Catholic Considering Islam

[franki_rulz]

** But franki has gone quiet. And you have practically backed out from this challenge of Hadi. .**

My friend, every heard of different time zones??? I live in India and I suppose you live in another part of the world. We work in different time zones.when your awake,m asleep n vice versa…

 

[franki_rulz]

Hi i dont really want to weigh into this debate but have something to share in gentle love.

.

In the Torah we see Moses (pbuh) having to slaughter many non believers they were more than non believers they were from our own house. Heavy stuff in today’s eye. Not so 400 years ago let alone 1400 years ago.

For those that assert Jesus (pbwh) is G-d, Jesus (pbwh) ordered this killing for the good of us all.

Lets now look at the message of peace and giving of Jesus (pbwh) in the NT, indeed mercy is best.

How well has man done with this message, history shows not too well.

Men and society are still big on justice.

May G-d give us the strength to for go the justice we are allowed and offer mercy so mercy may be given us.

John, dont pick and choose. Please read my statement carefully. I spoke about the new testament. Anyways the Torah was for the jews. Christ came for the whole of mankind.Wasnt Jesus here because people had deviated from the true path of peace and humanity?
For us the new testament superceeds all that was written in the old testament.

 

[Steven_John]

Hi Franki peace and blessings,
i have missed some chunks of this thread

Was it you, and if it was did you find the chapter of the Quran that orders the killing of those who leave Islamic religion?

sorry if i asking you to repeat

 

[Steven_John]

John, dont pick and choose. Please read my statement carefully. I spoke about the new testament. Anyways the Torah was for the jews. Christ came for the whole of mankind.For us the new testament superceeds all that was written in the old testament.

Then i am sorry to you i thought all of the new was in the old and that Jesus (pbwh) was a Jew.

Yes you are right about picking and choosing again sorry

 

[Steven_John]

Hey wait up your a Catholic, you worship Allah

At mass you missing the OT reading and the psalms??? or they just fill some time???

I think, Catholics are very much believers in the OT.

Bless ya

 

[franki_rulz]

Then i am sorry to you i thought all of the new was in the old and that Jesus (pbwh) was a Jew.

Yes you are right about picking and choosing again sorry

Hahaha… Jesus was indeed Jewish. I wont fight with you on that one. Ur statement reminds me of the popular 70’s british sitcom “mind your language” where M. Brown the professor( a protestant) argues with Juan, the spaniard and a christian about christ being a jew or a christian.It is a very hilarious moment (try laying your hands on the sitcom if you can )

anyways, christ didnt follow a lot of rules from the old testament, the sabbath for instance was one of them.

This might be of interest to you.

Luke 16:16 : The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

So u see, the old testament might be binding on the jews but not on us christians.
God bless
Franklin

 

[franki_rulz]

Hey wait up your a Catholic, you worship Allah

Bless ya

Yes I am a catholic… **BUT I DO NOT WORSHIP ** Allah…Jesus Christ.!!!

The Old Testament is valuable to us because of all the wisdom we find there. And it is a window into the character and nature of God. So the Old Testament is very valuable to us, because in it we see a part of the plan of God’s work in the world.

Let me put it this way We are NOT required to follow the Old Testament. Not the Ten Commandments, not the law of Deuteronomy or Leviticus, nothing. We are Christians, New Testament believers, and the Old Testament is NOT a prescription for how we are to live.

Hope this answers your questions.

 

[franki_rulz]

Hi Franki peace and blessings,
i have missed some chunks of this thread

Was it you, and if it was did you find the chapter of the Quran that orders the killing of those who leave Islamic religion?

sorry if i asking you to repeat

Go back a page, and you’ll get my post regarding the killings mentioned in the quran.Now muslims like always will dispute it, however islamic terrorists use the same verses to justify their deeds…

 

[Steven_John]

Go back a page, and you’ll get my post regarding the killings mentioned in the quran.Now muslims like always will dispute it, however islamic terrorists use the same verses to justify their deeds…

Will go look now sorry i am soooo lazy some times.

 

[jen_fla]

**franki will have a hard time finding such thing in the Quran. franki is definitely uninformed.

But what other things franki has written are true. Muslims do not allow any one to leave Islam. They want people of other faiths to come to Islam. But they do not allow any one to leave Islam. If any Muslim denounced (left) Islam, he/she is liable to be killed in the Muslim country.

I do not know why is that. It is perhaps based on some doubtful Hadith. It is no where in the Quran**. So franki has to take the words back very soon or would need to amend the accusative words.

where in the Quran does it say that ?

why don’t you and hadi cut out the run around act! you know @#& well this is in your quran.

and planten shame on you. your only excuse is perhaps you are one of those people that has to write everything down on a notepad because they can’t retain any memories for more than 10 minutes!!! you and i have been over this before from this thread from last year!!! everyone can go there and revisit your avoidance tap dance. back then i was just starting to learn about your faith, but reading and watching how you twist, deny and obfuscate the truth has shown me the light.

why look…here it is in the quran!

004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

i think the link sedonaman gave about another Phd’s perspective is a good read for everyone.

peace to us all.

 

[jen_fla]

**franki will have a hard time finding such thing in the Quran. franki is definitely uninformed.

But what other things franki has written are true. Muslims do not allow any one to leave Islam. They want people of other faiths to come to Islam. But they do not allow any one to leave Islam. If any Muslim denounced (left) Islam, he/she is liable to be killed in the Muslim country.

I do not know why is that. It is perhaps based on some doubtful Hadith.** It is no where in the Quran. So franki has to take the words back very soon or would need to amend the accusative words.

and another thing, planten, cut it out with the “doubtful hadith” routine. what…are you sitting there with a book that says if non-believer exposes violence do the “not-in-quran or we-don’t-believe-in-ahadith” shuffle?

from widely accepted ahadith:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
“…Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed….”

Sahih Muslim, Book 016, Number 4152:
“'Abdullah (b. Mas’ud) reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community.”

 

[Steven_John]

anyways, christ didnt follow a lot of rules from the old testament, the sabbath for instance was one of them.

I think he put the Sabbath in perspective and you will find most religions promote and encourage serious Sabbath time in retreats and such. My Father made it so, so we can be blessed.

This might be of interest to you.

Luke 16:16 : The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

My heart was in a different place and i know that the lessons from scripture are sacred. My bible reads different so i looked around this is from the KJV the wording is different among different bibles. I poked at Youngs as it is supposed to be literal and was going to look for the Greek words meanings.
In youngs it reads

16the law and the prophets [are] till John; since then the reign of God is proclaimed good news, and every one doth press into it;

I noted other versions had are and not were but this time its in brackets, hmm maybe inserted word.

Translations do vary.

well i rarely look at modern translation but this speaks close to my heart.

New living Translation

16 “Until John the Baptist, the law of Moses and the messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is eager to get in.[a] 17 But that doesn’t mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God’s law to be overturned.

Its also very note worthy that some versions have “is being preached”
In the time of grace the law still stands, the time of the tribulation has not yet filled.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Its the curse of the law not the law is a curse.
The curse of the law is that we dont measure up, its justice based to come before our Father.
The giving of Yeshua (pbwh) tears away the Vail so from grace you can now have what our for father Abraham (pbuh) had with Our Father.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth

.

Romans 10:4 (New Living Translation)

4 For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God

.
It also has a foot note saying alt reading as you posted

its not a free pass for believers the law still stands and you dont have to measure up. But you now really want to get as close as you can. If you are spirit filled you will not feal at ease being out side the ten commandments. We now have them as two but the ten are descriptive of the two.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
sweet we have already spoken of this in this post.

So u see, the old testament might be binding on the jews but not on us christians.

So you see the OT in its true essence is the heart of a Christian.
By His will may Our Father bless and guide you and yours as youes submit unto Him

 

[Steven_John]

Yes I am a catholic… **BUT I DO NOT WORSHIP ** Allah…Jesus Christ.!!!

i was just poking you a bit to see if you think of this, because i know the catechism says Catholics and Muslims worship the same G-d.
Catholics believe as the church does. So you accept this you and realise each religion has a different understanding of the same G-d if you are Catholic.

The Old Testament is valuable to us because of all the wisdom we find there. And it is a window into the character and nature of God. So the Old Testament is very valuable to us, because in it we see a part of the plan of God’s work in the world.

Amen Amen Brother

Let me put it this way We are NOT required to follow the Old Testament. Not the Ten Commandments, not the law of Deuteronomy or Leviticus, nothing. We are Christians, New Testament believers, and the Old Testament is NOT a prescription for how we are to live.

Break one of those commandments and you will have broken the two he gave you.
If you love My Brother you will keep his words.
I never offered it was a prescription for how to live

bless ya

 

[KathleenGee]

This was another morning that I couldn’t sleep past 4 am.

I went through the entire thread…but I think the IrishDude left a long time ago.

I hope he got another perspective of Islam on what he would deal with if converting by reading the banned posts of the Muslim woman who came into the discussions early on.

 

[DeusVult09]

sedonaman, we had asked franki to show from the Quran where it says “Kill any one who changes his religion”. But franki has gone quiet. And you have practically backed out from this challenge of Hadi. It means what franki had said was not true.

Your one to talk you have backed out of every challenge I have ever issued you and failed to offer one shred of proof for your anti-catholic arguments which I refute time and time again.

Now about killing people who leave Islam it is not mentioned in the Koran but in the sunned. I know you reject all the ahadith but Muslims scholars consider you “Koran only Muslims” to be misguided and members of a cult. I have seen some say it . many scholar support the view based in the sunned that apostates should be killed and this is why it is practiced in some Muslim countries.

 

[jen_fla]

maybe it is debatable about whether the teaching in the quran is to kill only the non-believers that converted and then turned away, or the nonbeliever that refuses to believe and thus is seen as a threat, but the hadith spells it out clearly that it is for all that leave the faith.

again from quran:
They wish that you reject faith, as they have rejected (faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #89)*

again from ahadith:

*Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
"…Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, “I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed…”

Sahih Muslim, Book 016, Number 4152:
“'Abdullah (b. Mas’ud) reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community.”
*
if islam had there own catechism that clearly explained the meaning and declared officially that they only meant to kill them spiritually it would be one thing, but the danger of the quran is that the teachings are supposedly eternal and meant for the inmams to interpret. not that it’s Scripture, but another fine case against the chaos of sola Scriptura!

i admire the small minority of muslims that have somehow wiggled around the violent teachings, but come on, you have to admit the “extremists” can build a good case of why they do what they do based on these writings.

 

[Jay53]

Just to add this point - it had been shared on a much earlier thread and some of the Muslims were in agreement with this sheikh’s answer:

Why death is the punishment for Apostasy
Alslamualik

This question has bees asked several time from non-Muslims and I want to find an answer: Why When the Muslim convert to another religion(Murtad) he/she should be killed?

Praise be to Allaah.

Your question may be answered by the following points:

(1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.” (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).
(2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.
(3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.
(4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.
(5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?
(6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as “personal freedom,” so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?
We ask Allaah for safety and health. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad .
islamqa.com/en/ref/811/apostasy

Here was Sister Amy’s response to this answer: (emphasis is mine) In all fairness to Sister Amy, she qualifies her response in this answer, however there was never a clear cut answer to what qualifies as waging war against Islam and if I remember correctly, some Muslims think that just speaking against Muhammad or criticizing him qualifies as “waging war against Islam.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=303941&highlight=How+do+moderate+OR+liberal+Muslims+feel+about+leaving+Islam&page=2
May Allah protect him and keep him safe, and reward him for all the work he does.

I didn’t say “no” and I didn’t say “yes,” but I said “Not necessarily.” **The answer from the sheikh (hafidhahullah) is a good answer–one I’ve referred to myself a couple times. **
What’s also important to understand is the role of apostasy in early Islam–that it isn’t just changing one’s faith or creed, but in actuality committing treason and going to war with the Muslims. In such a case, absolutely, the penalty is death.

But there are other scholars you can check with who also point out that sometimes leaving the religion of Islam is not that kind of apostasy, and especially without an Islamic state to commit treason against, the penalty of death doesn’t quite make sense.

I don’t disagree with what the sheikh wrote. But sometimes that ruling does not apply. (Note, for instance, that he is in Saudi Arabia, and not the USA, where circumstances are drastically different.)

 

[franki_rulz]

** I do not know why is that. It is perhaps based on some doubtful Hadith. It is no where in the Quran. So franki has to take the words back very soon or would need to amend the accusative words.**

Somebody was talking about me doing the dissapearing act… planten,where oh, where art thou???

 

[KathleenGee]

I read somewhere that it is the Hadiths and Sura of Medina that you find violent passages, that many Muslims have never read or heard about. Could be the case here.

People to watch out for are the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, and Hamas…Military experts think now that Hezbollah is far worse than Al Qaeda…what gets me is that this fratricide from that part of the world has been going on now for about 6,000 years irregardless of Islam.

 

[jen_fla]

I read somewhere that it is the Hadiths and Sura of Medina that you find violent passages, that many Muslims have never read or heard about. Could be the case here.

People to watch out for are the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, and Hamas…Military experts think now that Hezbollah is far worse than Al Qaeda…what gets me is that this fratricide from that part of the world has been going on now for about 6,000 years irregardless of Islam.

i would agree that there are many that just focus on the 5 pillars and go about the business of taking care of their families, but it has always been that islam’s teachings are derived from quran, hadith and sunnah. their imams are the ones that enforce rules for the society once sharia law has been implemented. the people can’t go against it.