Catholic Considering Islam

[franki_rulz]

**
What you have written from the Quran is a good proof against the false allegation about Muslims having a moon god. These christians do not look toward their own Sungod and Moongod (Sun Day and Moon day). They named these days after their Sun god and Moon God, or took them from the pagan Greeks ancestors of the church.**

hahaha!We do not worship Sundays and Mondays…

Pre-islamic arabia had extensive trade links with India. There are facts documented in ancient sanskrit manuscripts that show that the arabs worshipped the sun god and the moon gods like the hindus…one amongs all the gods was allah.
you want more info; go find…no spoon feeding here…you muslims destroyed all evidence of pre-islamic arabic culture… but the hindu manuscripts still exits in India. You cant hide the truth for long…

 

[franki_rulz]

If Allah isnt the moon god, why is the moon so important in the islamic world?you have to break ur ramzan fast and celebrate id after looking at the MOON.

Islamic countries right from pakistan to turkey have a moon sign on their flags.Most mosques have moon signs on top of them…can some muslim throw some light on this?

 

[jakasaki]

ummm…you pretty much don’t know anything. keep living in your fairytale world** while we adults try to have a serious discussion **

wasalam

Ha - ha - ha - this is the funniest thing I’ve read all morning!

Since when is a 15 year old an “adult”?

 

[Contarini]

**The bible came into surface 325 years after teh going away of Jesus when the Roman Emperor accepted christianity. **

That’s obviously false. The New Testament was all written by the mid-second century at the latest (and the seven undisputed letters of Paul were all written by the 60s A.D.). No scholars deny this. You don’t have a leg to stand on in making this claim.
**

The followers of Jesus were in hiding most of the time until they surfaced after 325 years. Nothing could be preserved for such a long time. They preserved it but it could not be reliable…

**

I’m sorry, but that shows your ignorance. The pre-Constantinian Christians were not in hiding all the time and have left quite a few writings–and quite a few references to the New Testament, its authenticity, and its status as Scripture. We have fragments of the writings of Papias from around 100 A.D. talking about the authorship of the Gospels.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

hahaha!We do not worship Sundays and Mondays…

Pre-islamic arabia had extensive trade links with India. There are facts documented in ancient sanskrit manuscripts that show that the arabs worshipped the sun god and the moon gods like the hindus…one amongs all the gods was allah.

But Allah was not the moon god. There is no evidence of this.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

If Allah isnt the moon god, why is the moon so important in the islamic world?you have to break ur ramzan fast and celebrate id after looking at the MOON.

Non sequitur. Even if the worship of the moon had some influence on Islam, it does not follow that *Allah *was the moon god. There is simply no evidence of this.

Furthermore, many ancient cultures followed a lunar calendar. You might as well argue that because we follow a solar calendar therefore we worship the sun, or that Jews worship the sun because they time the beginning and end of the Sabbath by when the sun sets. (Jews also follow a lunar calendar–do they worship the moon as well?)

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

**Deus, please do not enter into such false reports. Otherwise we will ask you about that dirty oil of the dirty money that was rubbed on the head of Jesus by Mary Magd. There are quite a few other things which may be explored.

Did you read that in your bible that mary Magd poured the costly oil of her questionable earnings(?) on the head of Jesus???. It appears that you enjoy discussing such things.**

First of all, the idea that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, or that she was the woman who poured the oil, is not found in Scripture but is a later legend/tradition.

And in the second place, I wouldn’t consider such an act disreputable anyway. What better thing to do with money earned by dishonorable means than to give it away (unless there is restitution that needs to be made)?

Christians believe in this thing called forgiveness of sin. Do you believe in it?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

**

There was a talk that she was the wife of Jesus. I told you that the more you dig into these things, more things will come out. I have complete feeling that Mary Magd was the wife of Jesus **

Feelings really aren’t evidence in matters of history!

and recently there was found some cemetry of Jesus family in which was found the coffin (?)=stone cage for the son of Jesus.
Ben Masada (in this forum) had almost proved that Mary Magd was the beloved wife of Jesus.

What do you mean by “almost” proved? The cemetery is highly unlikely to have had anything to do with Jesus. The argument rests solely on the coincidence of names–but all the names involved were extremely common in that culture.
**

You should not have said what you said about Muhammad. All hadith are not reliable. They are just a bit more reliable than your old bibleNT.

**

No evidence supporting this claim.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

About the word Allah, it does not literally mean God, more specifically the Judeo-Christian God.

Arabic Christians disagree with you. I will listen to them rather than to you.

Moon worship has been practiced in Arabia since 2000 BC. The crescent moon is the most common symbol of this pagan moon worship as far back as 2000 BC.In Mecca, there was a god named Hubal who was Lord of the Kabah.This Hubal was a moon god.

That disproves the claim that Allah is the moon god quite nicely, doesn’t it?

One Muslim apologist confessed that the idol of moon god Hubal was placed upon the roof of the Kaba about 400 years before Muhammad. This may in fact be the origin of why the crescent moon is on top of every minaret at the Kaba today and the central symbol of Islam atop of every mosque throughout the world

That may be so. But that’s Hubal, not Allah.

The moon god was also referred to as “al-ilah”.

Please provide specific evidence showing that the Meccans referred to Hubal in this way, and/or that Hubal and Allah were the same. From what I’ve read they were clearly different.

*Other *Arabs, for whom the moon god was the supreme god, may well have referred to him as “al-ilah.” But we are talking about the Meccans, who worshiped Allah as the supreme deity and Hubal as a lesser but very important deity associated with the moon. Allah was not represented by idols and played the same role in many ways that the supreme God plays in African religions.

This is not a proper name of a single specific god, but a generic reference meaning “the god”.

Again, you are disproving your own argument. It appears from what you are saying that al-ilah or Allah *did *literally mean “God.”

Each local pagan Arab tribe would refer to their own local tribal pagan god as “al-ilah”. “al-ilah” was later shortened to Allah before Muhammad began promoting his new religion in 610 AD. There is evidence that Hubal was referred to as “Allah”.

Please provide this evidence.

When Muhammad came along, he dropped all references to the name “Hubal” but retained the generic “Allah”. Muhammad retained almost all the pagan rituals of the Arabs at the Kaba and redefined them in monotheistic terms. Regardless of the specifics of the facts, it is clear that Islam is derived from paganism that once worshiped a moon-god. Although Islam is today a monotheist religion, its roots are in paganism.

And why is that supposed to be a big deal? I think that this is actually a rather powerful argument *for *Islam. If Islam had appeared *without any *links to Judaism and Christianity, I’d be somewhat more inclined to consider the possibility that it was true (though not enough–Sikhism is a much more appealing and convincing monotheistic religion than Islam, and I am not converting to Sikhism!). It seems to me that the main argument against Islam is that
a) it can be explained as a “heresy” of the Judaeo-Christian tradition; and
b) it is not on the whole an improvement of that tradition (although it has its strong points).

So I can’t see that your “pagan roots” argument is an argument against Islam at all. I’m much more inclined to be friendly to Islam insofar as I see it as a movement from polytheism to monotheism.

Also consider that Muhammad’s father’s name was Abdullah (ullah being a variation of the term Allah). Muslims claim that Allah was revealed by Muhammad, how can it be when the term is used in Arabic names, even his father’s?

If there are Muslims who claim that the name “Allah” was unknown before Muhammad, they are clearly wrong.

Sure the same can be said about Christianity and paganism, but Christianity is open to criticism and had taken on these baseless claims and proven them to be absolute falsehoods strung together by those bent on disproving the historical Jesus.

That’s an over-confident claim. In fact, it’s self-contradictory. Your claim that “Christianity is open to criticism” is belied (insofar as it refers to your version of Christianity) by your adoption in the rest of the sentence of the same defensive, dismissive, triumphalist approach which you rightly criticize in Muslims.

Edwin

 

[FatTire]

Arabic Christians disagree with you. I will listen to them rather than to you.

That disproves the claim that Allah is the moon god quite nicely, doesn’t it?

That may be so. But that’s Hubal, not Allah.

Please provide specific evidence showing that the Meccans referred to Hubal in this way, and/or that Hubal and Allah were the same. From what I’ve read they were clearly different.

*Other *Arabs, for whom the moon god was the supreme god, may well have referred to him as “al-ilah.” But we are talking about the Meccans, who worshiped Allah as the supreme deity and Hubal as a lesser but very important deity associated with the moon. Allah was not represented by idols and played the same role in many ways that the supreme God plays in African religions.

Again, you are disproving your own argument. It appears from what you are saying that al-ilah or Allah *did *literally mean “God.”

Please provide this evidence.

And why is that supposed to be a big deal? I think that this is actually a rather powerful argument *for *Islam. If Islam had appeared *without any *links to Judaism and Christianity, I’d be somewhat more inclined to consider the possibility that it was true (though not enough–Sikhism is a much more appealing and convincing monotheistic religion than Islam, and I am not converting to Sikhism!). It seems to me that the main argument against Islam is that
a) it can be explained as a “heresy” of the Judaeo-Christian tradition; and
b) it is not on the whole an improvement of that tradition (although it has its strong points).

So I can’t see that your “pagan roots” argument is an argument against Islam at all. I’m much more inclined to be friendly to Islam insofar as I see it as a movement from polytheism to monotheism.

If there are Muslims who claim that the name “Allah” was unknown before Muhammad, they are clearly wrong.

That’s an over-confident claim. In fact, it’s self-contradictory. Your claim that “Christianity is open to criticism” is belied (insofar as it refers to your version of Christianity) by your adoption in the rest of the sentence of the same defensive, dismissive, triumphalist approach which you rightly criticize in Muslims.

Edwin

Look Edwin, you are missing the point, the point is that Allah, was a term in reference to a pagan god before Muhammad took it and made it to be just the monotheistic God. As for Arab Christians, go to a Chaldean Rite Church, Chaldeans speak Arabic and are from Iraq and do not use the term Allah, but rather Elohi. The reason for avoiding Allah is that that is a Muslim term for their God, but not the true God of the Judeo-Christian God.

Islam is a false religion based on cutting and pasting select Christian and Jews texts and mixing in Arab paganism. Compare and contrast the Old Testament with the Koran and you will be surprised how much matches up. Of course the Muslim will say that it is divine inspiration and the flawless version of the Bible being presented, when it’s just plain old plagiarism.

 

[Contarini]

Look Edwin, you are missing the point,

No, I’m not. I’m denying it.

the point is that Allah, was a term in reference to a pagan god

Then if you can’t substantiate the “moon god” nonsense, drop it. It’s your own fault if you confuse the issue by making an untenable claim.

Furthermore, it’s irrelevant that “Allah” was a term used by pagans. The question is: what did they use it for? They used it (at least at Mecca) for a supreme deity who was not worshiped using images and in whose name oaths were sworn. Muhammad was using sound missiological method in using the name “Allah” for the one true God while denying that the other gods should be worshiped.

The name “El” used in the OT for God (on several occasions in precisely that form with a suffix such as Shaddai, and far more frequently in the derivative plural “elohim”) was the name of a Canaanite deity. You don’t have a point here at all.

before Muhammad took it and made it to be just the monotheistic God. As for Arab Christians, go to a Chaldean Rite Church, Chaldeans speak Arabic and are from Iraq and do not use the term Allah, but rather Elohi. The reason for avoiding Allah is that that is a Muslim term for their God, but not the true God of the Judeo-Christian God.

Can you give me evidence for this? I mean that “Allah” is avoided when speaking Arabic?

Islam is a false religion based on cutting and pasting select Christian and Jews texts and mixing in Arab paganism. Compare and contrast the Old Testament with the Koran and you will be surprised how much matches up.

No, I won’t. I know this quite well. Islam is a pastiche of Biblical themes. More evidence that they worship the same God. (And yes, I also said in an earlier post that if they were totally different in origin I’d see that as a point in their favor. Both these things are true. They are in fact an imitation of Biblical religion clearly worshiping our God. But if they had come up with such a close imitation *without *actually imitating, I’d have to say that God had done something quite remarkable!)

Edwin

 

[planten]

Non sequitur. Even if the worship of the moon had some influence on Islam, it does not follow that *Allah *was the moon god. There is simply no evidence of this.

Furthermore, many ancient cultures followed a lunar calendar. You might as well argue that because we follow a solar calendar therefore we worship the sun, or that Jews worship the sun because they time the beginning and end of the Sabbath by when the sun sets. (Jews also follow a lunar calendar–do they worship the moon as well?)

Edwin

**It is a very good post by Edwin to put franki on the right tracks. We Muslims do not worship any man or animal or sun or moon. The arabs were pagans before Muhammad came. Muslims are not responsible for what the pagan arabs were doing. Muhammad eradicated the idol worship from whole of Arabia.

Otherwise as Edwin said, we also follow the sun and the moon in our system. All our prayers (5 daily prayers) are organised by the Sun rise and sunst etc. They are not depending on the Moon.

Some festivals are depending on the Moon, as for the Jews. franki had been Bs*itting before in other places about massacre of Himdu in India. that too was all false. I hope some one will take note**.

 

[FatTire]

**
You people are guilty of not standing up to any oppressor or persecutor. You offer the other cheek. That is quite illogical and un-natural.

You know that Muslims have law and their are courts. But you do not have law of your own. Do you have any law?**

We are guilty for not standing up to any oppressor? Please when we stand up to Islam and the Turks when they invaded our Holy places you label the Christians as evil. When we fight back after being attacked you label us evil crusaders. Such a double standard with you people. See your approach, you and your religion are violent in nature, Christ said turn the other cheek, not as a weakling but out of compassionate love, your Muhammad says kill kill kill!

Yes, Muslims have laws and courts based on a flawed violent text called the Koran. Where woman can be abused and killed for not covering up, where if one was to convert to Christianity they will be put to death. The law of Western Civilization, that one that is fair and balanced compared to your Muslim courts is based on Christianity. In our courts, even a Muslim gets a fair trial. Just like your peaceful Muslim brothers who are on trial for terrorist acts:

islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/06/another-american-muslim-convicted-of.html

**You are telling all sorts of lies. If some one does not believe that Jesus died on the Cross, you think that is an insult of great order. Quite funny logic. If some one did not believe that some one did not die, it could be an insult. That is your funny logic. You people (and the Jews) had always been in doubt whether Jesus really died or he just fainted on the cross. Present day doctors are saying that Jesus simply fainted on the Cross.

You are guilty of blasphemy killing Jesus, i.e. according to Deut 18:20 he would be a false prophet. You are taking side with the enemies of Jesus who wanted to kill him on the cross. We Muslims deny that. Death on the Cross is for a cursed person and you are all happy proclaiming Jesus as a cursed person. You do not know the meaning of the curse of God. A cursed person is far away from the mercy (blessing) of God.**

Consider this, Muslims know that Christ’s death and resurrection is the core of Christian belief, yet you claim it not to be true, this is pure ignorance.

What was your peaceful Muslim brother’s response to the cartoons of Muhammad? Islam holds it as blasphemous and sacrilege to create the image of Muhammad, yet if Christians were to respond like Muslims when Islam mocks Christianity, their wouldn’t be a Muslim left on this planet. We would act like mindless psychotic murderers and burn down every mosque and murder innocent woman and children just like the Muslims did as a response to the cartoons.

Take Deut 18:20 and apply it to Muhammad, guess what? The truth comes out, Muhammad is a FALSE PROPHET.

** You should thank God that you came back quickly (two years). But then you should respect other people’s faith.

**

Why should I respect your faith which is more dangerous than atheism? Atheist make it clear they are anti-religion and and anti-God so when they attack Christianity they do not do it under false pretenses. Islam on the other hand is like a conniving snake which claims a common Abrahamic tradition, belief in the same God, respect for Jesus and Mary, but uses all these to deceive people and to undermine Christianity. This is not to mention the worldwide atrocities done by Islam, not in the past but right now as we speak.

**We know that jesus is not God. he was a simple man walking about preaching and calling people to God. he had a God and a Lord. It is all written in your bibleNT. He used to pray to his God. can you not understand the flaw in your theology? Did you ever hear about a God who was praying to some one?

Did you ever hear about a God who could die?? Who could be praying with sweat flowing like blood, trying to beseech his God to avoid the cup??

There are many other flaws in your system. Please think over with cool mind. And do not abuse any one as we do not abuse any of your dear ones. We know they are not really dear to you.

It is we Muslims who really respect and honor Jesus and Mary and all other prophets. You people have got your own made out list of prophets too according to your bad wishes.**

You KNOW? NO! You falsely claim that Jesus is not God. And what New Testament are you reading? The censored Muhammad approved NT? Jesus was and is not an ordinary man, he is God incarnate. If you really read the Gospels, not your Islam approved selected texts, then you’d realize the lie of Islam.

God never died, you deny the resurrection, so what’s the use in talking to you? You Muslims are so hard headed, there is no diplomacy, everything has to be based on the Koran. No wonder you people are stuck in the past and have not joined the world in the year 2009. You do not respect Mary and Jesus like Christians do, are you so absurd to claim that. It’s like saying that Catholics respect Muhammad! We don’t give a sh-- about him. Muhammad is nobody! So stop with your lies that you respect Mary and Jesus.

What flaws do we have? When have we broken a woman’s jaw for showing her bangs? Or murdered someone for leaving Christianity? Or blown up buildings to protest the mocking of Jesus? Last I checked the “peaceful” Islam did all these! Muslims are in such denial and cannot see the tragedy their religion has caused that world. Their are entire watch groups and websites dedicated to monitoring Muslim behavior and action because that is what a threat it has become to the world. Look what happened here in the US, or the UK, or everyday in Israel.

Why would anyone want to consider a religion that embraces the cult of suicide bombers and beheadings? If this is not Islam, then why are the majority of Muslims practicing this way? Why aren’t peaceful Muslims going over to these evil Muslims and telling to stop? Be like Christ and preach love and mercy and turning of the other cheek and Islam, like you proudly claimed, will find it illogical and murder this person.

 

[FatTire]

No, I’m not. I’m denying it.

Then if you can’t substantiate the “moon god” nonsense, drop it. It’s your own fault if you confuse the issue by making an untenable claim.

Furthermore, it’s irrelevant that “Allah” was a term used by pagans. The question is: what did they use it for? They used it (at least at Mecca) for a supreme deity who was not worshiped using images and in whose name oaths were sworn. Muhammad was using sound missiological method in using the name “Allah” for the one true God while denying that the other gods should be worshiped.

The name “El” used in the OT for God (on several occasions in precisely that form with a suffix such as Shaddai, and far more frequently in the derivative plural “elohim”) was the name of a Canaanite deity. You don’t have a point here at all.
Contarini;5673167:

Funny how know your saying regardless if Allah was or wasn’t the moon-god, look at how Muhammad manipulated it in such an amazing way! An con-artist through and through. Take a respected and worshiped deity, claim that this deity revealed to you the Koran and that he is the one true god, it’s far easier to take an established and worshiped god and make him the true god than to persuade them of another non-pagan monotheistic God.

The word El is a generic name for “god” in Northwest Semitic (Hebrew and Ugaritic) and as such it is used in relation to God in the OT. See how it can be used in a generic sense not necessarily lifted from the Canaanite diety.
Contarini;5673167:

Can you give me evidence for this? I mean that “Allah” is avoided when speaking Arabic

?

Even if I gave you a Chaldean Rite Missal, you wouldn’t be able to read the Arabic or Aramaic. Google a Chaldean Mass, most are in North Hollywood or Detroit, don’t know what area you’re in. The actual Christian communities in Iraq are more keen on avoiding this term in worship. Common phrases such as Inshallah are ingrained in their culture, but that’s like an atheist saying Thank God, they don’t really mean or believe it.
Contarini;5673167:

No, I won’t. I know this quite well. Islam is a pastiche of Biblical themes. More evidence that they worship the same God. (And yes, I also said in an earlier post that if they were totally different in origin I’d see that as a point in their favor. Both these things are true. They are in fact an imitation of Biblical religion clearly worshiping our God. But if they had come up with such a close imitation *without *

actually imitating, I’d have to say that God had done something quite remarkable!)

Edwin

You call it pastiche, how does that change anything? So Muhammad reiterated and manipulated these themes to his liking, what is your point? What’s to say they weren’t just lifted? In actuality these themes were taught to Muhammad by a monk, not divinely inspired. By your logic, I can create a new work with selected books from each faith and take a chief pagan god, turn him into the one true God (Muhammad knew his audience well, he took an already established god, got rid of the other ones so as to make the pill of Islam easy to swallow) and then you’d be here on my balls talking about how amazing and true my new religion is.

 

[sedonaman]

**Thanks for pardoning the good lady Mary Magd. She needed to be pardoned of what she had been doing.

There was a talk that she was the wife of Jesus. I told you that the more you dig into these things, more things will come out. I have complete feeling that Mary Magd was the wife of Jesus and recently there was found some cemetry of Jesus family in which was found the coffin (?)=stone cage for the son of Jesus.
Ben Masada (in this forum) had almost proved that Mary Magd was the beloved wife of Jesus.
**

**I believe in Da Vinci Code 100 % because it is the work of a very great genious Leonardo Da Vinci. You may not believe him but I do. So the marriage of Jesus with Mary Magd is a truth and there is no harm in telling the truth.
**

No comment.

**
All hadith are not reliable. **

How can that be? They are some of Islam’s foundational texts.

**
They are just a bit more reliable than your old bibleNT. Your Hadith (bible) is a man made book.Our hadith is also a man made book. These both (BibleNT and Hadith) are not the revealed words of God. So you should not indulge too much in your bible as well as in our hadith.**

If the Bible is unreliable why does Mohammed use it to validate his prophethood?

 

[Contarini]

.

Every historical account of the subject I’ve ever seen indicates that there were a lot of such massacres. Are you denying that any of them took place?

Just because I criticize my fellow Christians when they engage in unfair propagandizing doesn’t mean that I’m going to give you a free pass when you do the same thing!

Edwin

 

[sedonaman]

Have any of them taken place on the Arabian Peninsula? Just asking.

 

[dzheremi]

** inJesus, nobody will believe what you have written.**

I believe it. I can’t imagine any Catholic who wouldn’t.

 

[jakasaki]

Originally Posted by planten

inJesus, nobody will believe what you have written

.

I believe it. I can’t imagine any Catholic who wouldn’t

.

I believe InJesus posts as well and I’m not a Catholic ~

 

[Cecilianus]

You people are guilty of not standing up to any oppressor or persecutor. You offer the other cheek. That is quite illogical and un-natural.

No, it is only love. We never offer the other cheek for anyone else - only ourselves. Love transcends self-serving logic.

You know that Muslims have law and their are courts. But you do not have law of your own. Do you have any law?

What do you think we are, a political system? We do have a spiritual law. It can be summed up in two sentences.

Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

MARK 12:29-31

You are telling all sorts of lies.

It is basic courtesy to assume that your disputant is acting in good faith. If you wish to hold a dialogue, do not accuse your opponent of lying.

If some one does not believe that Jesus died on the Cross, you think that is an insult of great order. Quite funny logic. If some one did not believe that some one did not die, it could be an insult. That is your funny logic. You people (and the Jews) had always been in doubt whether Jesus really died or he just fainted on the cross. Present day doctors are saying that Jesus simply fainted on the Cross.

Logic is either valid or invalid. If invalid, please demonstrate how. There is no such thing as “funny logic”.

Who ever said that Jesus fainted on the Cross? (Since when have we “always been in doubt” about it?) Could anyone with any knowledge of crucifixion seriously claim that? To say that someone could have been flagellated, forced to carry a heavy cross uphill, crucified, and then stabbed through the heart by expert Roman soldiers - and simply faint defies credibility. Read a book called “A Doctor at Calvary”, by Pierre Barbet, I think. By the way, your argument refutes the Muslim position as well, since Muslims believe that Judas was crucified and that Jesus was spared the agonizing death on the cross.

You are guilty of blasphemy killing Jesus, i.e. according to Deut 18:20 he would be a false prophet.

Fallacy of affirming the consequent - one of the few times I get to nab someone for a formal fallacy. Here is your argument:

Major premise: “But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain” (Deut 18:20)
Minor premise: Jesus was slain.
Conclusion “Jesus was a false prophet” does not follow.

You are taking side with the enemies of Jesus who wanted to kill him on the cross.

You think Christians are HAPPY that Our Lord was tortured and killed? We are happy that we are reconciled to God (something Muslims do NOT claim for themselves - they are still in Original Sin), but not that Our Lord had to suffer for us! Stop making outrageous straw men for yourself to knock down.

Death on the Cross is for a cursed person and you are all happy proclaiming Jesus as a cursed person.

I find it rather offensive that the straw men you are attacking all involve blackening the character of the people you are trying to hold a conversation with.

Did you ever hear about a God who was praying to some one?

Yes, to Himself. God the Son praying to God the Father. Three Persons in one God.

Did you ever hear about a God who could die?? Who could be praying with sweat flowing like blood, trying to beseech his God to avoid the cup??

Through His human nature, not through His divine nature.

There are many other flaws in your system. Please think over with cool mind. And do not abuse any one as we do not abuse any of your dear ones. We know they are not really dear to you.

I can’t believe you manage to insult us in the act of telling us to “not abuse you”. Jesus and Mary are very dear to us and your manner of speaking utterly lacks Christian charity. Please desist from insulting us if you wish the same from us.