Catholic Explanation of Repeated Prayers

[iwonder]

piety101:

Praying the Rosary is not something one is expected to do in the Catholic faith. I don’t pray the Rosary myself, because I honestly feel reciting ten Hail Marys to one Our Father is not balanced. Our prayers should be directed to our heavenly Father through Christ. I talked to my priest about it and he told me Rosary recital was an option. I realize the words found in the Rosary have a biblical basis, but there is no command or early church tradition to pray the Hail Mary repetitiously fifty times. I know I will get blasted for this, but I am just being honest.

I pray the “Our Father” daily and in mass. I find support for doing so from scripture and early church tradition. The rosary recital did not come into existence til long after the 7th century and so it was a development within the church. But I do not condemn someone who chooses to recite the Rosary daily. But I can’t help but wonder, if that person is placing more of there devotion to Mary, than to Christ while reciting it? That is the issue with me.

I rather doubt it. The early Carmelite brothers lived in cells or caves rather in Palestine. They were directed to pray unceasingly and this usually took the form of daily recitals of Psalms at particular hours. Those who could not read, though, were directed to say 50 or 100 Our Fathers, instead. The reason was not that more emphasis or devotion was placed on the the First Perosn of the Trinity rather than the Second. It was simply a way for a person within their own abilities to comply with the rule of meditating constantly one the Word of God. The Rosary, in proper use, is the same thing.

 

[piety101]

Did any of the early fathers or the apostles either in scripture or tradition give us instruction to recite the Rosary? That is the issue. As for the Carmelites off in some cave, does this mean the whole Christian world at that time was doing the same thing? I think not.

 

[JimG]

piety101:

Did any of the early fathers or the apostles either in scripture or tradition give us instruction to recite the Rosary? That is the issue. As for the Carmelites off in some cave, does this mean the whole Christian world at that time was doing the same thing? I think not.

That’s just the point. The whole Christian (Catholic) world includes the Church in all places and all centuries, not just in a few decades in first century Palestine. If you’re a Catholic, you have a 2000 year tradition, and one that spans a variety of cultures.

 

[dcdurel]

piety101:

Did any of the early fathers or the apostles either in scripture or tradition give us instruction to recite the Rosary? That is the issue. As for the Carmelites off in some cave, does this mean the whole Christian world at that time was doing the same thing? I think not.

   Jesus said we must listen to the Gospel the Church teaches and preaches.  The Church draws her teachings from scripture and Tradition. And since it is a living Gospel, and a living teaching authority, then there is developement in which God's revelation in scripture and tradition are made clearer and more explicit. Since Jesus appointed Peter as head of the Church on earth and that teaching office was passed down to the Popes, we must accept His authority on ways to pray. And through the ages the Church has taught, through the Popes, that the Rosary is one of the most important and valuable prayers after the mass. The Popes certainly have the authority to judge the

arrangment of prayers and meditations as in the Rosary. The Rosary is simply composed meditation on the truths of the Gospel, and prayers to God, prayers to Mary, in which we honor Mary and ask her intercession. This is all taught by the Church Fathers. Since Jesus taught several times, whatever you do to the least of these you do to Me, then when we honor Mary in prayer, we are honoring Jesus. When we honor Jesus, we are worshipping Him. Thus it is impossible to honor Mary in prayer and NOT honor Jesus. When we honor Mary in prayer, Jesus so identifies with her, that we are honoring Jesus himself. St. Paul teaches this over in over in the teachings of the body of Christ. Whatever we do to the least member of the body, we do to Christ himself. When we honor Christ, we are worshipping Him. Thus, when we pray to Mary, the honor we give her goes to Jesus, and thus worship goes to Jesus, and when we ask her intercession in prayer, the our requests are magnified as they go through her to Jesus.

  The incorrect view, which you espouse is that Jesus said each person is to believe a gospel he makes up, based on his interpretation of scripture and tradition. This is almost Protestantism in which each person makes up his gospel based on scripture alone. 
   Jesus never gave anyone authority to make up his own Gospel whether on scripture alone, or based on scripture and tradition.  Only the teaching authorities HE appointed have authority to determine what the Gospel is, and to determine how to pray, and how to worship. "Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven".

 

[piety101]

dcdurel

            Then by your logic the early fathers and the whole early Catholic church was in error because they failed to recite the Rosary? So the modern church is closer to what is good and proper in who you pray to,  then the entire early church was? Remember it was the early church and a great deal of the early fathers who gave their lives for Christ?  

             It was this same church who gave us the doctrines of the trinity, the bible, baptism and the Eucharist as well. Did they miss something else that the modern church hasn't?  Also you forgot to mention just when the Rosary recital became a normal practice in the church? Was it in 100 AD ?, 200 AD ?, 300 AD ?, 400 AD ?, or even 500 AD ? How is it that these Christians were so dumb as not to discover what is so important to do today? Please explain that dcdurel. :) 

              Do you think these saints have failed to enter heaven because they never recited the Hail Mary prayer 50 times in succession?  I suppose calling on Christ through God was not enough eh? I await your reply and your early church evidence.  :)

 

[TobyLue]

I don’t really think that the rosary is directed mostly to Mary instead of to Jesus. Fifty Hail Mary’s as opposed to 5 Our Fathers. Let’s look at the “Hail Mary”.

“Hail Mary full of grace”. Who said that? It was a messenger of God. Gabriel the Archangel was obeying Gods command. Remember, Gabriel was carrying a message. He didn’t’ say those words out of his own initiative. He was carrying a message from God. So we can say that it was God Himself who was calling Mary “full of grace”.

“The Lord is with Thee”  Again, Gabriel was still carrying God message, saying that with the emphasis on **“THE LORD”** not on Mary.   

“Blessed are thou amongst women, and** blessed is the fruit of thy womb,** **JESUS**”  Here again the focus is on **JESUS**, not Mary. 

“Holy Mary, mother of God, (Jesus is God isn’t He?)

Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.  AMEN.

So it seems like only the last sentence of that prayer is focusing on Mary and purely on a petition from us while the rest of the “Hail Mary” is focusing on Jesus.
So the rosary is more about Jesus than about Mary.

 

[mercygate]

piety101:

Did any of the early fathers or the apostles either in scripture or tradition give us instruction to recite the Rosary? That is the issue. . . .

No, that is not the issue. The issue is whether the Rosary can be a useful devotional practice by which people enter more intimately into the mysteries of the Gospel. For many, it is.

A devotion which you do not find personally congenial at the present moment may have great value, even sanctifying value, for others – even for most. It matters not whether the devotion is ancient or modern, provided that it leads to a deeper apprehension and living out of the Good News.

 

[pangit]

hi, im new, simple catholic, just share my ideas

prayers has many ways – Praising, Thanking, Asking etc…

When we praise God, we used repetitive words like We love youLord, We praise you Lord etc… like our brother in Christ ( the protestants do ) the important is, it must be for Gods greater glory. the book of psalms are prayers filled with repetitive words,
Jesus himself prays wih repetitive words in Mat 26:44.

What the Lord condemns are repetitive prayers thta isnot useful, like praising your self, asking for the distruction of the enemy etc…

 

[Wildgraywolf]

piety101:

By definition it is still repetitious.

If you’re into definitions buy a dictionary, you’ll see that vain and repetition are not synonymous.

piety101:

Actually the practice of the Rosary recital cannot be found in the church before the 7th century.

Correct. So what?

piety101:

It is an optional practice that neither the apostles nor the early church practiced.

Correct. Meaning what? Should we dispose of all devotions that the early church did not practice? The apostles and the early church didn’t have a bible either; much less a new testament to work with. So no bible devotionals either?

piety101:

Their devotion was chiefly to Christ in God. This fact cannot be denied.

Correct, however, you are confusing devotion to Christ with a devotional and missing the whole “why” part completely - not a surprise really. A devotional should lead you to greater devotion of Christ.

So is your problem with vain prayer or repetitious prayer? One does not necessarily follow the other. A vain prayer is still vain even if said once or a thousand times and a repetious prayer is not necessarily a vain prayer.

The repetitious prayers of the rosary also serve to “mute” outside distractions so that one may focus on the mysteries at hand - pun intended. Is a repetious activity vain if it serves a purpose?

 

[piety101]

To Wildgreywolf

                    If the early church, for 600 years, did not feel an urgent need to be so fully devoted to Mary as Catholics are today, then it is not necessary at all to pray to Mary, but rely solely in Christ. That is the so what of your question.

                    You mention vain repetitious prayer. But you fail to understand our Lord's meaning. When our Lord said this to the group, he was telling these people, look! don't use vain repetitious prayers like the pagans, for your father in heaven already knows what you want. If one says over and over, and over, and over the same words, then whatever their religion is, they are praying words of repetition.  This is what our Lord does NOT want us to do in prayer. Not to pray like the heathen.

                     You say saying the Hail Mary fifty times relieves our ears of outside distractions. Well, so does saying Hallie Christina to have the same effect, repeated over and over. But our Lord does not want to use repetitious prayer. It is all in vane. :)

 

[JimG]

Hmm, so should the Church go 2000 years without repeating a prayer? Should a person go a lifetime never repeating a prayer? Or a day?

Liturgical prayer usually has a set form. The Jewish liturgy, the psalms, and the Catholic liturgy including the liturgy of the hours, has a set, though variable, form.

Must we go through life always trying to think up new was to say to God what he already knows?

 

[Wildgraywolf]

piety101:

Did any of the early fathers or the apostles either in scripture or tradition give us instruction to recite the Rosary?

No of course they didn’t why should they? It’s a devotional and there are new devotionals popping up everyday.

As you pointed out in a previous post; devotions like the rosary are optional. In other words participating in a devotion/devotional is done of free will not because one is instructed to do so. Which is more meaningfull to God; the one who “chooses to do” or one “who does as instructed”? Which one of these could be done in vain?

 

[johnq]

Luke 13:

18] He said therefore, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it?
19] It is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his garden; and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches.”

Our knowledge of God is meant to be like a mustard seed. It grows. What we know now started as a mustard seed with the early Church and Church fathers. Nothing has changed; it just develops more deeply as we understand it better.

Anyway, if we wanted to follow the early Church exactly, we need to have Mass in a Jewish temple. Either that or in somebody’s house because there was no Churches as the members were underground.

 

[piety101]

Johnq
That would be true if we were engulfed by Jews on every street corner. But were not and after the 1st century and for 500 years after that the Catholic church was solely converted gentiles. So your point proves nothing. But WHO they were solely devoted to in their life and IN THEIR PRAYERS does prove a lot. They certainly were aware of Mary, but no record is shown where devotion to her was as great as it is shown to her today. The Rosary recital was non existent and praying directly to Mary alone was also non existent for the church as a whole. :)

 

[urquhart]

piety101:

To Wildgreywolf

                    If one says over and over, and over, and over the same words, then whatever their religion is, they are praying words of repetition.  This is what our Lord does NOT want us to do in prayer. Not to pray like the heathen.

So, would you say Jesus is praying like the heathen here?

Matthew 26:39: And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.”
40: And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour?
41: Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
42: Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.”
43: And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy.
44: So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words.

 

[mercygate]

piety101:

To Wildgreywolf

If the early church, for 600 years, did not feel an urgent need to be so fully devoted to Mary as Catholics are today, then it is not necessary at all to pray to Mary, but rely solely in Christ. That is the so what of your question.

You mention vain repetitious prayer. But you fail to understand our Lord’s meaning. When our Lord said this to the group, he was telling these people, look! don’t use vain repetitious prayers like the pagans, for your father in heaven already knows what you want. If one says over and over, and over, and over the same words, then whatever their religion is, they are praying words of repetition. This is what our Lord does NOT want us to do in prayer. Not to pray like the heathen.

You say saying the Hail Mary fifty times relieves our ears of outside distractions. Well, so does saying Hallie Christina to have the same effect, repeated over and over. But our Lord does not want to use repetitious prayer. It is all in vane.

Prayer that his repetitious is not necessarily vain.

Luke 18:2-8:

"In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man; and there was a widow in that city who “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man; and there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, Vindicate me against my adversary.' For a while he refused; but afterward he said to himself, Though I neither fear God nor regard man, yet because this widow bothers me, I will vindicate her, or she will wear me out by her continual coming.’” And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily.”

 

[piety101]

urughart
No, you are implying that. Jesus was simply praying to his father his needs as a human being. Nothing wrong with that. But he didn't keep saying over and over and over and over in a constant chain of the same words, all at one sitting, what he wanted from his father. That would be vane repetition. :)

 

[piety101]

mercygate.
Nothing about repetitious prayer in what you quoted at all. All that is said that the woman kept seeking the Lord for her needs as we do in our life. That is far different then saying the same set of words over and over and over and over again all in one sitting. :)

 

[Fizendell]

Forgive me if anyone has already mentioned this, I quit reading the thread around post #25 and scrolled to the bottom to see that Piety101 is still making his/her point.

I see your point - your point at the beginning was that you don’t pray the rosary because it is not a devotion that works for you. That should be fine and I hope no one is jumping on you about it, since I was beginning to sense there was some defending going on.

I just wanted to add my two cents worth about the rosary since it is a devotion I enjoy daily.

Yes - the rosary is 50 Hail Mary’s interspersed with Our Father’s, Glory Be’s and the Fatima Prayer, along with the Apostle’s Creed.

The point of the rosary is to allow your voice to help focus your mind. The Catechism says there are three kinds of prayer (–is anyone catching the Sunday night Father Corapi on the Catechism - he’s talking about prayer (old recorded speaking engagements, obviously) right now and I’m getting a lot out of it!-) Three kinds: vocal, contemplative and meditative (I hope those are right, they’re from memory, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong!) and so in the rosary, you are doing both vocal and contemplative.

The repetition of the Hail Mary prayers allows you to contemplate each mystery for approximately the same amount of time each. Interesting, huh?

Anyway - no, you won’t find the use of the rosary in the early Church history since it didn’t start until maybe the 1300’s. Commonly attributed to St. Dominic, but the parts might go back farther.

You can look up the history if interested, but the most interesting thing I know is this:

Originally, it was that the religious would pray all 150 Psalms each day. Well, the regular laity, usually unable to read and memorize that, who wanted to do something similar, began praying 150 Our Father’s every day. Cool, huh?

Well, the evolution is interesting, including that if someone tried to find out what mysteries were being pondered, there were over 200 and it took a pope in the 16th century to bring a bit of order to the rosary.

So, anyway - being a devotion, it isn’t required by anyone - and there’s no use praying a devotion if your heart isn’t in it. But I just wanted to toss in here that there’s more to these things than vain repetition and all that.

=)
Kat

 

[Wildgraywolf]

piety101:

If the early church, for 600 years, did not feel an urgent need to be so fully devoted to Mary as Catholics are today

Urgent need! Who said that?

As a general rule devotions do not come from the institutional church, but rather from the laity and religious. The institutional church does “check them out” for errors. As a devotional meditation the rosary leads only to a deeper devotion to Christ - that is it’s purpose and the only possible outcome.

piety101:

,then it is not necessary at all to pray to Mary

Strictly speaking it is only necessary to pray to God the Father. Not to Jesus or anyone else. Reacall when the apostles asked Jesus to teach them how to pray and Jesus said “you should pray like this: Our Father…”. Strange then that there are a number of references to intercessory prayer throghout the bible, huh?

piety101:

, but rely solely in Christ.

Amen. If it weren’t for Christ we wouldn’t have a rosary today.

piety101:

You mention vain repetitious prayer. But you fail to understand our Lord’s meaning. When our Lord said this to the group, he was telling these people, look! don’t use vain repetitious prayers like the pagans, for your father in heaven already knows what you want. If one says over and over, and over, and over the same words, then whatever their religion is, they are praying words of repetition. This is what our Lord does NOT want us to do in prayer. Not to pray like the heathen.

Actually, I understand perfectly… Our Lord does not want any empty, meaningless prayers - THAT’S what he means. Because something is repeated does not make it vain. God isn’t interested in numbers, but rather sincerity – in sprit and in truth. Ah, so you must believe God is a prayer counter… How many repetitious prayers does God consider vain and repetitious? Surely you must know.

The rosary is primarily intended as a devotional meditation. One ponders such mysteries as the sufferings of Christ… You’re comparing apples and oranges.

If you’ve ever spent much time reading your bible you would find that God seems to prefer meaningful repetition of prayer. Since you’re not too familiar with scripture I’ll save you the time and provide one for you… Luke 18:1-8.

So it seems Jesus wants us to keep asking and asking the Father, over and over again for the same thing; why is that? If the Father already knows what our needs are why do we have to keep asking, repeatedly?

piety101:

You say saying the Hail Mary fifty times relieves our ears of outside distractions. Well, so does saying Hallie Christina to have the same effect, repeated over and over.

That was a cheap shot, but not unexpected. The two are very different in meaning and goal and you know that. The prayers are secondary to the meditation, but necessary and therefore they are not said in vain. The rosary is not a “talking to God prayer” or an intercessory prayer it is a prayerful meditation.

piety101:

But our Lord does not want to use repetitious prayer. It is all in vane.

Agreed, God doesn’t want, desire or like meaningless, empty prayers said once or repeated a million times. Repetition does not mean vain. Get a dictionary and look up “vain” and “repetition”. God doesn’t judge on mere appearances, but rather looks into the heart of man, surely we cannot judge righteously based on how things appear, can we? Indeed, is judging another’s sincerity of prayer within our prevue?

I notice you only object to the “Hail Mary” as being repetitious but not the “Our Father”; that prayer is also repeated many times during the rosary.

Honestly, I believe the only thing you object to is the person in whom God chose to bring salvation into the world. You can take that up with Him… Ask Him repeatedly for an answer… Meanwhile we’ll continue to worship and adore the Lord our God and honor Mary the Virgin Mother of God, the Apostles, the Martyrs and all those who have done God’s will throughout the ages. Repeatedly at every mass.