Catholic heresies?

[E.E.N.S]

Sorry, I couldn’t find the post where I was challenged to list some Catholic heresies. Since the challenge took a rather aggressive tone I thought I’d let someone else do the arguing. Here is a link. If anything on there is indeed a heresy, then I haven’t lost like I was told I would. If nothing on there is a heresy, I still haven’t lost because I learned something new and because no Catholic is going to admit if something is heretical anyways.

So here is the link. Some of you are smarter than I. I’d rather you prove these are not heresies rather than me trying to prove that some of them are since this is a Catholic board and you should defend your beliefs.

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm

Originally Posted by hoosierdaddy
If nothing on there is a heresy, I still haven’t lost because I learned something new and because no Catholic is going to admit if something is heretical anyways.

Fidelis>>If we’re all such a blind and dishonest pack of curs, then why ask us anything at all?

Did I say that? You WON’T admit if something is heretical because a) you aren’t allowed to and b) you wouldn’t want to admit a Protestant beat you.

However, it was Mike that aggressively challenged me to name one “heresy” and then said I would lose the debate and I wouldn’t like it. I just answered the call.

More disrespect. Nothing happens to Catholic dissenters…today…in this country. You don’t know much about Ireland do you?

Funny you should say that. Because I woke up this morning and prayed to God that I would seek the truth, I would share the truth I know, and that I would not be concerned about winning or losing arguments. But this Catholic today seemed to be. I’m still waiting for him to “defeat” me. Great…you only care about what is true too? Sola Scriptura…

Wow. I truly did not expect this kind of disrespect from you.

P.S. You’re not allowed to say some doctrine in the Catholic Church is heretical. You just aren’t. You Catholics yourself admitted that you can’t. You don’t have the authority to.

Here’s a heresy for ya. Purgatory. That is a gross affront to Jesus Christ and His death. In fact, its another gospel. Read Galatians. I’d yawn right back at you but I’m too angry to. Do me a favour and don’t waste your time responding. Because I won’t answer.

Indeed, the Church has fought heresies all down the centuries, with many of its members paying with their blood to defend many of the doctrines you take for granted. Just so you know.

Oh of course it’s fought heresies at the same time ignoring its own! How many Protestants paid for their defence of the truth with THEIR blood? Huh? I take no doctrine for granted. My Saviour died for me so that I could have eternal life. Your teaching against this is rank heresy! My Protestant brethren died so that I could read the Bible in my own language! Just so you know…and you did say you like to know the truth. You’ve been told it. Do with it what you will. End of discussion.

Yes, I am when people are civil with me.
Read your Bible and it will teach you how to be civil. While you’re at it, learn what the gospel is.

It’s not a competition. Bad form!

Which seems more in “bad form”? It seemed to me he was only stating a fact that Hoosier seems to dilusionally ignore. In all his posts/threads.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Re: blessings

Traditionally, Christians have blessed pretty much everything they are going to eat, drink, live in, or otherwise use. Jewish devotional life is also pretty big on praying over and blessing stuff, so we probably got it from them. This is all part of acknowledging that God gave us everything and created everything. Most folks still say grace, and goodbye is “God be with you”. But there used to be a lot more of this.

The early Christians boasted that they constantly made the Sign of the Cross over themselves and everything they were doing, reminding themselves over and over of their baptism’s seal and the means of their salvation.

Later, the common greeting for Irish people after the coming of Christianity was “Dia dhuit”, God bless you; and the common way to come up to somebody’s house was a similar blessing on everyone in the house. They took it very seriously. In early medieval Irish law, you could get fined if you came walking along, saw somebody working on something, and didn’t say, “God bless you”!

Not to bless things and people constantly… that was considered heathen and creepy, not to mention ungrateful to God. And to be honest, I think they had a point back in the day.

So yeah, if you’re going to bless the seed, the sowers, the crops in the field, the rain, the sun, the reapers, the harvest, the bread and beer you make from the harvest, the barn, the animals that eat the feed, and everything else – as well as saying grace before and after meals – it’s not surprising that you’d bless the church bells before you hung 'em up to serve God for the next few hundred years.

Btw, if you want to find out interesting stuff about church bells (in England, anyway), Dorothy L. Sayers’ mystery novel The Nine Tailors is a great book. It’s part of a series, but pretty much standalone; it follows a small town Anglican parish through a whole year, and the local bellringers are important to the plot.

Hi,

Thanks for the inro.

 

[Mommyof02green]

OP, I hope that you aren’t given the site you posted much credit… In my opinion it’s just anti-catholic tacts.

If you want to learn what the Catholic Church really teaches then you should check out these sites:

www.catholic.com
biblechristiansociety.com
ewtn.com
vatican.va/phome_en.htm
usccb.org/catechism/text/
amm.org/chss/chss.htm (my favorite)
or salvationhistory.com/

Just to name a few.

I don’t know about you, but when I want to learn about someones faith then I go to THEIR web-pages.

Example if I want to learn something about Lutherans then I go to: elca.org/ or lcms.org/

If I want to learn something about Adventist then I go to: adventist.org/

If I want to learn about JW then I go to: watchtower.org/

I think you get the picture.

My Mamma told me if I want to learn something then I should get it from the horses mouth; Gossip and heresy is not a good thing!

God Bless

 

[MariaG]

I have to say I am disappointed as a whole in the Catholic posters in this thread. If it does not apply to you, then ignore this.

But hoosierdaddy is able to respond very cordially. Here is a simple Christian, whose only knowledge about the Catholic church comes from sites like Boettner.

He admits when he is wrong and gets angry when called a heretic just as we do.

He came with a simple request. Show why Boettner is wrong. Also very easy to do, if time consuming since Boettners understanding of real Catholic teachings are nonexistent. It is very easy, as the “hosts”, to suggest splitting off threads to discuss the more complicated issues. If you find it too onerous to do so, leave without posting. Many other comments here are counterproductive and have left this thread in shambles.

hoosierdaddy is a very uniformed about the true teachings of the Catholic Church, but is willing to listen. Yet in two pages of posts and only a handful of posts actually addressing the list from Boettner. Do you really wish him to go away thinking no one can show how those claims are so wrong?

The Catholic “residents” should do more than this thread has provided, as a whole.

But I suppose I’ll be bashed too for standing up for our separated brethren who through no fault of his own, does not even accurately know WHAT the Catholic Church teaches.

He is asking. Teach him what our church believes and dispel the lies Satan has spread about our church instead of all these snipings at who was nasty first.

He has asked. What are you going to do about his request? Keep fighting about who was nasty first or provide him with what the Catholic Church acutally teaches?

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

OP, I hope that you aren’t given the site you posted much credit… In my opinion it’s just anti-catholic tacts.

If you want to learn what the Catholic Church really teaches then you should check out these sites:

www.catholic.com
biblechristiansociety.com
ewtn.com
vatican.va/phome_en.htm
usccb.org/catechism/text/
amm.org/chss/chss.htm (my favorite)
or salvationhistory.com/

Just to name a few.

I don’t know about you, but when I want to learn about someones faith then I go to THEIR web-pages.

Example if I want to learn something about Lutherans then I go to: elca.org/ or lcms.org/

If I want to learn something about Adventist then I go to: adventist.org/

If I want to learn about JW then I go to: watchtower.org/

I think you get the picture.

My Mamma told me if I want to learn something then I should get it from the horses mouth; Gossip and heresy is not a good thing!

God Bless

Nice sites:thumbsup:

 

[LSK]

I still haven’t lost because I learned something new and because no Catholic is going to admit if something is heretical anyways.

So here is the link. Some of you are smarter than I. I’d rather you prove these are not heresies rather than me trying to prove that some of them are since this is a Catholic board and you should defend your beliefs.

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm

First of all, welcome to the boards…and I am so glad you have a positive, friendly attitude.
You are correct that no Catholic will ever admit anything taught and practiced by the Holy Mother Church is a heresy - we can’t. If we did we would be breaking the 8th Commandment and because we are rooted firmly in Holy Scripture we cannot admit to something that is not true.

However, the fact that this is a Catholic Site means that if you have questions you need to come to US with specifics…it is not up to US to prove to YOU that the Holy Mother Church is the True Church. We know the Truth. And in the words of a great philosopher, the Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it…just like a lie is still a lie even if EVERYONE believes it.

May I suggest, if you are truly interested in learning the Truth, that you begin by asking specific questions. Remember, you are coming to US for answers. We are more that willing to help you learn.

God Bless you.

 

[mikeledes]

I have to say I am disappointed as a whole in the Catholic posters in this thread. If it does not apply to you, then ignore this.

But hoosierdaddy is able to respond very cordially. Here is a simple Christian, whose only knowledge about the Catholic church comes from sites like Boettner.

He admits when he is wrong and gets angry when called a heretic just as we do.

He came with a simple request. Show why Boettner is wrong. Also very easy to do, if time consuming since Boettners understanding of real Catholic teachings are nonexistent. It is very easy, as the “hosts”, to suggest splitting off threads to discuss the more complicated issues. If you find it too onerous to do so, leave without posting. Many other comments here are counterproductive and have left this thread in shambles.

hoosierdaddy is a very uniformed about the true teachings of the Catholic Church, but is willing to listen. Yet in two pages of posts and only a handful of posts actually addressing the list from Boettner. Do you really wish him to go away thinking no one can show how those claims are so wrong?

The Catholic “residents” should do more than this thread has provided, as a whole.

But I suppose I’ll be bashed too for standing up for our separated brethren who through no fault of his own, does not even accurately know WHAT the Catholic Church teaches.

He is asking. Teach him what our church believes and dispel the lies Satan has spread about our church instead of all these snipings at who was nasty first.

He has asked. What are you going to do about his request? Keep fighting about who was nasty first or provide him with what the Catholic Church acutally teaches?

Respectfully,
Maria

Perhaps you haven’t read his posts in threads like the one in Sola Scriptura. He can admit when he is wrong and he presents compelling arguments. But he can also make offensive comments. He is welcome here and I’m sure many Catholics are willing to respond to him. Everyone should refrain from obnoxious comments.

God Bless,
michael

 

[Melchior]

I am going to answer these “heresies” one by one from my Protestant who leans Catholic perspective. Just for fun.

Heresy Date

*OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible, the most ancient are the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ. 310 *

Nowhere is in the Bible does it say one cannot pray for someone, dead or alive. Nowhere in the Bible is the sign of the Cross forbidden or even mentioned. So if scripture does not condemn or address them that cannot be “contrary to the Bible”

*Wax Candles introduced in church. about 320 *

Are there some other kinds of candles that should be used? I guess every Protestant Chruch that uses electric lights is committing heresy since electric light use is not in the Bible either.

*Veneration of angels and dead saints. 375 *

Protestants never venerate or revere famous religous leaders, dead or alive or thier pastors, right? No cult of personality in Evangelicalism!

The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted. 394

Well we wouldn’t want to worship God too much now would we?

*The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, “Mother of God”, as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus 431 *

The Catholic church condemns the worship of Mary too. And perhaps some Catholics do cross that line on occasion. But that is their sin not the Catholic churches.

Jesus is God, Mary is His mother. Therefore Mary is the Mother of God the Son. If she was not the mother of God thgen Jesus was not God. Mother of God is a Christological statement not a mariological one.

*Priests began to dress differently from the laity 500 *

And Protestant Pastors began dressing in business suits in the 20th century.

As I understand it airline pilots dress differently than passengers. Scandalous!

*The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great 593 *

So what? It’s a non-essential issue since all who go to Purgatory (if it exists) are saved. What’s the big deal if they make a stop on the way to Heaven?

The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ

Imagine that! Latin speakers imposing their language on their people! What next English in England?

*The Word of God forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (I Cor. 14:9). 600 *

Add one part Gin and 1/2 part Vermouth in a mixer filled with ice. Pour into maritni glass with 3 or 4 olives in it. Then take one passage of scripture and twist it completely out of context and what you have is a martini with the above quote.

That verse is about the supernatural gift of tongues, btw.

*The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church
(Matt. 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18) 600
*

Another non-essential issue. Praying to saints to ask them for prayer is not a Gospel issue. It does not make faith in Christ unreachable. At worst someone is sincerely mistaken and not heard.

The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas

That’s just dumb.

This he did to spite Bishop Ciriacus of Constantinople, who had justly excommunicated him for his having caused the assassination of his predecessor emperor Mauritius. Gregory 1, then bishop of Rome, refused the title, but his successor, Boniface III, first assumed title “pope.”

I have no idea, but given the record of this list so far I am inclined to doubt these are all the facts.

Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Lk. 22:24-26; Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18; I Cor. 3:11).

Except when He did appoint Him.

*Note:-- Nor is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that there is no real 1st century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome." 610 *

Quote a Pope to disprove something about Peter? That makes lots of sense.

The kissing of the Pope’s feet

Kissing megachurch pastor’s…

*It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19:10; 22:9). 709 *

It was also a pagan custom to eat dinner. I guess we should stop.

*When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matt. 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38). 750 *

I didn’t know they had Hobbits in France?

But this is one of the few valid points on the list.

continued…

 

[Melchior]

Worship of the cross, images and relics was authorized

Uh… no.

This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.

Admittedly, I alway found Irene’s actions innaporpriate, especially a woman who was not empress nor clergy calling a council. This does not mean though, that good cannot come from evil. I do think Irene was a shady character.

Such practice is called simply IDOLATRY in the Bible, and is severely condemned. (Read Ex. 20:4; 3:17; Deut. 27:15; Psalm 115). 788

It is only idolatry if you are worshipping an object. When the proponents of this list stop saluting the Flag Catholics should stop venerating images. To be sure I think people should be careful not to cross the line from veneration to worship as that would be idolatry. The Incarnation changes some things.

*Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized 850 *

What’s the concern here? High blood pressure?

*The veneration of St. Joseph began 890 *

It took 890 years to realize what a great guy he was?

*The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV 965 *

If we exclude young woman from Baptism based on their names it would be unjust. I think anyone named Bell should not be discriminatd against in such a manner.

Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV

So do Protestants never claim someone is in Heaven?

*Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Rom. 1:7; I Col. 1:2). 995 *

True enough. But word meaning often change. Ask man in a bar 50 years ago if he was he was not likely to punch you out.

Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed

And this is harmful to the soul how?

Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 700.

Well it’s good they were concerned with fishermen. Jesus seemed fond of them too.

The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.

It is referred to as a sacrifice very early on by the fathers.

Attendance was obligatory since day one based on the Commandment to Keep the Sabbath Holy. Is there somethinfg heretical about obeying the Ten Commandments?

*The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and is not to be repeated, but only commemorated in the Lord’s Supper. (Read Heb. 7:27; 9:26-28; 10:10-14). *

And? Catholics believe this.

The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII

Yeah so?

*Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read I Tim. 3:2,5, and 12; Matt. 8:14-15). 1079 *

Uh no. He was indicsating how a married man should behave if he wants to be a Bishop. Not that only married men could Bishops.

The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans

Wow! Hindus prayed the Our Father and Hail Mary???

*The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ. (Matt. 6:5-13). 1090 *

Vain repition not counting prayers was condemned.

*The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion 1184 *

I am glad the Scottish Reformers realized this too.

The sale of Indulgences, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin.

First half is a sad, isolated truth. The second is speculation of motives at best.

*Christianity, as taught in the Bible, condemns such a traffic and it was the protest against this traffic that brought on the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. 1190 *

That’s true.

The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215

Well we would not want to explain doctrines with any precision now would we?

More later…

 

[Della]

della:

Indeed, the Church has fought heresies all down the centuries, with many of its members paying with their blood to defend many of the doctrines you take for granted. Just so you know.

hoosierdaddy Oh of course it’s fought heresies at the same time ignoring its own! How many Protestants paid for their defence of the truth with THEIR blood? Huh? I take no doctrine for granted. My Saviour died for me so that I could have eternal life. Your teaching against this is rank heresy! My Protestant brethren died so that I could read the Bible in my own language! Just so you know…and you did say you like to know the truth. You’ve been told it. Do with it what you will. End of discussion.

Once again, I’ve managed to offend when I had no such intention. I say to you in all sincerity that I am only relating what is true, not at all telling you that everything that you believe is false. I’m mystified that you are assuming that.

I’m afraid you’ve been grossly misinformed if you think the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that Jesus died for us so that we can have eternal life. That’s what the Church is all about!

And, the Bible was translated into the vernacular long before Martin Luther was even born. The only reason it wasn’t in everyone’s hands is because each copy had to be hand made and so was not only expensive, but hard to come by. If it weren’t for the Catholic monks faithfully copying it by candlelight, none of us would even have it to read today. So, we owe the Church thanks for that alone. And that’s a plain fact.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Okay…Hold it.

Everybody calm down and deal with the issues and not each other.

Prove your case or refute the allegations but leave the personal sniping in your pocket or it will cost you.

I mean everyone, people.

It appears that I’m going to be doing some pruning again.

Thread closed while I unravel this mess.
Meanwhile I suggest all of you have a look at the Forum Rules.
MF

 

[RNRobert]

My Protestant brethren died so that I could read the Bible in my own language!

Actually, this is a Protestant myth, as is the one that the Catholic Church kept the Bible in Latin so the laity couldn’t read it. First off, until the invention of the printing press (and the first book Gutenburg printed was the Bible, BTW) most people were illiterate, and those few who could read could read Latin. Secondly, there were a number of Bibles in the vernacular before Luther came along. The reason the Church cracked down on folks like Wycliff and Tyndale was because A) they were bad translations (did you notice that there was never any attempt to reprint them?) and B), they were used to promulgate heretical ideas. This may sound harsh to you, but if (for the sake of argument) the Catholic Church ***IS ***the Church Christ founded, then it has the right, nay, it has the duty, to protect its flock from falsehood (read what Jesus, Paul. Jude and John say about false teachers).

 

[Michael_Francis]

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