Catholic Heretics and the Death Penalty

[VociMike]

Here is what you have not done:

You have not cited the current canon law that supports your accustation that the Church calls for the execution of heretics.

You have not given us any way to verify the authenticity of your book citations.

Lastly, I’m not sure if anybody has pointed this out to you, but what a canon lawyer writes is in no way binding on the Church. So again we are back to the requirement #1 that you provide, not cites of some book written by some lawyer, but cites of actual canon law. Until you do these things, you are simply wasting everybody’s time.

 

[robert_newman]

This is not a problem that I have to wrestle with. It’s a problem that you, as a Roman Catholic, have to solve. Either the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is the same today on heretics and the death penalty as in the Middle Ages, or it is not.

You have seen examples of 2 Roman Catholic publications of the 20th century, papally approved, which say the death penalty is still valid for heretics. Lepicier and de Luca. You cannot deny that this IS clear evidence.

As far as civil government is concerned, the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is very clear. In the Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius 1X we read -

‘The ecclesiastical power has a right to execute its authority INDEPENDENT of the toleration or assent of the civil government’
(Item 21)

Thus, the Roman Catholic Church claims that it’s laws can operate independently of secular governments if it so chooses.

Why not just admit that the death penalty still remains in force within the Roman Catholic Church for its heretics ? That is plain fact.

 

[VociMike]

Why not just admit that the death penalty still remains in force within the Roman Catholic Church for its heretics ? That is plain fact.

Your evasions are growing. All you have to do is cite this “plain fact” in the current code of canon law. Here’s the link again, to make it easy for you:

ourladyswarriors.org/canon/

I would ask you to stop posting anything else until you provide this one simple citation to prove your ongoing claim.

 

[fix]

Either the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is the same today on heretics and the death penalty as in the Middle Ages, or it is not.

The teaching on heresy is the same. The treatment of heretics differs, yet neither the treatment before or now contradicts justice.

You have seen examples of 2 Roman Catholic publications of the 20th century, papally approved, which say the death penalty is still valid for heretics. Lepicier and de Luca. You cannot deny that this IS clear evidence.

This is not clear to me at all. You provided limited quotes from some authors. Neither information proves your point. Do you claim the teaching authority of the Church today says the Church should put heretics to death?

As far as civil government is concerned, the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is very clear. In the Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius 1X we read -

‘The ecclesiastical power has a right to execute its authority INDEPENDENT of the toleration or assent of the civil government’
(Item 21)

The problem with limited quotes and no link is that we do not have full context.

Why not just admit that the death penalty still remains in force within the Roman Catholic Church for its heretics ? That is plain fact.

Why admit to something not proven true?

 

[robert_newman]

I have provided clear evidence from the publications made in Rome by two of your own papally approved writers. Do you wish me to give you details of the letters of papal approval ? These are clear, indisputable evidence that the Roman Catholic Church still approves of the death penalty for its heretics. These facts are facts.

I have submitted documentary evidence. Now it’s up to you. These documents are publicly available. And so far you have given nothing to contradict them.

 

[fix]

I have provided clear evidence from the publications made in Rome by two of your own papally approved writers. Do you wish me to give you details of the letters of papal approval ? These are clear, indisputable evidence that the Roman Catholic Church still approves of the death penalty for its heretics. These facts are facts.

I have submitted documentary evidence. Now it’s up to you. These documents are publicly available. And so far you have given nothing to contradict them.

What is a papally approved writer? Not everything that has some type of approval automatically means what is printed is binding on all Catholics or is official Church teaching.

Perhaps you can provide a link with the material that we could review?

 

[MaryRose35]

A simple question - is the death penalty still able to be given to Catholics who refuse to repent of a heresy ? The death penalty for heretics certainly seems to have been advocated by Roman Catholic canon lawyers as recently as the early 20th century. I have two publications from papally approved books which say that it’s lawfully that heretics should be executed. And these books (both of them published in the 20th century in Rome) had official approval of the papal office.

What’s the truth of this please ?

The truth is that there is nothing wrong with putting heretics to death. Just as it is alright to put a person to death who kills the body, so too is it alright to put a person to death who kills the soul… and that is what heretics do.

St. Thomas: QUESTION: Whether heretics ought to be tolerated?

I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil**-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics****, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. **

On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but “after the first and second admonition,” as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome** commenting on Gal. 5:9, “A little leaven,” says: “Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die.** Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame.”

Liberals, who care only for the body and not for the soul, cannot understand why the Church has been in favor of protecting the souls of her children by putting heretics to death.

For those who are not lost in liberalism, the above teaching from St. Thomas should explain it. For those who are there is little hope.

 

[robert_newman]

MaryRose35,

You have clarified the position very well. You have confirmed that what I posted here is completely accurate. The Roman Catholic Church STILL has the death penalty for its heretics.

So the 20th century publications by Lepicier and by de Luca are entirely correct. They are a true picture of papally approved teaching on this subject. As you say yourself.

I am not concerned with your statements on liberalism or on conservatism. I am solely concerned with establishing what the truth is within the Roman Catholic Church on this issue. You have confirmed, once again, what the truth IS on this issue. The death penalty remains for Roman Catholic heretics as you say yourself.

Yours sincerely

 

[fix]

MaryRose35,

You have clarified the position very well. You have confirmed that what I posted here is completely accurate. The Roman Catholic Church STILL has the death penalty for its heretics.

So the 20th century publications by Lepicier and by de Luca are entirely correct. They are a true picture of papally approved teaching on this subject. As you say yourself.

I am not concerned with your statements on liberalism or on conservatism. I am solely concerned with establishing what the truth is within the Roman Catholic Church on this issue. You have confirmed, once again, what the truth IS on this issue. The death penalty remains for Roman Catholic heretics as you say yourself.

Yours sincerely

No, MaryRose quoted Aquinas. His work here does not contradict charity or justice or reason. That does not mean the Church says heretics need to be put to death today. Can you not see that a remedy at one point in time may not be needed at every point in time?

 

[MaryRose35]

MaryRose35,

You have clarified the position very well. You have confirmed that what I posted here is completely accurate. The Roman Catholic Church STILL has the death penalty for its heretics.

So the 20th century publications by Lepicier and by de Luca are entirely correct. They are a true picture of papally approved teaching on this subject. As you say yourself.

I am not concerned with your statements on liberalism or on conservatism. I am solely concerned with establishing what the truth is within the Roman Catholic Church on this issue. You have confirmed, once again, what the truth IS on this issue. The death penalty remains for Roman Catholic heretics as you say yourself.

Yours sincerely

You are correct in one sense, but you may not be in another. It is true that the Catholic Church has always been in favor of putting to death a person who destroys the soul of others through heresy, but that is not the practice today.

One more important point to add is this. The Church was not the one who put the heretic to death. The Church was only the judge of the matter. Heresy used to be against the laws of the State, but the State did not have the qualifications nor the authority to judge whether or not a person was guilty of heresy. The judgment was left up to the Church. As St. Thomas says above, the Church would judge them, and if they were found guilty they were turned over to the State for punishment.

One final point in case you are a Protestant who thinks this practice was outrageous: The Protestants also used to put people to death. The difference was, they did it themselves.

 

[robert_newman]

fix,

A papally approved writer is a writer who has received approval by the papacy for what he has written.

In the case of Lepicier and of de Luca both of these Roman Catholic writers wrote on the death penalty for heretics. Both of them were papally approved for such writings.

 

[VociMike]

You have confirmed, once again, what the truth IS on this issue. The death penalty remains for Roman Catholic heretics as you say yourself.

Yours sincerely

For somebody who talks about canon law so much, you show a complete lack of understanding of the rules of evidence. You have not shown us that the books in question even exist. You have not shown us that the texts you quoted are contained in the books. And you have not shown us that these alleged texts are binding on the Church, or accurately reflect Church law. That’s three strikes on you, and you know what that means.

But you could redeem yourself by citing the current code of canon law which authorizes the death penalty for heresy. It would be so simple, and I would think for you, so satisfying. So why won’t you do it?

 

[robert_newman]

MaryRose,

We are not dealing here with what the secular state says. We are dealing with the Roman Catholic Church and whether it still has the death penalty for heretics. It does, as you accept.

 

[VociMike]

fix,

A papally approved writer is a writer who has received approval by the papacy for what he has written.

In the case of Lepicier and of de Luca both of these Roman Catholic writers wrote on the death penalty for heretics. Both of them were papally approved for such writings.

There is no such concept. It is a fabrication to mislead the innocent and unwary. Perhaps you would like to cite canon law to prove otherwise?

 

[VociMike]

Fellow forum members,

I am done with this particular bit of Reformation-style calumny. Such an approach may have worked in the 16th century, but in the 21st century it is just laughable. Perhaps you can extract from Mr. Newman a citation of the canon law he keeps claiming, but I most seriously doubt it. But this has been a fascinating reminder that there are people who are truly consumed with hatred of the Church, and with whom rational discourse is impossible.

 

[fix]

fix,

A papally approved writer is a writer who has received approval by the papacy for what he has written.

In the case of Lepicier and of de Luca both of these Roman Catholic writers wrote on the death penalty for heretics. Both of them were papally approved for such writings.

And you equate such approval as having equal weight to all other prouncements from Rome? It seems you think this level of approval is equal to the Church teaching on a matter like the Trinity?

Simply taking a few lines from some book that was given some level of approval does not make such a quote binding. Can’t you see such a difference?

Is an approved quote from an assistant to the assistant secretary of commerce equal to say the ruling of the supreme court?

 

[robert_newman]

Voci Mike,

1. I quote here the letter of approval for the work of Lepicier -

'‘The supreme Pontiff was immensely pleased with this work…and it will be of great value for the refutation of Modernists’. The same letter carried the pope’s benediction. This same letter from the Pope was also followed with a note of approval by the Prior-General of the monastery to which Lepicier belonged.

1. The work of Fr Marianus de Luca, of the Jesuit Order, Professor of the Decretals in the Georgian University of Rome (2 volumes) received the official sanction of his Jesuit superiors and a letter of approval from Pope Leo X111 (which is printed on the paper covers of each volume).

These authors and these approvals are sufficient evidence in reaffirming the bloodthirsty principles of Roman Catholic law on such an issue as heresy and its punishment.

The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on this issue IS THE SAME TODAY AS IT WAS IN THE 16TH CENTURY.

 

[MaryRose35]

MaryRose,

We are not dealing here with what the secular state says. We are dealing with the Roman Catholic Church and whether it still has the death penalty for heretics. It does, as you accept.

I just wanted to point out that the Church was not the one who put the person to death. And my guess is that you would have a hard time today finding a member of the hierarchy who would favor the death penalty for heretics. But, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

But again, if you are a Protestant who thinks it is outrageous that the Catholic Church was in favor of the death penalty, you need to know that the Protestants were in favor of it as well.

Martin Luther: "That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it . . . Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine . . . For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? . . . we conclude that . . . the stubborn sectaries must be put to death. (Janssen, pamphlet of 1536)

 

[MaryRose35]

RobertNewman:

I have a few questions.

1.) Why do you have a problem with the death penalty for heretics?

2.) Are you also against the death penalty for serial killers?

3.) Are you as shocked at the fact that the Protestants employed the death penalty for heretics as you are that the Catholics were in favor of it? Why the double standard?

 

[robert_newman]

Rational discourse means that I agreed with your original post. You said the Roman Catholic Church DOES have the death penalty for heretics. It does. The submitted evidence merely confirms this.

So I was called a liar and you know I am not a liar. I have produced now clear evidence of Roman Catholic teaching on this issue. The teaching on the death penalty for Roman Catholic heretics is the very same today as it was in the Middle Ages. Papally approved and confirmed in the sources I have repeatedly given.

It took time, but now you see your own Church’s position on these issues. They are very, very clear. That is the purpose of this thread. And unless you can show me a change in canon law on this issue it remains the same today.

Thank you