Catholic Courtship Problems

[Tietjen]

In my experience as someone who spent a great deal of time in youth ministry before my marriage, I see the following.

1. The OP’s behavior with his girlfriend is not wrong. (It might be irritating, might not, but it’s not wrong.)
2. The OP has been told by his superiors in the ministry to stop.
3. He should stop. He should stop, not because his behavior is wrong, but because he has been told to. Calling your girlfriend pet names isn’t wrong. Disobedience is.

Feel free to appeal the command, but obey it in the interim.

After all, St. Teresa of Avila was ordered to keep her visions quiet and to flat-out ignore them. She did, though she knew her visions were true and accurate and of God. And Our Lord told her that that obedience of hers to her confessor pleased Him exceedingly.

I can, in fact, understand this argument. HOWEVER, the OP, in his second post, clarified that these people were NOT his superiors but rather his peers.

wowitsjerome:

First, when I mentioned leaders these are my peers in the group and actually I happen to have a little more authority over them.

Yet there are those who continued to critize him up to and including questioning whether or not he and his girlfriend should even be allowed to assist within this ministry!

It appears that the argument over this situation on the grounds of obedience to authority is a non-issue. In that both you and I are in agreement that “the OP’s behavior with his girlfriend is not wrong” perhaps you can see where I’m coming from. Obviously there are those who simply cannot accept that teens may hear the word “sweetheart” and will object regardless, but I find the issue rather silly and stand by my original reply to the OP.

 

[Sillara]

I can, in fact, understand this argument. HOWEVER, the OP, in his second post, clarified that these people were NOT his superiors but rather his peers.

Yet there are those who continued to critize him up to and including questioning whether or not he and his girlfriend should even be allowed to assist within this ministry!

It appears that the argument over this situation on the grounds of obedience to authority is a non-issue. In that both you and I are in agreement that “the OP’s behavior with his girlfriend is not wrong” perhaps you can see where I’m coming from. Obviously there are those who simply cannot accept that teens may hear the word “sweetheart” and will object regardless, but I find the issue rather silly and stand by my original reply to the OP.

Somehow I missed the part where it was not actually his superiors who said this. If he is the one in charge of the ministry, then that changes things.

 

[wowitsjerome]

Somehow I missed the part where it was not actually his superiors who said this. If he is the one in charge of the ministry, then that changes things.

Sillara it may or may not change things. I do however try to remind myself that just because I am the superior does not mean I am not also subject to them. What a beautiful role it is to be a Servant Leader. I recall St. Therese of Lisieux who accepted correction from ANYONE humbly and willingly even when those corrections fell unjustly on her.

Tietjen thank you for the sympathy and even defending me at times.

TheRealJuliane. I truly appreciate your point of view and understand all you really have to go on is my two posts. However a few of your assumptions were quite mistaken. I apologize for not writing my posts well enough to remove the appearance of attitude and will try better next time convey my actual situation and concerns.

My conclusion amidst all this is that although I am going throw a little more caution into the wind I don’t see where I have faulted to the point of needing to do so. I guess you would just have to be around my girlfriend and myself to really see this. We take great care in allowing God’s love to show first which is why I was so curious to see what everyone thought. I was just thrown off by the concerns of others because of the way it was brought up to myself and her.

Here’s some food for thought. Two people can love God individually and have a beautiful relationship with Him but each can be expressed in very different ways. The Churches teaching on vocations is proof of this. In the same sense I think it can be related to couples. Every couple is different and I think we must more than tolerate these differences but celebrate them provided they sincerely seek God’s will. Further I admit pet names can be pretty annoying even to myself when done in excess, but then again isn’t the case for most things? The key I suppose is prudence, moderation, and purity of intention.

I’m sure there will be more posts to follow after this however I understand every couple is different and this will just lead to differences in opinions on how to approach this aspect of a relationship. I look forward to reading further responses.

God Bless you all.

 

[chevalier]

Okay, with the obedience to authority out of the question:

BUT I would like to continue this discussion for the sake of proper behavior in courtship because this is something that I frequently pray about and share about with our youth. Is the situation I found myself in a source of scandal to those around us? Should a couple, for the sake of not making anyone feel uncomfortable, hold back a little bit more in shows of affection (even non physical) for the sake of others?

Maybe not the most Christian answer but I’m not a fan of catering to people who are scandalised by the fact that someone is not scoffing, sulking and generally being grumpy, let alone enjoying his life or relationship with another person. Those who have the “Victorian” sweep it under the carpet attitude need correction because just like children don’t come out of a cabbage and aren’t brought to their parents by a stork (or whatever is appropriate in their culture), so marriages don’t happen out of thin air on the day of the wedding. Nor is a woman and man’s relationship supposed to be one of (self-inflicted) misery and sadness.

This said, people aren’t part of your love story and it shouldn’t be taking time or attention away from your duties towards them or making them feel awkward from observing something which is supposed to be private. There is nothing wrong with occasional slips of “sweetheart” and such in a normal conversation but if you start cooing over each other (or rather if you keep repeating it; once in a while is IMHO a useful reminder to people of all age ranges that, “no woman no cry, no girl no trouble,” aren’t necessary words to live by), then that could legitimately make people uncomfortable.

Especially when it crosses into comparisons or associations with young children, small animals, let alone fluffy little animals, or when you sound like you’re losing control of yourselves, then it gets closer to private and awkward for other people. On the other hand, “darling” is part of literary language, and some people really could get a life.

I’d say tone it down if it makes them feel awkward but don’t allow them to impose the general somber, scoffing mood and glutton-for-punishment attitudes about marriage and relationships. Just because some people marry in haste and repent at leisure doesn’t mean they have a right to make you part of their repentance, directly or through their conditioned families, who only expect what they know. I’m in a situation that far exceeds the typical “child of divorce” scenario and the same is true about most of my family, so I hardly know better, and it has never worked out for me with women (I’ve lost count of failures by now) and yet I’m always happy to see people for whom it works. It helps me stay positive, and sometimes provides patterns, templates and reference. I could obviously instead sulk and complain about you not being a fellow miserable but life’s too short for that sort of stupidity. As it is for being miserable in general.

Can you find an opportunity to get advice from someone who at the same time sees your behaviour in real life and does not have a skewed vision of relationships?

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Here’s some food for thought. Two people can love God individually and have a beautiful relationship with Him but each can be expressed in very different ways. The Churches teaching on vocations is proof of this. In the same sense I think it can be related to couples. Every couple is different and I think we must more than tolerate these differences but celebrate them provided they sincerely seek God’s will. Further I admit pet names can be pretty annoying even to myself when done in excess, but then again isn’t the case for most things? The key I suppose is prudence, moderation, and purity of intention.

I’m sure there will be more posts to follow after this however I understand every couple is different and this will just lead to differences in opinions on how to approach this aspect of a relationship. I look forward to reading further responses.

The thing I have been getting at in my own posts is that this is not just about the relationship of the couple, but also about your relationship with the other people around you. It occurs to me that you have been very focused on the couple-relationship in your posts, that it makes me wonder if in group interactions, you are also still very focused on your couple-relationship. While there is no fault in the couple relationship, being focused on your couple-hood when in group situations is a good way to lose friends. Remember that friendships and family bonds are godly too, and those relationships are also important, and need to be nurtured. Even in professional situations where you are not great friends with the people you are interacting with, a Christian is supposed to show charity, that is love, towards the people he is with. So even when you don’t have a friendship to nurture, it is the Christian thing to do to care about making the people you are with comfortable. Always within reason of course. And I say this, keeping in mind that your original post was not just referring to pet names, but also to other interactions (vocal affirmations), which would be the more likely culprit of any major discomfort that I can picture. But really, it seems to me that these situations are about your other relationships, more than anything else - don’t forget to be mindful of these too.

 

[Baelor]

I am more worried about the possibility that the OP uses the term “courting” among the youth than anything else, especially in a holier-than-thou way.

 

[Bonjovie]

This thread is of great interest to me because I find myself in a somewhat similar situation. Like the OP I am in a serious relationship and we are courting and we both feel that this is our vocation. We also are trying to be chaste and sincere with each other.
There is a small catch, however. Where the OP and his intended are quite on the same page regarding displays of affection, my intended and I are not. I feel (like some who have replied in this thread) that displays of affection should be private, I’m not so much into hugs and holding hands, etc. I feel that i will adjust easier and be more relaxed when we are married, but he doesn’t think so.

He says that my lack of affection affects him negatively and he has to ask himself many questions before he even meets me, like “Can I hug her, or no maybe I should just hold her hand-what if she doesn’t like that, what if she pushes me away, or acts coolly…?”
He says that he may sub-consciously start pulling away, acting semi-formally and not letting his emotions show, and that he doesn’t think that will be good for us.

Is my behaviour abnormal or even harmful? I don’t feel comfortable hugging him in public or holding hand for a long time or calling him endearing names and stuff like that. I know its not sinful, but it feels weird. I don’t want him to change because of me, and i want us to be happy even if it means i have to change.
Can any one help me out? Maybe I should start a new thread for this?

 

[Baelor]

This thread is of great interest to me because I find myself in a somewhat similar situation. Like the OP I am in a serious relationship and we are courting and we both feel that this is our vocation. We also are trying to be chaste and sincere with each other.
There is a small catch, however. Where the OP and his intended are quite on the same page regarding displays of affection, my intended and I are not. I feel (like some who have replied in this thread) that displays of affection should be private, I’m not so much into hugs and holding hands, etc. I feel that i will adjust easier and be more relaxed when we are married, but he doesn’t think so.

He says that my lack of affection affects him negatively and he has to ask himself many questions before he even meets me, like “Can I hug her, or no maybe I should just hold her hand-what if she doesn’t like that, what if she pushes me away, or acts coolly…?”
He says that he may sub-consciously start pulling away, acting semi-formally and not letting his emotions show, and that he doesn’t think that will be good for us.

Is my behaviour abnormal or even harmful? I don’t feel comfortable hugging him in public or holding hand for a long time or calling him endearing names and stuff like that. I know its not sinful, but it feels weird. I don’t want him to change because of me, and i want us to be happy even if it means i have to change.
Can any one help me out? Maybe I should start a new thread for this?

Why would you not want to show affection toward each other?

 

[edwest2]

Hello,

First. Thank you for taking the time to read this post. I don’t want to make it a long winded thesis on defending or excusing myself so let me get straight to the point.

I began, with the help and proper discernment with my spiritual director, the process of honorable courtship with my girlfriend (which honestly, the title seems awkward to relate to courtship). We’ve tried our best in all departments especially piety and chastity. We attend mass regularly and adore at least once a week together. Both of us happen to be adult leaders in a local youth group and have been extremely careful to not show too much PDA if any at all around our youth. I’m sure they’ve seen me give her a glance from across the room, but definitely have reserved any PDA for time around our peers. (I should note that even this is limited)

BUT! Once in a while we do tend to speak very cheesy to each other (calling each other love, babe, sweetheart) around the kids (highschool and middle school). We also have been very vocal in our affirmation of each other as individuals in front of others. This has caused some concern among our leaders because supposedly it makes people feel awkward around us. I assure you that we are MUCH MORE CHEESY over the phone or when no one else is listening. I don’t mind this so much because both her and I are very verbally expressive of our gratitude to God for each other. I love her and frankly plan on marrying her soon. I don’t see a reason to change this, especially considering we’ve toned down any verbal form of affection A LOT when in the presence of our youth.

I feel very strongly about this because 1. This, God Willing, is my vocation. 2. I see the opportunity to provide to our youth an example that Honorable Courtship is very possible 3. Because I don’t want to be a point of scandal for any of the youth.

I’m in a bit of a rut because I don’t see any moral wrong to really change my ways… or to adjust for the sake of the opinions of others. Any (name removed by moderator)ut will be greatly appreciated. Should the cheese stop? should I serve crackers and wine?

You are doing just fine. Trust me. By you providing a good example, you are helping others, and in today’s ‘sex means nothing’ culture, you are taking the proper steps toward developing something called a ‘relationship.’ VERY important.

1. Boy meets some girls. He likes some, but some don’t like him for whatever reason. No big deal.
2. Boy meets a girl he likes and she likes him back. Their faith is important to them and they (A) earn each other’s trust, (B) become friends, and (C) are physically attracted to each other. There is no requirement to call each other honey or sweetie unless you want to.
3. You date, with no sexual intercourse. After a while, you date on a steady basis.
4. You both start thinking you want to take your relationship to the next level, so you meet her parents and she meets yours. It doesn’t matter if she’s being raised only by her mom or that you’re being raised by your aunt.
5. Courtship starts. This is where you have fun, do things together other than dating, like going shopping and other mundane things. You then discuss your hopes and dreams, which may include marriage. Once she’s sure you’re not an ax murderer, drug addict, alcoholic, addicted to gambling, etc., and you see that the way she really is is the way she really is, you sit down with her dad/mom and tell that person you want to marry their daughter. Now, that person was your age once, so they get the hormones, and the beauty and the ‘good times’ you’ve had. But you need a mature adult to talk to you and ask all the other questions: “Where will you live? Transportation? Kids? Are you making enough to support a family?” And so on.
6. Engagement. You are now on your way to planning your lives together. Question Number One: Ask her, “So, what do you expect to happen after we get married?” This is MISSED by way too many people. Depending on her answer, and what you were picturing, this may change things.

My last girlfriend, who I thought came from a working-class background like me, said, "I want money for clothes, jewelry and trips, and a big house by the water [in an expensive part of town]. My little princess wanted to be a little princess (or, at least, a Duchess). I did the math in my head and had to exit, stage left. In 1985 dollars, I would have to bring home 200K a year to make all that happen. (And I knew she’d be really disappointed if I did not deliver, even though she was raised Catholic like me.)

God bless,
Ed

P.S.

People usually feel uncomfortable when you don’t act like them. It makes them feel insecure about their own lifestyle. That is not your problem. And again, we need - need - good role models. No, no one is perfect, but something better than what most call dating and courtship today needs to happen.

 

[Markus2007]

Hello,

First. Thank you for taking the time to read this post. I don’t want to make it a long winded thesis on defending or excusing myself so let me get straight to the point.

I began, with the help and proper discernment with my spiritual director, the process of honorable courtship with my girlfriend (which honestly, the title seems awkward to relate to courtship). We’ve tried our best in all departments especially piety and chastity. We attend mass regularly and adore at least once a week together. Both of us happen to be adult leaders in a local youth group and have been extremely careful to not show too much PDA if any at all around our youth. I’m sure they’ve seen me give her a glance from across the room, but definitely have reserved any PDA for time around our peers. (I should note that even this is limited)

BUT! Once in a while we do tend to speak very cheesy to each other (calling each other love, babe, sweetheart) around the kids (highschool and middle school). We also have been very vocal in our affirmation of each other as individuals in front of others. This has caused some concern among our leaders because supposedly it makes people feel awkward around us. I assure you that we are MUCH MORE CHEESY over the phone or when no one else is listening. I don’t mind this so much because both her and I are very verbally expressive of our gratitude to God for each other. I love her and frankly plan on marrying her soon. I don’t see a reason to change this, especially considering we’ve toned down any verbal form of affection A LOT when in the presence of our youth.

I feel very strongly about this because 1. This, God Willing, is my vocation. 2. I see the opportunity to provide to our youth an example that Honorable Courtship is very possible 3. Because I don’t want to be a point of scandal for any of the youth.

I’m in a bit of a rut because I don’t see any moral wrong to really change my ways… or to adjust for the sake of the opinions of others. Any (name removed by moderator)ut will be greatly appreciated. Should the cheese stop? should I serve crackers and wine?

I don’t think you need to or should put on a masquerade to make people believe certain things about you that aren’t true. At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with the two of you being girlfriend and boyfriend as long as you are doing it God’s way. There is also no need to try to hide this from other people in your life - that would just be dishonest and come close to (or be equal to) lying. And if both of you like to talk and/or behave in a “cheesy” way sometimes, well then that’s just part of your personality and I don’t see how it could be sinful.

In my opinion, if other people feel “awkward” around you, just because you are together, then I would suspect the problem is with them, not you. You won’t be the only couple these people will encounter during their lives, so they should learn how to react appropriately (as in: not freak out). Also, I think it’s great that you’re giving the younger generations a good example of catholic courtship, they will have a hard time finding very many of those in the world (and especially in the media).

 

[wowitsjerome]

This thread is of great interest to me because I find myself in a somewhat similar situation. Like the OP I am in a serious relationship and we are courting and we both feel that this is our vocation. We also are trying to be chaste and sincere with each other.
There is a small catch, however. Where the OP and his intended are quite on the same page regarding displays of affection, my intended and I are not. I feel (like some who have replied in this thread) that displays of affection should be private, I’m not so much into hugs and holding hands, etc. I feel that i will adjust easier and be more relaxed when we are married, but he doesn’t think so.

He says that my lack of affection affects him negatively and he has to ask himself many questions before he even meets me, like “Can I hug her, or no maybe I should just hold her hand-what if she doesn’t like that, what if she pushes me away, or acts coolly…?”
He says that he may sub-consciously start pulling away, acting semi-formally and not letting his emotions show, and that he doesn’t think that will be good for us.

Is my behaviour abnormal or even harmful? I don’t feel comfortable hugging him in public or holding hand for a long time or calling him endearing names and stuff like that. I know its not sinful, but it feels weird. I don’t want him to change because of me, and i want us to be happy even if it means i have to change.
Can any one help me out? Maybe I should start a new thread for this?

I would like to chime in for what this is worth. Affection should be allowed but very regulated in my honest opinion. Think of our Lord who came to us both Physically and Spiritually. It was a balanced love and it echos even in our sacraments where he meets us in a spiritual yet very physical sense. There is not the question of wether or not to show affection, but rather how much and when to do so depending on your situation and state of life.

In one paper which I read it said to save such shows of affections for moments that really matter as to not cheapen it but also to affirm the intended. If you feel uncomfortable now… I would even raise that as a red flag that something may be wrong

Any objections?

 

[wowitsjerome]

I am more worried about the possibility that the OP uses the term “courting” among the youth than anything else, especially in a holier-than-thou way.

Thank you for your thoughts and I hope to correct any hint of such attitudes coming from myself

 

[thewanderer]

This thread is of great interest to me because I find myself in a somewhat similar situation. Like the OP I am in a serious relationship and we are courting and we both feel that this is our vocation. We also are trying to be chaste and sincere with each other.
There is a small catch, however. Where the OP and his intended are quite on the same page regarding displays of affection, my intended and I are not. I feel (like some who have replied in this thread) that displays of affection should be private, I’m not so much into hugs and holding hands, etc. I feel that i will adjust easier and be more relaxed when we are married, but he doesn’t think so.

He says that my lack of affection affects him negatively and he has to ask himself many questions before he even meets me, like “Can I hug her, or no maybe I should just hold her hand-what if she doesn’t like that, what if she pushes me away, or acts coolly…?”
He says that he may sub-consciously start pulling away, acting semi-formally and not letting his emotions show, and that he doesn’t think that will be good for us.

Is my behaviour abnormal or even harmful? I don’t feel comfortable hugging him in public or holding hand for a long time or calling him endearing names and stuff like that. I know its not sinful, but it feels weird. I don’t want him to change because of me, and i want us to be happy even if it means i have to change.
Can any one help me out? Maybe I should start a new thread for this?

I have to say this sounds quite problematic to me. Physcial and verbal signs of affection are extremely important for a relationship and the desire for such affection does not just magically appear after you are married. It ought to grow naturally over the courtship/period of dating so that by the time one thinks about marriage they are emotionally and physically ready for the marital relationship. Accepting and giving such signs of affection help to make your boyfriend/spouse feel loved, and rejecting them can make your boyfriend/spouse feel as though you are rejecting them personally. This is definitely an issue you two will need to work out before marriage because your different expectations will only cause more problems once you are married than they do now.

ETA: This doesn’t mean that you have to have butterflies in your stomach everytime he holds your hand, or even that you as a couple hold hands in public, but what is necessary is that you and your boyfriend find a way to work around your different views on this subject. Your boyfriend is absolutely right, it is catastrophic to a relationship if one person starts to emotionally withdraw from the other. You need to find a way and a level of showing affection that you are both comfortable with, if this is not possible then it might be time to rethink your relationship.

 

[Baelor]

1. Courtship starts. This is where you have fun, do things together other than dating, like going shopping and other mundane things. You then discuss your hopes and dreams, which may include marriage.

This is generally known as dating.

Once she’s sure you’re not an ax murderer, drug addict, alcoholic, addicted to gambling, etc., and you see that the way she really is is the way she really is, you sit down with her dad/mom and tell that person you want to marry their daughter.

This is an optional step…