolutely sublime (such as tawwasuf). You say you see the Qur’an as a beautiful ray of light - there are many beautiful rays of light within Islam, such as the simple piety of the believer bowing down to God five times a day (which Pius XII saw as such a consolation to him), the beauty of the ahadith (“I was a hidden treasure and longed to be known…” among others), the communion with God experienced - genuinely, according to most orthodox Catholic scholars (Robert Charles Zaehner and Edward Ingram Watkin among others) - of the Sufis, the truly beautiful Ninety-Nine Names of God, and most especially the tender devotion of many Muslims to the Sayyidatna Maryam. Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, in his beautiful book “The World’s First Love, Mary the Mother of God” devotes an entire chapter to the Qur’an, and Christians in the Spain of Alfonso el Sabio sang hymns to the Virgin specifically mentioning her miracles performed upon the intercession of her Islamic devotees.

However, all the beauty of Islam points me back to my Catholic Faith. Islam certainly has truth - but Catholicism has the fullness of truth. The mutawwasuf Sheikh 'Isa Nur al-Din (born under the name of Frithjof Schuon) distinguished between the exoteric form of a religion and its esoteric core, the latter of which he strictly identified both with truth and with sanctity. Although Schuon had converted to what he thought was “esoteric” Islam, he singled out Christianity as unique in that, unlike all other religions, its exoteric form of Catholicism WAS identical to its esoterism - while for Islam, sanctity could only be found among heterodox Sufis, Christianity/Catholicism ITSELF is the means to sanctity. This is perfectly in accord with Catholic teaching on the Church: while Muslims may achieve union with God and sanctity through mysterious channels of grace, God’s Church subsists in the Catholic Church and is most surely approached there.

What most draws me back to Catholicism is the explicit discussion of the Eucharist in surah “The Banquet” [5]:114-115. Yet, as I see so often in the Qur’an, the glorious theology is then tarnished by complete silliness in the next verse, where Mohammed mistakes the Christian doctrine of the Trinity as being composed of Jesus, Mary, and Allah. Likewise, Mohammed’s life was tarnished by some pretty base sins, such as his insatiable lust for more wives (violating the rules he gave to the rest of the community) and his maltreatment of Fatima (peace be upon her).

Islam has some rays of light, but Christ is the Sun from Whom all light shines. None of the splendor veritatis (splendor of truth) must or even can be rejected in the Catholic Faith, and the beauty you see is already present (though hidden) in its infinite fullness in the Most Blessed Sacrament.

In the Name of God, the Beneficent the Merciful - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

 

[sedonaman]

I’m not going to even address this question
…

Translation: What he said doesn’t support your position.

just like there’s nothing you can do to convince me that Muslims believe in a different God than Christians because they don’t.

Now that’s what you think. So I guess that makes us even.

 

[Aydan]

Translation: What he said doesn’t support your position.

Now that’s what you think. So I guess that makes us even.

sorry you have the wrong translation here. The real one is I believe it support my argument there’s plenty of evidence to show that it does but I’m not going to bother its a waste of time since you won’t believe in any way even if I do because other people had brought fourth the information and you still won’t believe it so why should I waste my time finding information I don’t have enough time to do that when I know it will be futile.

Finally we agree on something
peace

 

[sedonaman]

… there’s plenty of evidence to show that it does …

All the evidence that I have seen, that supports your position, including what people have said here and what the pope said, all boils down to one claim: Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians … because Muslims say they do. What kind of evidence is that? If they worship the same God, who needs Mohammed??? Just think about it; no response necessary.

 

[dolphinlove]

Great, this is all we need now, Catholic vs Catholic.
Pull yr heads in Aydan and Sedonaman!!!
:slapfight:

 

[Aydan]

All the evidence that I have seen, that supports your position, including what people have said here and what the pope said, all boils down to one claim: Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians … because Muslims say they do. What kind of evidence is that? If they worship the same God, who needs Mohammed??? Just think about it; no response necessary.

AY sedonaman I think we will have to wait until Judgment Day and let Jesus settle this once and for all but for now let’s agree to disagree.

 

[Aydan]

We’re not fighting don’t worry this is what you call a spirited discussion among Catholics.

Great, this is all we need now, Catholic vs Catholic.
Pull yr heads in Aydan and Sedonaman!!!
:slapfight:

 

[blortog]

All the evidence that I have seen, that supports your position, including what people have said here and what the pope said, all boils down to one claim: Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians … because Muslims say they do. What kind of evidence is that? If they worship the same God, who needs Mohammed??? Just think about it; no response necessary.

maybe because they believe Mohammed was the last and greatest prophet of god, They might say who needs Jesus? The Jews don’t need either. Christians think Jesus is the son of god because they say he is, how is that any different Muslims saying Mohammed is the last and greatest prophet?

 

[dolphinlove]

We’re not fighting don’t worry this is what you call a spirited discussion among Catholics.

i know i know, i was reading them, just thought i would lighten the mood a bit

 

[Aydan]

i know i know, i was reading them, just thought i would lighten the mood a bit

haha I know.

 

[Cecilianus]

Why not just say that the Muslims worship an incomplete notion of God? This avoids both the indifferentism that you seem to be afraid is implied by saying that they worship the same God that we do and the obvious difficulty of saying that someone worships a “different God” every time he has bad theology (we could extend that ad absurdam to say that the Eastern Orthodox worship a different God than we do because of their Palamite theology, or that the Protestants with their woefully simplistic theology worship a different God than we do). I don’t know God fully and completely, and I probably have errors (maybe even big ones) in my understanding of God - but I still hope that he hears my prayers.

I will spare you guys a bit of effort typing, however, and suggest the problem with my solution - it’s not a notion we worship, but the reality behind the notion. But it’s the best I can come up with.

 

[Selene]

**From sedonaman:**You may not ask because that is O. T., and you know it. Therefore, I am ignoring your question and demand for proof.

I don’t understand this. Even the Old Testament says that God is merciful (See Exodus 34:6, Deut. 4:31, Psalms 37:26, 103:8, 116:5).

Muslims here have said they are slaves of Allah. So, if our God is the same as their Allah, all Christians must be His slaves. Is that what the CCC says?

My Christian brother, when Muslims say that they are slaves to Allah, it only means that they submit themselves to Allah. As Catholics, we must also submit ourselves to God. As a matter of fact, St. Paul told the Ephesians that they must be “slaves to Christ.” What St. Paul means by this is that we must submit ourselves to God’s Will.

Ephesians 6:6 not only when being watched, as curryng favor, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.

Taken from the New American Bible

Ephesians 6:6 not only when you are under their eye, as if you had only to please men, but because you are **slaves of Christ **and wholeheartedly do the will of God.

Taken from the Jerusalem Bible

Both of these are from Catholic Bibles, and St. Paul tells the Ephesians to be “slaves of Christ” in order to do God’s will for we are to submit ourselves to God with our mind, heart, and soul. In this verse, St. Paul tells us what it means to be a “slave of Christ.” Therefore, to be a slave of Christ simply means to follow God’s will just as the Blessed Virgin Mary did when she said “Let thy will be done.” She submitted to God.

Peace be with you,
Selene

 

[sedonaman]

I don’t understand this.

O. T. in this case means “off-topic”. I guess you have to be familiar with planten’s tactics to make this connection.

 

[sedonaman]

…
I will spare you guys a bit of effort typing, however, and suggest the problem with my solution - it’s not a notion we worship, but the reality behind the notion. But it’s the best I can come up with.

Your post is perceptive. The problem you point out leads me to ask why there is a First Commandment.

 

[sedonaman]

maybe because they believe Mohammed was the last and greatest prophet of god, They might say who needs Jesus? The Jews don’t need either. Christians think Jesus is the son of god because they say he is, how is that any different Muslims saying Mohammed is the last and greatest prophet?

The Jews were [and technically still are] expecting the Messiah. The only question then becomes, is Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah? [Be careful here because Muslims will say they believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They have a different understanding of the term.]

This lengthy proof , explains why Jesus fits the Old Testament phrophecy, whereas Mohammed has several problems. First, he contradicts himself in his attempt to prove his self-proclaimed prophethood. Second, if Christianity is true, it easily accounts for Mohammed [the prediction of false prophets]; if Islam is true, Christianity makes no sense at all.

 

[Cecilianus]

Your post is perceptive. The problem you point out leads me to ask why there is a First Commandment.

My understanding of the reason why God gave us the Firs Commandment is that many primitive cultures (including most African tribes today and the Native American tribes before we came along) believe that God is too distant or too lofty to care about our requests and concerns, and so they will pray to lesser spirits or gods instead. This was true about the tribes I mentioned; I don’t know the rationale behind Semitic and Egyptian polytheism - it may have been closer to Hindu polytheism where (according to the synthesis - which may be a later development - between the generally monistic Hindu philosophy and the polytheistic religious practices) the gods are manifestations or aspects of God, but unlike “nirguna Brahman” or God-in-Himself-as-undetermined-Reality they are partial manifestations relative to us (enveloped in the world of maya). In this case, the First Commandment could have been a commandment to worship God in His absolute unity instead of the relative diversity which some people like the Hindus attribute to Him. Then it would be hard for the Muslims to see themselves as breaking this commandment, since, like the Shahadah, it would be a testimony to the Divine Unity.

For us, the First Commandment means to worship Him in the fullness of His absolute truth - that is, in Catholicism. But this presupposes that we know which religion is true.

 

[sedonaman]

My understanding of the reason why God gave us the Firs Commandment is that many primitive cultures (including most African tribes today and the Native American tribes before we came along) believe that God is too distant or too lofty to care about our requests and concerns, and so they will pray to lesser spirits or gods instead. This was true about the tribes I mentioned; I don’t know the rationale behind Semitic and Egyptian polytheism - it may have been closer to Hindu polytheism where (according to the synthesis - which may be a later development - between the generally monistic Hindu philosophy and the polytheistic religious practices) the gods are manifestations or aspects of God, but unlike “nirguna Brahman” or God-in-Himself-as-undetermined-Reality they are partial manifestations relative to us (enveloped in the world of maya). In this case, the First Commandment could have been a commandment to worship God in His absolute unity instead of the relative diversity which some people like the Hindus attribute to Him. Then it would be hard for the Muslims to see themselves as breaking this commandment, since, like the Shahadah, it would be a testimony to the Divine Unity.
…

Besides the speculation, the problem I see with this is that the Church has always taught that those who, through no fault of their own, did not know God and therefore will not be condemned based on that alone.

 

[Selene]

O. T. in this case means “off-topic”. I guess you have to be familiar with planten’s tactics to make this connection.

Hi Sedonaman,

Oh, is that what O.T. stands for? And all this time, I thought it meant Old Testament.

 

[GraceDK]

I became Catholic in 2007 after a year of RCIA. I have struggled to be the best Catholic I could be, I studied theology like crazy, I went to Mass, and I followed God.

I ---- even if I must put aside my beloved Mother Church. I will submit to God in all things, He will lead me where He wills.

I hesitate to ask…thoughts?

please keep it civil

pax vobiscum
Irish

You talk about Catholic, theology, Mass and Mother Church. But you don’t mention Jesus. Does this mean you never met the Living Christ?
If that is the case then I understand why you could betray Him.

You are impressed with Muslim piety. Understandable because it looks impressive from the outside. So does rabbinical Judaism… go to the Western wall… see them dancing, blowing their horns and pray, wear religious garments. Or you can go to Catholic Medjugorje and see 10.000 people on their knees on hard rocks worshipping God in the Eucharist that you want to leave.

The Koran is stillistically impressive to your taste? Shakespeare also is fascinating in his poetry. Is all beauty the same as religious truth? Do you think God would curse the Christians and Jews or say its okay to beat your wife… he does according to the Koran. You say that you think the Koran is beautiful. Why? Because its without sentimentality? Because its new to you? exotic perhaps?

Sorry. You say we should keep it civil. Every week I meet people who have been healed in body, mind and soul by Christ Jesus our Lord. I see their limbs healed, marriages healed, babies saved, I see selfgiving, brotherly sweetness and sharing in wisdom. I have met more people than I can count who have seen Jesus face to face, who heard His voice, had dreams and visions.
One man who was agnostic was even thrown down to the ground by an invisible power that told him: “I am Christ, I exist. I am God”…

You want to speak about beautiful poetry or do you want to speak about lives that have been transformed? I have met good Muslims and I have met Muslims that were hypocrites, who went praying in the mosque on friday and fornicating on saturday or cheating on their wives. More times than I remember I have heard Muslims justify violence and say how it was their right to retaliate or beat their wife or kill a man who drew Muhammad… for the sake of honour or a mere word uttered against them or their prophet. I was recently in a debate with a Muslim where I was called a satanic bastard… words I never heard uttered out of the pen or mouth of any Christian.

Please tell me… if you are convinced of Islam: Where was the Bible corrupted? please give me the criteria where the Bible was currupted too, because none of your brothers here have been willing. They were busy explaining how it was okay for Muhammad to have sex with a 9 year old and how they sympathise with Hamas.
So sorry if your enthusiasm is not shared.

Lastly I want to share with you the testimony of a man who knows both the Arabic Koran and the Bible by heart. He was a terrorist even in the name of the Muslim god, but through wanting to disprove the Bible he became a Christian.
You may say you don’t want to hear this. But how much are you willing to loose if indeed you are wrong when you leave Christ and your sins continue to accumulate on your head?
moodyradio.org/brd_programarchive.aspx?id=11640 (Walid Shoebat- 13. December).

Peace and Truth be with you.
A convert to Catholicism who have many times felt the transformation through confession both litterally physically, spiritually and mentally. I ask you… do not throw away the cenfession of your sins where you meet Christ…
Even if you forget Him, He will never forget you.

 

[GraceDK]

. I myself will agree, many Muslims do a better job at being a good person that Catholics do. .

Then howcome Muslims can live in peace and prosperity in Europe and in the US and practice their faith but the Christians all over the Middle East live under extreme hardship, persecution and threats on their lives???