Catholic Converts/Reverts: Why is there so much fruit in Protestantism?

[10gr8kids]

I understand where the OP is coming from. My husband is CofC and I go to church with him and he goes to mass with me. I love the Mass and would not give it up for anything. I love the Catholic Church and her rich history and her moral teachings. I do see though, how there is so much more fellowship at the CofC. Everyone makes an effort to speak to others and get to know them and seem truly concerned about your well-being. When I was a child the parish I went to was more like this, but it was a small town and everyone knew eachother. The parish I go to now is very large and most people seem just ready to get out and go home. Most don’t make any eye contact at all. But maybe I’m part of the problem since I’m sort of an introvert. It is the one advantage I believe protestant churches have over us. Not a matter of salvation though.

 

[steve_b]

A friend and I discuss this topic often. I’m a convert; he’s a revert. We both spent a lot of time in the 80’s in and around the Charismatic/Pentecostal communities.

Here are the kinds of questions that we struggle to answer:

Why is there so much fruit in Protestantism if they do not have the fullness of the gospel?

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, why does the life of the average Catholic parish seem so “dead” when compared with the vibrant joy of so many non-Catholic churches?

If you had to recommend a church to a non-believing friend, would you recommend your own parish, or would you advise them to attend an on-fire non-denominational church where they would be loved, supported, and converted, etc. (secretly hoping to convert them later to Catholicism once they had accepted Jesus)?

(Mods: This is an apologetics topic in that it goes to the heart of whether Catholicism or Protestantism is “of God”, and addresses the lack of “fruit” objection to Catholicism. Thanks.)

Re:
Q # 1 seems to me it depends on how one defines fruit. In Jn 6, most of Jesus followers left Him over the teaching on the Eucharist. Were they passionate about their objection to Jesus teaching? Yes. They thought they could do things their way not His way. Don’t we still see the same arguments today over the same issues, only today with Protestants? Seems to me, one could also argue, what does it benefit someone who reads the gospels and comes up with the wrong conclusions? Shouldn’t “fruit” also be defined as one who is led to the only Church Jesus established and died for, …the Catholic Church?

**Q #2 **“Life” was defined by Jesus in the same Gospel Jn 6. "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you". Since He is the one who judges us all, that’s a powerfully worded conditional statemernt that can’t be fooled with. As humans we live in the seen. Therefore, we base everything in our lives on what we see, what’s tangable and seen. Therefore, What looks to be full of life in human eyes isn’t necessarily full of life in Our Lord’s eyes. Therefore we need to look at what’s alive in HIS terms not our terms. Every parish has the Eucharist

Q #3 There are no churches in Protestantism. Not one. The question imo, one needs to ask, what gives the most glory and love to Our Lord? That’s to be one with Him. How does that happen? In the Eucharist. When Jesus said “if you love me keep my commandments”. Therefore, “. "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you”, and “if you eat my flesh and drink my blood, I will raise you on the last day” sounds to me like a commandment. It sure doesn’t sound like a suggestion. I would say, that the individual who follows all that the Church teaches, and receives the Eucharist worthilly, THEY are truly the ones who love Jesus. THEY are the ones on fire for the Lord. therefore even a parish that “looks” dead in human terms is fully alive in the spirit because of the Eucharist. imo We Catholics have to stop judging life in human terms and by what others “seem” to be doing, and refocus our gaze on how Jesus defines life.

 

[Cordelil]

I understand where the OP is coming from. My husband is CofC and I go to church with him and he goes to mass with me. I love the Mass and would not give it up for anything. I love the Catholic Church and her rich history and her moral teachings. I do see though, how there is so much more fellowship at the CofC. Everyone makes an effort to speak to others and get to know them and seem truly concerned about your well-being. When I was a child the parish I went to was more like this, but it was a small town and everyone knew eachother. The parish I go to now is very large and most people seem just ready to get out and go home. Most don’t make any eye contact at all. But maybe I’m part of the problem since I’m sort of an introvert. It is the one advantage I believe protestant churches have over us. Not a matter of salvation though.

I agree with you. I remember years ago going to a novena where the missionary priest spoke about this his own experience attending a baptist church and their abundance of fellowhship as opposed to his own faith which in his opinion leaves a bit to be desired in that department. Also, once I went to a church with the Cardinal giving the mass who brought up this same point. So, it is something that the clergy recognizes - at least some of them.
As for me at 64, an introvert, it doesn’t matter. Coming to Christianity late in life with Catholicism being my entrance it’s the only church I know. Also, being socially awkward, I, too, may be part of the problem.

 

[TrueLight]

This is a very good question and one that should be posed, as it does really affect the evangelism effort. I agree with the quote above about Church being tailored for families and for older people. If you are young and single in the Catholic Church, as many are nowadays, then you are treated as a sort of problem to be fixed rather than as a resource to be drawn on. Also a lot of parish activities are geared towards the families and older people because they are fixtures. Catholic Churches are “maintenance” rather than “missional” in this regard, as Cardinal Pell in Sydney said.

This is a very sobering thought. As an Evangelical, I was involved in a very vibrant youth ministry. Can this be the key? If you love your youth ministry, you might go away to college, but you will come back, get married and raise your children in the same parish.

I think I’d like to start another thread on this.

 

[ringil]

I love and respect the Orthodox of all stripes- those Churches that grew from Christ Himself.

I give little thought, well positive thought anyways, towards Protestants.

I have especially bad feelings towards the evangelicals who hunt our Catholic faithful- especially in the Hispanic community in the US and in Latin America. They also prowl our faithful in Africa.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I find Protestantism very tempting for the reasons you speak-more vibrant worship, more involvement in the life of Christ. My Protestant Aunt is the most Christian of anybody in our entire family. She goes to Bible studies, is very vocal about her faith, and has started a charity to give toys and necessities to needy children.

When my friends speak of Protestant churches the people involved in them sound a lot more joyous, a lot more faith-filled, and a lot more zealous about Christ than most (not all) Catholics I know.

So what keeps me Catholic? Logic. To paraphrase Blessed Cardinal Newman, to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

I attended an AoG church with a friend of mine, but always after I had attended Mass. They had a very strong emphasis on their music ministry with lots of concerts etc.
I never felt I had worshipped God and the sermons were inspiring but lacked substance.
My mother came back to the Church after many years in a “bible church”, and she would
speak about the “order”, “peace” and “reverence” of the Mass.

I find it so comforting that no matter where I go to Mass, it is Our Lord in the Eucharist
who comes to me despite the faults or weakness of the presiding priest. Never will I take
it for granted. I spent several weeks last year unable to go to Mass or even to receive the
Eucharist except twice. (I was hospitalized in different units of the hospital and when the
EM came they could not find me.)

This past week I have attended more liturgies than I had ever had before because we have
lost three priests in just a few weeks and haven’t had a priest to say Mass daily. Our
parish only has a pastor and one of the priests who died was assisting him though he
had long been retired and in ill health. One of the priests who died was in his mid 50’s!
We now have several seminarians, but went many years without any or only 1 or 2.

When people realize the gift of the Eucharist, whether or not they are outwardly “joyful”
the fruit will be more “converts”, whether they have been in the pews or whether they have
“come home.” I would never send someone to “find Jesus” in another Church because it
might delay this awareness and finding the “full” truth.

 

[franc1sc0]

Somebody said that we should take a trick from the protestants or pentecostals and make the Catholic Mass more like theirs. I don’t agree. Mass is the way Mass is supposed to be. It doesn’t need changing at all. I am a concert and love Mass. To change the mass, would make it cease to be Catholic. Father Mario at our Church has us quiet and very attentive with his Homilies. His homilies go about 45 minutes sometimes and I dont even notice the time at all. We are blessed to have him in our Parish. He started a Wednesday service that is all about singing, praising god and healing. He didnt change anything with Mass but he really wants to have more fellowship amongst the parishioners.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I think Mass should be authentically Catholic and reflect Catholic beliefs and Catholic heritage-no need to get “more Protestant”.

BUT-I do think the Church has a place for non-Protestant style worship, which is very engaging and very inspirational sometimes IMO, OUTSIDE of Mass.

NOT in place of Catholic Mass or spirituality-not even alongside it-but rather a Catholic “transformation” of Protestant worship. I think children and youth especially could really benefit from that.

I’d even enjoy it too as long as it was orthodox.

 

[catholic1seeks]

A friend and I discuss this topic often. I’m a convert; he’s a revert. We both spent a lot of time in the 80’s in and around the Charismatic/Pentecostal communities.

Here are the kinds of questions that we struggle to answer:

Why is there so much fruit in Protestantism if they do not have the fullness of the gospel?

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, why does the life of the average Catholic parish seem so “dead” when compared with the vibrant joy of so many non-Catholic churches?

If you had to recommend a church to a non-believing friend, would you recommend your own parish, or would you advise them to attend an on-fire non-denominational church where they would be loved, supported, and converted, etc. (secretly hoping to convert them later to Catholicism once they had accepted Jesus)?

(Mods: This is an apologetics topic in that it goes to the heart of whether Catholicism or Protestantism is “of God”, and addresses the lack of “fruit” objection to Catholicism. Thanks.)

I think it’s because of three things:

1. God desires all to be saved: There is only one Truth, and yes, Christ established only one Church. But He is not legally bound to only guide this Church. He guides this Church fully, as he promised he would. But he desires all to be saved.
2. God is a realist: Full unity with the Catholic Church is something that is aimed for but will most likely not be reached with every single denomination in the near future. In the mean time, God will “write straight with crooked lines.”
3. Baptism is powerful. The grace of baptism that authentic Christian communities have is powerful–as is all grace that is operative through the many streams that ultimately come from the Church–her other sacraments, the Bible, its moral teachings. But Baptism alone leaves a mark on the soul that attaches the believer to Christ. What if a Christian community does not have true Baptism? God still desires salvation for his people and surely brings them, by his grace, to his Son. “He is not bound by the sacraments.”

 

[Lochias]

I can only speak for the contemporary Methodist service that I used to go to during my brief stint away from the Church:

Clapping, swaying and hooting like a bunch of constipated howler monkeys to a band that is, at best, mediocre and listening to a Methodist preacher admit to his tittering congregation that he actively lied about being a Catholic priest to one poor man who came in with his son, are** NOT **any kind of fruit I ever want to partake of again.

 

[nicolakirwan]

This is a great question and one worthy of deep reflection. As someone who was raised Catholic, was very earnest and involved, but then left to become very involved in Protestantism, I would say that focusing on stylistic differences between worship services doesn’t enlighten because there’s beauty and grace in worship services on both sides, and also plenty of Catholic masses that can seem very difficult to get through. The main differences are not about liturgical versus non-liturgical worship.

There is a lot of spiritual fruit in Protestantism. There are lots and lots of Protestants who truly walk with the Lord and have rich spiritual lives through faith in and obedience to Christ. This is accomplished by the Holy Spirit and the grace of God, as there is only one means by which any of us human beings can know Him and love Him truly.

I love the line in the above post about God writing straight with crooked lines. It’s so true. And I think it’s a mistake for Catholics to take the tack that anything and everything deemed “Catholic” is representative of the “fullness of grace and truth.” There are many ways in which the culture of Catholicism does not serve the Gospel or the conversion of hearts. There are ways in which the canons do not, or may not, do a great job of facilitating spiritual growth of the Body. There are ways in which clergy and religious teach poorly, wrongly, don’t properly catechize, etc. There are practices in a lot of parishes that may well be idolatrous regarding Mary because people haven’t been taught properly and spiritual practice drifts far away from doctrine.

And more than anything, Scott Hahn put it wonderfully on Marcus Grodi’s program–many Catholics have been sacramentalized but not evangelized. Scripture is clear, and the Catechism confirms, that all the sacraments in the world will not do you any good without true repentance and conversion of heart. As someone who grew up in Catholic circles, I saw more people than not readily claiming the label of Catholic and participating in the Sacraments, without any real conversion of heart or perceptible desire to worship God. And unfortunately, this state of affairs was rarely challenged by the teachers, clergy, or religious.

For those reasons, if I had a new convert, though I have “come home” to Catholicism, and have seen many improvements, I probably would send them to a Protestant church–more likely than not non-denominational or Pentecostal. The reason is that, at the end of the day, whomever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. There is a lot of baggage that the Church needs to work through and a lot of people just are not going to attend a Mass, for whatever reason. If I have the opportunity to bring someone into the knowledge of Christ, I don’t want the barrier to be clergy scandals or the difference between latria and dulia. But more than that, people need to be evangelized and discipled, and those things are sadly not emphasized in many Catholic parishes, but they are in (Evangelical) Protestant churches.

 

[sw85]

A friend and I discuss this topic often. I’m a convert; he’s a revert. We both spent a lot of time in the 80’s in and around the Charismatic/Pentecostal communities.

Here are the kinds of questions that we struggle to answer:

Why is there so much fruit in Protestantism if they do not have the fullness of the gospel?

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, why does the life of the average Catholic parish seem so “dead” when compared with the vibrant joy of so many non-Catholic churches?

If you had to recommend a church to a non-believing friend, would you recommend your own parish, or would you advise them to attend an on-fire non-denominational church where they would be loved, supported, and converted, etc. (secretly hoping to convert them later to Catholicism once they had accepted Jesus)?

(Mods: This is an apologetics topic in that it goes to the heart of whether Catholicism or Protestantism is “of God”, and addresses the lack of “fruit” objection to Catholicism. Thanks.)

Part of it I think is simply the loss of Catholic identity. People rightly intuit that tambourines and guitar strumming are incongruous with what happens at Mass, which is, after all, a human sacrifice. If people want catchy music, they’ll go over to Protestants, who have been doing this sort of thing for longer and are frankly a lot better at it.

And part of it is just that Protestantism is easier, not just psychologically but also to live out in your life. It’s not doctrinally demanding. Fornication? Go for it. Contraception? Here’s some for free! Gay divorce? It’s not in Scripture so it must be good! Etc.

Yes, the above is a caricature, but you get my drift.

 

[nicolakirwan]

Part of it I think is simply the loss of Catholic identity. People rightly intuit that tambourines and guitar strumming are incongruous with what happens at Mass, which is, after all, a human sacrifice. If people want catchy music, they’ll go over to Protestants, who have been doing this sort of thing for longer and are frankly a lot better at it.

And part of it is just that Protestantism is easier, not just psychologically but also to live out in your life. It’s not doctrinally demanding. Fornication? Go for it. Contraception? Here’s some for free! Gay divorce? It’s not in Scripture so it must be good! Etc.

Yes, the above is a caricature, but you get my drift.

I don’t think that’s a fair or charitable construal of actual Protestant doctrine on the whole. There are just as many fornicators sitting in Catholic pews as anywhere else.

 

[PJM]

=Randy Carson;9544022]A friend and I discuss this topic often. I’m a convert; he’s a revert. We both spent a lot of time in the 80’s in and around the Charismatic/Pentecostal communities.

Here are the kinds of questions that we struggle to answer:

Why is there so much fruit in Protestantism if they do not have the fullness of the gospel?

The short answer is that there isn’t:blush: it’s a perception not grounded in truth. Consider this:

we all believen in Onkly “one God” right? So why; or how then can there possibily be more than just one set of Faith belefs. Certainly Christ didn’t wait 1,600 years for the “truth” to become known? And yes, I can prove it biblically

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, why does the life of the average Catholic parish seem so “dead” when compared with the vibrant joy of so many non-Catholic churches?

Because Protestantism is about FELLOWSHIP; Catholic’s about Divine Worship through their Gift of the seven Sacraments and the very Presence of Jesus Himself. Worship is Not about us; it’s about us AND God in unity.

If you had to recommend a church to a non-believing friend, would you recommend your own parish, or would you advise them to attend an on-fire non-denominational church where they would be loved, supported, and converted, etc. (secretly hoping to convert them later to Catholicism once they had accepted Jesus)?

The NT alone has more 100+ evidences of Only One God, One set of beliefs and One church. So I’d welcome them into my parish and try to inform them of who, why and what we are: the ONLY church and faith founded and protected by Jesus Himself. I certainly don’t mean to rain on your aprade so to speak. But Truth is a singular reality; and whn asked I am obligated to share it.

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”

Mt. 16: 18-19 "And I [God] say to thee:[singular] That thou art Peter; and upon [you Peter]this rock I [God] will build my church,[singular] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee [you alone] the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

Acts 20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of the LORD” [Singular]

ALL this affirmed in where Christ appoints exclusively His Apostles and throgh them by Mt. 28:19-20 the RCC]

Mt. 10:1-8
Mt. 18:18
Mt.16:15-19
Mt. 28:16-20
Jn.14:16-17
Jn.20:21-22 fuliis the promise]
Jn.17:15-19

(Mods: This is an apologetics topic in that it goes to the heart of whether Catholicism or Protestantism is “of God”, and addresses the lack of “fruit” objection to Catholicism. Thanks.)

There is very much more I could share but space is wisely limiTed. Let me know if I can answer any firther questions for eitHer you or your friend.

God Bless you both and thanks for asking:thumbsup:

pat/PJM

pat/PJM

 

[mlz]

Interesting topic as I was protestant and became a Catholic Convert this past year. I certainly didn’t come in to the Catholic Church because of the parish or the people. If I had to look at that alone I would not have become Catholic. There are too many Catholics not at all serious about their faith sad to say. It was the solid teaching and His Presence that drew me here. Now I’m praying for ways we can help those in the parish grow which is hard but with God all things are possible

mlz

 

[sw85]

I don’t think that’s a fair or charitable construal of actual Protestant doctrine on the whole. There are just as many fornicators sitting in Catholic pews as anywhere else.

Yes, I acknowledged it was a caricature.

And yes, such Catholics do exist, and as a matter of proportion possibly even outnumber their Protestant counterparts. My point is that Catholics who do this are explicitly denying the teachings of their faith, where Protestants aren’t.

 

[nicolakirwan]

Yes, I acknowledged it was a caricature.

And yes, such Catholics do exist, and as a matter of proportion possibly even outnumber their Protestant counterparts. My point is that Catholics who do this are explicitly denying the teachings of their faith, where Protestants aren’t.

Again, I don’t think that’s the case on the whole.

 

[Nita]

I don’t think that’s a fair or charitable construal of actual Protestant doctrine on the whole. There are just as many fornicators sitting in Catholic pews as anywhere else.

That may be true. But, the BIG difference is the Catholic Church does not teach that it is okay, or nothing to be overly concerned about. It teaches that fornication is a** grave **sin, and one must confess and repent to be forgiven. Unless we do that, we die in that sin!
**CCC 2353 **Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

 

[Pitcharan]

A… or would you advise them to attend an on-fire non-denominational church where they would be loved, supported, and converted, etc. (secretly hoping to convert them later to Catholicism once they had accepted Jesus)?..

Not a bad idea. They lay a strong foundation and we can be very good at building on it.