Catholic Considering Islam

[dzheremi]

You can not compare the church with islam and the prophet,islam doesnt even have an institution like the catholics do.The priesthood is corupted,so is the church…thats what average people think.If i say the imams are corupted that doesnt change anything in islam,or me as a muslim.

Well, thank you for your idea of what average people think. My point in bringing up Imams isn’t to say that there is any authority in Islam comparable to authority in the Church, but to say that in the same way that Islam is bigger than any one Imam, the Church is bigger than any one priest or bishop. Even as we as Catholics recognize the Pope as having authority over the whole Catholic Church by virtue of the Petrine office, we do not say that Catholicism is only in Rome or is only shown by the actions of the Pope.

wow,must be the only family in Bosnia,since all the misionaries say how hard it is to convert bosniaks and serbs to protestantism(catholics do not do missionary work in bosnia).

Hahaha. Could be. She did not say what church they converted to.

There are many new catholics among ex muslim albanians but bosniaks are known to be “alergic” to the cross…as we say-even the worst kafir bosniak cant stand the cross…its because of our past as you may understand

Well, yes, that is understandable. The Catholic Church does not have in Bosnia the large historical presence it has in Albania. I would think that any ex-Muslim Bosniaks would be Orthodox (in fact, we have had such people here in the past). In my personal opinion, this is perfectly good. Granted, I am already a kafir…

 

[dzheremi]

well what can i say,prove that the vatican doesnt recognize Isa as Jesus,since they so often mention the fact that islam respects Jesus and Mary during interreligious meetings,i would find it weird that they believe what you say now

Ask and ye shall receive. Excerpted from a longer document available here (emphases mine):

There are thus similarities with the Christian understanding of Jesus, but there are essential differences. The divinity of Christ is denied, as is also the reality of the Crucifixion. At the end of his life an attempt is made to kill Jesus, but he is delivered and raised up to heaven. There are a number of references to Jesus in the hadith, the Traditions attributed to Muhammad. These show reverence for Jesus and recognise his importance, but they emphasize that he ranks after Muhammad.

There may be a temptation to seize some of the expressions used in the Qur’ an with regard to Jesus (“Word”, “Spirit from God”), and see them as pointers to belief in the divinity of Christ. The whole Quranic context, with its strong denial that Jesus is God, would invalidate such a procedure. When speaking about Jesus with Muslims, it would seem preferable to take as a starting point his message and from here, work back to the person and mystery of Christ.

---

It would seem to me that if the Vatican believed that Isa is Jesus, it would be somewhat nonsensical to suggest ways that we might introduce the person of Christ to Muslims. Indeed, you don’t know Him, and the Church doesn’t say that you do. Even the Arabic name for Jesus is different among Arab Christians than it is among Muslims. Granted, when you use the name Isa we know who it is that you are refering to (that is, we know that you are refering to who you say Jesus is), but that doesn’t mean that we accept the depiction that the name entails as being the true Jesus. It is not. It is Muhammad’s idea of Jesus, just as Nuh is Muhammad’s appropriation of Noah, Dawud is Muhammad’s David, etc. The truth is that Islam has no prophets of its own aside from Muhammad, only these re-imaginings of previous men and women who are remade to fit the Islamic idea of what a prophet should be.

 

[bosnian_muslim]

Well, thank you for your idea of what average people think. My point in bringing up Imams isn’t to say that there is any authority in Islam comparable to authority in the Church, but to say that in the same way that Islam is bigger than any one Imam, the Church is bigger than any one priest or bishop. Even as we as Catholics recognize the Pope as having authority over the whole Catholic Church by virtue of the Petrine office, we do not say that Catholicism is only in Rome or is only shown by the actions of the Pope.

what makes the church-a church? if everything inside the church is so wrong and far away from what Jesus used to teach

Well, yes, that is understandable. The Catholic Church does not have in Bosnia the large historical presence it has in Albania. I would think that any ex-Muslim Bosniaks would be Orthodox (in fact, we have had such people here in the past). In my personal opinion, this is perfectly good. Granted, I am already a kafir… :rolleyes

and albanians are a bit different,they put nationality first and then religion,in Bosnia it is first religion then nationality.Religion forms your identity and nationality here,if you are bosniak “you have to be a muslim”,if you are serb “you have to be orthodox”.There are no religions other then those 3,and there is no missionary between them…only foreigner protestants do it(protestants do missionary among all 3,but mostly among catholics and roma population)

 

[Hadi]

why don’t apply the same thing to Allah ,He is different in the Quran from your tradition

 

[benkim]

Please do not consider leaving the Catholic Church. Please do not consider converting to Islam.

 

[dzheremi]

what makes the church-a church? if everything inside the church is so wrong and far away from what Jesus used to teach

We don’t think that it is. It is reasonable to say that such corruption (and it is out there, I know) is NOT what Jesus taught, but this corruption is against Church teaching. So what makes a Church? All those things that Christ and his apostles and their desciples DID teach, and that we DO observe (even as there is corruption, since the Church is composed of human beings, not all perfect angelic saints). The Eucharist, the other sacraments/mysteries, the shared Christology, doxologies, etc.

Believe me, I don’t believe the Church Militant is perfect. Heck, they let me in. Ew.

and albanians are a bit different,they put nationality first and then religion,in Bosnia it is first religion then nationality.

How is that working out for you?

Religion forms your identity and nationality here,if you are bosniak “you have to be a muslim”,if you are serb “you have to be orthodox”.There are no religions other then those 3,and there is no missionary between them…only foreigner protestants do it(protestants do missionary among all 3,but mostly among catholics and roma population)

Hmm. That is not something I can support. There are Bosniaks who are Orthodox now (you probably know the film director Emir Kusturica…?), and no doubt maybe some Serbs who are Muslim

Yes, we have Protestants everywhere who evangelize Catholics. I don’t like it, but it is maybe better than having a situation where no one has the freedom to convert from one religion to another.

 

[Steven_John]

No problem. Salaam aleikum (pardon my vulgar spelling).

Aleikum Sallum to you and yours, I dont know how to spell either.

In my parish and diocese most people just great hello, i say peace and blessings

 

[bosnian_muslim]

We don’t think that it is. It is reasonable to say that such corruption (and it is out there, I know) is NOT what Jesus taught, but this corruption is against Church teaching. So what makes a Church? All those things that Christ and his apostles and their desciples DID teach, and that we DO observe (even as there is corruption, since the Church is composed of human beings, not all perfect angelic saints). The Eucharist, the other sacraments/mysteries, the shared Christology, doxologies, etc.

Believe me, I don’t believe the Church Militant is perfect. Heck, they let me in. Ew.

but then again,Jesus never talked about a church,specially not about the church as we know it today(the Vatican).Didnt that come much later? with Paul

one muslim scholar who likes to joke said once “we shouldnt call it christ-ianity but paul-ism”,he wanted to say most of your practices and beliefs of today dont come from Jesus but from Paul,and you got to admit that correct?

How is that working out for you?

what? i dont get what you are asking?

Hmm. That is not something I can support. There are Bosniaks who are Orthodox now (you probably know the film director Emir Kusturica…?), and no doubt maybe some Serbs who are Muslim

he calls him self a serb,he said “im a serb and i just returned to what my ancestors used to be”…bosniaks see him as a traitor(not to mention he changed religion because of material interest, he was working in belgrade during the war,and it was not popular to be a muslim or catholic there then),there are more serbian muslims then bosniak orthodox…believe me

Yes, we have Protestants everywhere who evangelize Catholics. I don’t like it, but it is maybe better than having a situation where no one has the freedom to convert from one religion to another. :shrug

i agree

but i can understand the protestants more then the catholics,they are closer to islam in their faith,i just dont like their fundamentalism

 

[planten]

**

This is developing into some kind of a duel of words and beliefs. Let every one work hard in preaching their faith faith peacefully without abuse of others. Every one will get the good results. There are many misunderstandings about Islam. I may mention a few things. Then one can judge who is better. The church people may also try to bring forward their good points about their teachings. I should not make any remark about christianity.
0. Belief in the Creator God is necessary. There is no God except the One God.

1. Islam is universal in that it emphasises belief in all the prophets of God.
2. Also belief in all the angels of God is necessary.
   3… Belief in all the revealed books, Torah, bibleNT and Quran etc is necessary.
3. Quran tells us that God (Allah) sent warners ( His prophets / messengers) to all nations of the world.
4. In Islam, every one is told to believe in God and prophets and do good works.
5. Salvation will be by the Grace of God.
6. Islam does not say that every one who has not recited the Kalimah is a kafir.
7. Islam permits peaceful living, no harm to the old and aged and ladies and children.
8. Islam does not attack any one unless it is attacked with weapons.
9. In present times, there is no Jihad or holy war (Crusade). It is illegal to fight / spread any religion by sword.
10. Islam asserts more importance on spiritual matters. No need of any politics.
11. It is a pure monotheistic (Unitarian) religion, same as the Abrahamic and Jewish beliefs.
12. There is no doubt that the Muslims have forgotten many good lessons of their religion.
13. There is no Jihad with weapons. Killing is not allowed. What the terrorists are doing is not Islam.
14. There is no compulsion in any religion.
15. Those who convert should not be killed. There is no such thing in Islam.
16. Divorce is allowed to ladies and gentlemen under extreme bad conditions.
17. Divorce is the worst of all things that are allowed/ permitted by God (Allah).
18. Re-marriage is permitted. Marriage is essential and the way (Sunnah) of prophet Muhammad.
19. Widows are exhorted (advised) to get married and not to remain single.
20. Only properly declared marriage is allowed for living together. There is not to be any sex except marriage.
21. There is love of God in Islam and love of those whom God loves (say the prophets and saints.)
22. Muslims are advised (ordered) to shun the ways of the Devil.
23. Muslims are told to seek refuge with God (Allah) when reciting the Quran.
24. Quran is a revealed book. There is guidance in it for those who fear God.
25. There is no Pope or special leader for prayers, as it is essential in other religions.
26. Any Muslim can lead the prayers. There are no classes in Islam. All are equal.**

 

[dzheremi]

but then again,Jesus never talked about a church,specially not about the church as we know it today(the Vatican).Didnt that come much later? with Paul

Absolutely not. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus says: “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.” He is certainly not speaking to Paul here!

one muslim scholar who likes to joke said once “we shouldnt call it christ-ianity but paul-ism”,he wanted to say most of your practices and beliefs of today dont come from Jesus but from Paul,and you got to admit that correct?

You and that scholar can dream on. It is not correct, so there is nothing to admit here. We know well enough that Muslims hate Paul, but so what. Paul evangelized the gentiles, was accepted by the other Apostles (the ones that you guys don’t have an irrational hatred of), and all the Apostolic Churches similarly accept him and his teachings. Next ot that, who the heck cares what some Muslim “scholar” says. We don’t call Islam “Mohammedism” (this was once the accepted term used by European Orientalists and others, but it is long obsolete and now it is only used specifically to antagonize, sort of like your “Paulism” example).

what? i dont get what you are asking?

How has defining your nationality by religion worked out in the Balkans? It seems pretty dangerous to me, but my friends from ex-YU are mostly atheists anyway so that probably distorts my picture of how things actually are there now.

he calls him self a serb,he said “im a serb and i just returned to what my ancestors used to be”.

I don’t know about being a Serb, but he is right about his ancestors being Orthodox. So were your ancestors, and everyone else’s in that part of the world before Islam came into the area.

bosniaks see him as a traitor(not to mention he changed religion because of material interest, he was working in belgrade during the war,and it was not popular to be a muslim or catholic there then),

Hmmm…I didn’t think it was ever popular in Belgrade to be Catholic, but anyway…doesn’t this idea that he converted for money contradict his own stated reason for converting that you just wrote about? Why do the Bosniaks claim to know better his own reasons than he does? I have seen this over and over from Muslims…this frankly very ridiculous idea that if anyone actually converts from Islam, they do it for money or some other reason. I don’t believe that for a second. Surely you don’t assume that about people who convert TO Islam from another religion, so where do you get off saying that about people who do the opposite?

there are more serbian muslims then bosniak orthodox…believe me

Maybe so. I am of course biased, so I can’t say it matters much to me. One Bosniak Orthodox for every hundred Muslims is still more Orthodox Christian. Not everything is about numbers, and certainly salvation is not.

but i can understand the protestants more then the catholics,they are closer to islam in their faith,i just dont like their fundamentalism

Wow. No comment on this one! What about Orthodox?

 

[bosnian_muslim]

You and that scholar can dream on. It is not correct, so there is nothing to admit here. We know well enough that Muslims hate Paul, but so what. Paul evangelized the gentiles, was accepted by the other Apostles (the ones that you guys don’t have an irrational hatred of), and all the Apostolic Churches similarly accept him and his teachings.

Who hates Paul? im just saying he changed most of the things Jesus teached,without him christianity would not be the same.A former enemy becomes suddenly your “friend”,but then changes everything you preached? isnt that weird??

Next ot that, who the heck cares what some Muslim “scholar” says. We don’t call Islam “Mohammedism” (this was once the accepted term used by European Orientalists and others, but it is long obsolete and now it is only used specifically to antagonize, sort of like your “Paulism” example).

as i said before,it was out of joke,and his way to say that Jesus has litle to do with the christianity of today

How has defining your nationality by religion worked out in the Balkans? It seems pretty dangerous to me, but my friends from ex-YU are mostly atheists anyway so that probably distorts my picture of how things actually are there now.

yes that probably does

i dont know,it works okey,it has always been like this,the difference is people are not as tolerant as before,but i guess thats natural after a war

I don’t know about being a Serb, but he is right about his ancestors being Orthodox. So were your ancestors, and everyone else’s in that part of the world before Islam came into the area.

thats just serbian propaganda,before ottomans there were no orthodox in bosnia

Bosnia was before the ottomans a catholic kingdom,with a bogomilian majority population,the queen was also bogomil but the popes army forced the royal family to convert.

Anyway,the bogomils were a christian heretic sect,and most bosniaks used to be bogomil,with a small catholic minority

Thats the reason bosniaks today are muslim,they had to choose between catholicism,orthodox or islam,people chose islam,the children of the queen converted to islam(their muslim graves are in Turkey,while the queen is buried in the Vatican).Its all political,the elite converted to get ottoman protection against the pope,and the normal people just followed the elite and it was kinda “islam and bogomilism are similar so what the heck lets convert to islam”

Hmmm…I didn’t think it was ever popular in Belgrade to be Catholic, but anyway…doesn’t this idea that he converted for money contradict his own stated reason for converting that you just wrote about? Why do the Bosniaks claim to know better his own reasons than he does? I have seen this over and over from Muslims…this frankly very ridiculous idea that if anyone actually converts from Islam, they do it for money or some other reason. I don’t believe that for a second. Surely you don’t assume that about people who convert TO Islam from another religion, so where do you get off saying that about people who do the opposite?

Because he uses his conversion as propaganda,he is popular among serbs just because of his conversion.I dont say all muslims that leave islam do it because of money,most dont,but he did

Wow. No comment on this one! What about Orthodox?

i didnt study orthodox but lets say ther are okey,but in the Balkans they are too much nationalist and political…im against religious leaders in politics

but islam respects the orthodox nuns and monks,Mohammed was recognized as a prophet by a monk,and they are mentioned in the Koran as “believers”,and close friends of muslims

 

[dzheremi]

Who hates Paul? im just saying he changed most of the things Jesus teached,without him christianity would not be the same.A former enemy becomes suddenly your “friend”,but then changes everything you preached? isnt that weird??

Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus explains quite well his change of heart (similar things must happen in Islam, so why is it suddenly impossible in the case of Paul?), and since we don’t believe that he changed the teachings of Christ, the rest of your question is mere antagonism. I’m not going to fall for it.

as i said before,it was out of joke,and his way to say that Jesus has litle to do with the christianity of today

Well, hopefully you’ll understand if I fail to see the humor in such a “joke”.

thats just serbian propaganda,before ottomans there were no orthodox in bosnia

Bosnia was before the ottomans a catholic kingdom,with a bogomilian majority population,the queen was also bogomil but the popes army forced the royal family to convert.

Anyway,the bogomils were a christian heretic sect,and most bosniaks used to be bogomil,with a small catholic minority

Thats the reason bosniaks today are muslim,they had to choose between catholicism,orthodox or islam,people chose islam,the children of the queen converted to islam(their muslim graves are in Turkey,while the queen is buried in the Vatican).Its all political,the elite converted to get ottoman protection against the pope,and the normal people just followed the elite and it was kinda “islam and bogomilism are similar so what the heck lets convert to islam”

Far be it for me to tell you the history of your own country, but I had always read (and not just from Serbian sources, so it can’t be classed as “Serb propaganda”) that Orthodoxy came to Bosnia in the 1200s when the Eparchy of Zahumlje and Herzegovina was established by St. Sava. Since the Bosnian province of the Ottoman Empire was not established until 1580, something is off in your timeline.

Because he uses his conversion as propaganda,he is popular among serbs just because of his conversion.I dont say all muslims that leave islam do it because of money,most dont,but he did

Well, okay. I just meant him as one example, anyway.

Mohammed was recognized as a prophet by a monk

Certainly not an Orthodox monk, as “Orthodoxy” as we know it today (that is to say, as something separate from “Catholicism” and “Protestantism”) did not exist during Muhammad’s time, and no monk who recognized or recognizes Muhammad’s prophethood can be any kind of Orthodox or Catholic Christian.

 

[bosnian_muslim]

Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus explains quite well his change of heart (similar things must happen in Islam, so why is it suddenly impossible in the case of Paul?), and since we don’t believe that he changed the teachings of Christ, the rest of your question is mere antagonism. I’m not going to fall for it.

yes,but all of the former enemies of islam were really strict when it was about following the teachings of islam,one litle difference was huge and they made a big deal out of it.To compare them to Paul,who almost changed everything is nonsense

Well, hopefully you’ll understand if I fail to see the humor in such a “joke”.

sure

Far be it for me to tell you the history of your own country, but I had always read (and not just from Serbian sources, so it can’t be classed as “Serb propaganda”) that Orthodoxy came to Bosnia in the 1200s when the Eparchy of Zahumlje and Herzegovina was established by St. Sava. Since the Bosnian province of the Ottoman Empire was not established until 1580, something is off in your timeline.

yes,but that doest mean the people were orthodox,they were bogomil as i said.The queen Katarina was catholic,and she stayed and died as catholic,and is buried in the Vatican.Her children Sigmund and Sofija converted to islam and are buried in Turkey.

orthodox started to come in bigger numbers to bosnia first after the ottomans,they were used as “kmets”(they worked for muslim families) so after a while the population got big enough and they got their own lands

Certainly not an Orthodox monk, as “Orthodoxy” as we know it today (that is to say, as something separate from “Catholicism” and “Protestantism”) did not exist during Muhammad’s time, and no monk who recognized or recognizes Muhammad’s prophethood can be any kind of Orthodox or Catholic Christian.

i dont know,maronite? he had to be something,anyway,not important,

 

[dzheremi]

yes,but all of the former enemies of islam were really strict when it was about following the teachings of islam,one litle difference was huge and they made a big deal out of it.To compare them to Paul,who almost changed everything is nonsense

No sir (or ma’am). The only nonsense here is the claim that Paul “invented” Christianity in the first place.

yes,but that doest mean the people were orthodox,they were bogomil as i said.The queen Katarina was catholic,and she stayed and died as catholic,and is buried in the Vatican.Her children Sigmund and Sofija converted to islam and are buried in Turkey.

So the eparchy was founded by St. Sava and then remained vacant for 300+ years? I find that very, very hard to believe.

i dont know,maronite? he had to be something,anyway,not important,

I think it’s pretty important that you slander the Maronites in this way, but I guess that’s just me.

Also, it seems incredibly unlikely that Muhammad would have or could have ever encountered a Maronite Christian.

 

[bosnian_muslim]

No sir (or ma’am). The only nonsense here is the claim that Paul “invented” Christianity in the first place.

im female,but i dont like beeing called ma’am

i guess we have our own opinions,you think one thing is nonsense,i think an other

So the eparchy was founded by St. Sava and then remained vacant for 300+ years? I find that very, very hard to believe.

st sava in bosnia? read again

all historians claim what i say,its easy to find,you have google

I think it’s pretty important that you slander the Maronites in this way, but I guess that’s just me.

what?

anyway,the monk said to Mohameds uncle “take care of that child since he is the one we are waiting”…later many christians converted when Mohammed got his message from God

 

[AdrianP]

If you read the Bible you’ll understand that Saint Paul was under quidance of God. this is a miracle showing that Saint Paul was sent by God, hundreds of years after his death to interpret the Bible for a great Orthodox Theologian:

Sign from God that St John Chrysostom interpretation of Bible is revealed

full-of-grace-and-truth.blogspot.com/2008/11/divine-inspiration-and-st-john.html

"Icon depicting the Divine inspiration of St. John Chrysostom: St. Proclos his disciple witnessing St. Paul speaking into St. John’s ear. Icon courtesy of www.eikonografos.com used with permission.

"Saint John [Chrysostom] was renowned for his explanations of the Holy Scriptures. He also interpreted the Epistles of Saint Paul, whom he admired greatly. In order to assure himself that the interpretation of the Epistles were correct, he asked God to offer him a sign.
At that same time, a nobleman had risen against Emperor Arcadius. The Emperor, in turn, confiscated all of the man’s possessions and threatened to execute him. The nobleman became desperate and decided to ask for Saint John’s assistance. When he arrived at the Patriarchate, Saint John could not offer him an audience immediately, but instructed him to return that evening. Saint John told the assistant priest, Proclos (who later succeeded Saint John as Patriarch), to show the nobleman to the Saint’s room when he arrived. That evening, the nobleman returned and Proclos went to inform the Patriarch of his arrival. The door to the room was shut, so Proclos looked through the keyhole. He saw Saint John sitting at his desk writing, with a bald-headed man, slightly bent, looking over his shoulder. Seeing this, Proclos returned to the nobleman and told him that the Patriarch was in conference. Proclos returned to the Patriarch’s room several times during the night, but the man was still talking with John. Thus the nobleman waited the entire night to see Saint John. Morning came and the Patriarch prepared to perform the orthros, realizing neither that the nobleman had waited all night for him, nor that Proclos had seen the vision.

That morning the nobleman returned to the Patriarchate since it was of the utmost importance for him to see the Patriach. Proclos went again to inform John of the nobleman’s arrival, but again saw the same man in the Patriarch;s room. John looked extremely interested in what the man was telling him. Proclos was bewildered on how the man was entering, since everyone had to come by him.
The nobleman returned for the fourth time and Proclos assured him that the Patriarch was alone, for he had made certain that no one passed without his knowledge. When Proclos went to the Patriarch’s room, he was shocked to find the same man still there. He returned to the nobleman and told him to go to his home for it was impossible for him to see John.

That third day, the Saint had remembered the nobleman and inquired about him. Proclos told John that the man had come three times, but each time, the Patriarch was busy talking to the same man. John asked Proclos whom he had seen in the room. Proclos told him that it looked as if it were the Apostle Paul, whose icon sat on the Saint’s desk. Joyously, Saint John realized that this was the sign he had asked for from God concerning his interpretations of the Apostle’s epistles. Thus, Saint John wrote The Fourteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul containing the explanation of the letters. This book is one of the greatest works in the writings of the Orthodox Church."

So have 100% faith in St Paul words. Today Orthodox Christians can speak with God, Jesus, St Mary , saints and neither one didn’t become other thing but Orthodox Christian and they didn’t say a bad word about Apostle Paul .

One thing, Does Quran specifies that St Mary is part of Holy Trinity and if yes, why the angel did not know the truth?

 

[AdrianP]

Look here:
New Law is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Old Law and Christianity is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Judaism and is not supposed to follow JUDAISM

amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8YS50Z&cdThread=Tx3SL6ITIY9PDCW&displayType=tagsDetail

Matthew 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

This is from a Protestant web site. I don’t have the capacity to take one by one and analyse this but however, as an information it gives you an idea about differences between OLD LAW and NEW LAW.

Mosaic Covenant New Covenant
Came by Moses John 1:17 Came by Christ Heb. 8:6, 9:15
Law of Moses Acts 13:38-39 Law of Christ Gal. 6:2
Law of sin Rom. 7:5-6 Law of righteousness Rom. 9:30-31
Law of the flesh Rom. 7:5-6 Law of the Spirit Rom. 8:2
Not of faith Gal. 3:2 Law of faith Rom. 3:27
Yoke of bondage Gal. 5:1 Law of liberty Jam. 1:25
Ended by Christ Rom. 10:4 Established by Christ Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Law of death II Cor. 3:7 Law of life Gal. 3:11, 6:8
Entangles Gal. 5:1 Makes free John 8:32, 36
A shadow Col. 2:14-17 The reality Heb. 10:1-18
Fulfilled Mat. 5:17-18 Now in force Heb. 8:6, 10:9
Leaves imperfect Heb. 7:19 Makes perfect Heb. 7:19
Glorious II Cor. 3:7 More glorious II Cor. 3:8-10
Powerless to save Heb. 9:9, 10:4 Saves to uttermost Heb. 7:25
Many sacrifices Heb. 9:12-13 One sacrifice for sin Heb. 10:12
Temporary priest Heb. 7:23 Eternal priest Heb. 7:17
Remembers sins Heb. 10:3 Forgets sins Heb. 8:12, 10:17
Yearly atonement Heb. 10:3 Eternal atonement Heb. 10:14
Priests have sin Heb. 5:1-4 Sinless priest Heb. 7:26
Aaronic priesthood >Heb. 7:11 Melchisedec priesthood Heb. 5:5-10, 7:21
Out of Levi Heb 7:11 Out of Judah Heb. 7:14
Animal sacrifices Heb. 9:12 Human sacrifice Heb. 9:14-28
Earthly tabernacle Heb. 9:2 Heavenly tabernacle Heb. 8:2
Imperfect mediator Gal. 3:19 Sinless mediator I Tim. 2:5
No inheritance Rom. 4:13 Eternal inheritance Heb. 9:15
Instituted upon animal blood Heb. 9:16-22 Instituted upon blood of Christ Mat. 26-28
Works wrath Rom. 4:15 Saves from wrath Rom. 5:9
Non-redeeming Heb. 10:4 Redeems Gal. 3:13, Heb. 9:12-15
Non-pleasing Ps. 40:6 Pleasing to God Heb 10:5-18
Abolishment predicted Is. 51:6 Establishment predicted Heb. 8:7
Circumcision Ex. 12:48 No circumcision Rom. 4:9-12
Made to change Heb. 7:12, Gal. 3:25 Made eternal Heb. 13:20
Faulty Heb. 8:7 Perfect James 1:25
Weak Heb. 7:18 Strong Heb. 7:25
Unprofitable Heb. 7:18 Profitable Heb. 7:19,25
Natural program Heb. 9:10-14 Spiritual program II Cor. 3:6, 18
Daily program Heb. 7:27 Finished program Heb. 10:10-18
Infirm high priests Heb. 5:2, 7:28 Perfect high priest Heb. 7:26
Made priests by law Heb. 7:12, 28 Made priests by an oath Heb. 7:21, 28
No salvation Heb. 10:2-4 Eternal salvation Heb. 5:9, 10:10
Perfected nothing Heb. 7:19 Perfects believers Heb. 7:19, 10:14
Earthly priests Heb. 5:1-4 Heavenly priest Heb. 9:24, 10:12
Repeated inability Heb. 10:11 Glorious success Heb. 10:10-18
Many offerings Heb. 9:7 One offering Heb. 10:10-14
Good promises Dt. 28:1-14 Better promises Heb. 8:6
A good covenant Rom 7:12 A better covenant Heb. 7:22, 8:6
Many high priests Heb. 7:23 One high priest Heb. 7:24-28
Typical tabernacle Heb. 9 True tabernacle Heb. 8:2, 9:11
No mercy Heb. 10:28 Complete mercy Heb. 8:12
Handmade things Heb. 9:1-5, 24 Not handmade Heb. 9:23-24
An old way Heb. 8:13 New and living way Heb. 10:19-20
Unavailing ministers Heb. 7:18 Able ministers II Cor. 3:6
Carnal ministry Heb. 9:9-10 Spiritual ministry II Cor. 3:6
Ministration of condemnation II Cor. 3:9 Ministration of righteousness II Cor. 3:9
Glory covered II Cor. 3:13 Glory uncovered II Cor. 3:18
Brings bondage Gal. 4:24-25 Brings liberty II Cor. 3:17
Cannot justify Gal. 2:16 Does justify Acts 13:38-39
Brings a curse Gal. 3:10 Redeems from the curse Gal. 3:13
Live by works Gal 3:10 Live by faith Gal. 3:11
Cannot give life Gal. 3:21 Does give life John 6:63-68
Exposes sin Gal 3:19 Covers sin Rom. 4:1-8
Under law Rom 6:14-15 Under grace Gal. 3:22-25
Done away II Cor. 3:7-14 Not done away II Cor. 3:11
Abolished II Cor. 3:13 Continues glorious II Cor. 3:11
Ministry of death II Cor. 3:7 Reconciliation ministry II Cor. 5:18
For Israel only Dt. 4:7-8, 5:3 For all men Luke 22:20, Mark 14:24

If you want to be part of NEW LAW you can come to Catholic or ORTHODOX CHURCH I think Judaism is following the OLD LAW. I think that Islam and Protestantism may be in between.

What come from new LAW:
HOLY COMMUNION for eternal life.
John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
BAPTISM and the 7 MYSTERIES.

Orthodox Christianity beside most religious doesn’t stop to this life an through the 7 Mysteries can work in the other life.
At Pentecost Apostles received Holy Spirit and gave it to Bishops and to priests to ordination. Bishops could give Holy Spirit to other priests in ordination. By receiving Holy Spirit through ordination the Priests are TRUE priests and they can FORGIVE SINS, they can give Holy Communion for eternal life and such.
Now Luther not being a bishop could not ordain priests so I don’t know what protestants priests can do, Hopefull they can do everything but I don’t know and there si a RISK being protestant .

I don’t know about any Imam giving Holy Communion for ETERNAL LIFE to his people.

 

[sedonaman]

**

This is developing into some kind of a duel of words and beliefs. Let every one work hard in preaching their faith faith peacefully without abuse of others. Every one will get the good results. There are many misunderstandings about Islam. I may mention a few things. Then one can judge who is better. The church people may also try to bring forward their good points about their teachings. I should not make any remark about christianity.
0. Belief in the Creator God is necessary. There is no God except the One God.

1. Islam is universal in that it emphasises belief in all the prophets of God.
2. Also belief in all the angels of God is necessary.
   3… Belief in all the revealed books, Torah, bibleNT and Quran etc is necessary.
3. Quran tells us that God (Allah) sent warners ( His prophets / messengers) to all nations of the world.
4. In Islam, every one is told to believe in God and prophets and do good works.
5. Salvation will be by the Grace of God.
6. Islam does not say that every one who has not recited the Kalimah is a kafir.
7. Islam permits peaceful living, no harm to the old and aged and ladies and children.
8. Islam does not attack any one unless it is attacked with weapons.
9. In present times, there is no Jihad or holy war (Crusade). It is illegal to fight / spread any religion by sword.
10. Islam asserts more importance on spiritual matters. No need of any politics.
11. It is a pure monotheistic (Unitarian) religion, same as the Abrahamic and Jewish beliefs.
12. There is no doubt that the Muslims have forgotten many good lessons of their religion.
13. There is no Jihad with weapons. Killing is not allowed. What the terrorists are doing is not Islam.
14. There is no compulsion in any religion.
15. Those who convert should not be killed. There is no such thing in Islam.
16. Divorce is allowed to ladies and gentlemen under extreme bad conditions.
17. Divorce is the worst of all things that are allowed/ permitted by God (Allah).
18. Re-marriage is permitted. Marriage is essential and the way (Sunnah) of prophet Muhammad.
19. Widows are exhorted (advised) to get married and not to remain single.
20. Only properly declared marriage is allowed for living together. There is not to be any sex except marriage.
21. There is love of God in Islam and love of those whom God loves (say the prophets and saints.)
22. Muslims are advised (ordered) to shun the ways of the Devil.
23. Muslims are told to seek refuge with God (Allah) when reciting the Quran.
24. Quran is a revealed book. There is guidance in it for those who fear God.
25. There is no Pope or special leader for prayers, as it is essential in other religions.
26. Any Muslim can lead the prayers. There are no classes in Islam. All are equal.**
27. No free speech under Islam.

 

[AdrianP]

Once I wanted to become Protestant but I was bluffed asking which denomination out of around 30 000 has the truth. I did something, I asked God in prayer, Which religion has the easiest salvation path?
An answer came , Orthodox Christianity and this is why Holy Light comes there.

This is what I would suggest to Muslims. Ask God, which religion is true? many muslims did just that and they had revelations with Jesus and dreams with Jesus telling them the truth.
One such movie is here, a Muslim is asked to research Bible and find inadequacies so he can prove to Christians they are wrong. He studied and studied and finally he realized Bible is true. He moved to Christianity. While in moving to Christianity a muslim gets closer to God, HE NEEDS TO GO FARTHERE TO CATHOLIC OR ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY SO HE WILL BE PART OF SEVEn MYSTERIES INCLUDING HOLY COMMUNION FOR ETERNAL LIFE:
youtube.com/watch?v=90ozM2DmkaQ&NR=1

Many muslims convert to Christianity:
youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo&NR=1

This man returns for death and does not speak about Muhamad, Budha, others, guru , Confucius,shaman but speaks about Jesus , God .
youtube.com/watch?v=NPabMyVvC9s

 

[DeusVult09]

I have a feeling that this thread is going disintegrate into a fury of arguments and harsh words but I pray not…

I became Catholic in 2007 after a year of RCIA. I have struggled to be the best Catholic I could be, I studied theology like crazy, I went to Mass, and I followed God.

I have to say that I am impressed with Islam, very very impressed. The Qur’an is like a beautiful ray of light. Muhammad (pbuh) is a wonderful example. The Muslims I know follow Christ’s example better than most Catholics, they are more peaceful and loving than I thought possible. Their devotion to God is absolute. And the evidence for Islam is piling up for me. I know many here have negative opinions about Islam, Muslims, and the Prophet Muhammad and I did too once but now that I have put a lot of time into studying the religion and talking to many people, I have discovered the true Islam. True Islam is not the fanatical religion of the media nor is it a woman-hating, gun-toting, violent mockery of religion as I had been taught. It very well might be the most peaceful faith on earth. God is in Islam, I can’t deny it any longer. Believe me I’ve tried!
I love the Church, but God has led me to Her and God may be leading me to Islam. I am willing to put everything else aside to follow God where He wills, even if I must put aside my beloved Mother Church. I will submit to God in all things, He will lead me where He wills.

I hesitate to ask…thoughts?

please keep it civil

pax vobiscum
Irish

I too have studied Islam a great deal and after my years of study on the subject I came to the conclusion that Islam is false and I hate to be the one to tell you this but god is not in Islam and the Quran is not a beautiful ray of light but a bunch of plagiarized christian fairytales. I cover this in my posts forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=361136 forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=369553

Islam is at its essence a Christian heresy influenced by Gnosticism, Nestorianism and Arianism. This is why Islam denies the crucifixion and Christ’s divinity. This is where Islam comes from and its not god. Even the Koran’s heaven is appropriated from some 4th century syriac hymns how can we trust the word of a deity which as to take his afterlife from Christian hymns?

the evidence for Islam is pure lunacy like the alleged prophecies of Mohammad in the bible are so pathetic like the allegation that Mohammad is the parakletos (as I have studied koine Greek its not hard to shoot that one down) or the “scientific miracles of the koran” which are even more absurd given that the Koran says that mountains prevent earthquakes and Allah holds up birds.

Its a pity that you have been taken in by this deception and that is exactly what Islam is a deception as the Koran itself says Allah is a deceiver answering-islam.org/authors/cornelius/makr.html