Catholic High School with Disturbing Reading Lists

[whatevergirl]

Believe me, I’m not defending the reading of this book out of “political correctness.” But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a teacher choosing a book by an acclaimed author because that author is black. Black American literature, especially when the author grew up in the earlier part of the 20th century, is distinctly different from white American literature. It is generally darker, rawer, and uglier than white literature as far as themes, characters, and presentation are concerned. A high-school English teacher who is presenting American Literature ought to include examples of black American literature, because it explains the worldview and self-image of early 20th century black Americans better than any history book could. If it is a dark and ugly book, it is because it was a dark and devestating worldview. While I wouldn’t encourage a 13 or 14 year old to read Toni Morrison, 16 or 17 year old should be able to handle reading that, especially in an academic setting.

The list posted earlier would ban Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Truman Capote, Kate Chopin, Umberto Eco, even Lois Lowry harmless and simple “The Giver.”

God bless,
Masha****
My dd is reading The Giver…funny you mention that.

 

[HouseArrest]

Wow -I’ve read a good number of books on the" Bad Book list"it’s really rather pathetic and sad to see such nonsense. Reading excerpts is not like reading the whole book and taking excerpts out of context is rather like taking a verse of scripture out of context- it’s dangerous. Forearming your children against the world is a much better choice then sheltering or condemning it.

Pathetic? Sad? Nonsense? What’s pathetic about informing others what is in the books in their schools? What’s pathetic about using it? And maybe after someone reads the excerpts they can then read the whole book, or not. Did you see it plastered all over the place that the list was not there to tell parents what books are inappropriate, that it is the parents’ job to do that? I said I used the list. I didn’t say I automatically nixed everything on it. I also said my children are all under 13.

Wow.

 

[juliamajor]

I beg to differ - the worst problems with child abuse occur when people DON’T talk about it, pretend it doesn’t happen, or not in their neighbourhood.

Talking about it, in most contexts - ie to your doctor, to the police, to your legislators, in the courts, in the confessional, in mainstream media … is in fact very healthy, doesn’t desensitise, and leads to positive action being taken (perpetrators being prosecuted, tougher laws being enacted and so on). And I don’t doubt that talking about Toni Morrison’s book in the classroom would almost certainly lead to victims coming forward.

Sure, if the only thing you want is to know that it’s wrong. That should, for people with a conscience, only be the first step. For the further steps yo need to know a whole lot more.

If you want, for example (and if you don’t there’s something wrong), on seeing that photo, to do something that has a chance of working to alleviate that child’s starving and help other children like her as well, then you need to know everything. Her name and where she lives, her current state of health, how old she is, and why she is starving.

So the question is do you just want to intellectually know that child abuse is wrong, do you just want your child to intellectually know that it’s wrong, or do you want, do you want your child, to be moved, shocked out of complacency and willing (and perhaps better able) to actually help do something about it?

actually meant to say "not talking about it is the problem -sorry for the typo!

 

[LilyM]

actually meant to say "not talking about it is the problem -sorry for the typo!

I was wondering if that was the case, no worries, I said my piece anyway for the benefit of those who are more of the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ attitude.

 

[juliamajor]

I don’t totally disagree with you…but, the book is not only written from the victim’s perspective. I read the Child Called It series, and I nearly threw up. I don’t shy away from tough subjects, but this book is also written in the perspective of the molestor. And that language is too sexualized in a very perverse way to mean anything positive for a teenager.

A teenage girl needs to read this book, and read the perspective of a rapist and child molestor…because…__________________

Please, fill in the blank. I’m curious, as to how this will help a teenage girl to grow…reading the perverse thoughts of a child molestor. Perhaps, if the book was written strictly from the perspective of the victim, I’d think differently. But, the writing is graphic to sell books. And that is why I have a problem with controversy today. Controversial used to be someone standing up for civil rights or some moral victory. Now, it’s smut written on a page for teenagers to read, and parents to “squirm,” as you say. Do you think none of us have been abused, and this is shedding some taboo light onto the subject? I have known friends who were abused, but their side concerned me more, than interviewing their abusers as to the thrill they received from abusing/molesting.

This book is shock and awe…and shock and awe sells. Child Called It, I believe won a Nobel prize too…but the writing was pretty poor. It was a very sad and horrible story of a boy who was horrifically abused at the hands of his alcoholic mom. But, it wasn’t Nobel prize worthy. But, shock and awe sells. Period.

A teenage girl needs to read this book, and read the perspective of a rapist and child molestor…because…_lots of people justify their evil, commit wrong and do evil to people because they want to feel empowered by denigrating somebody else-, they justify their evil by convoluted and twisted logic-We can do they same thing by justifying evil and sin , as we often do…" A child called It" I believed may have won a Pulitzer not a Nobel.I’ve read it- it was horrible- but what I took away from it is that one can survive this evil that is perpetrated upon the innocent and become a better person by knowing that they have personal worth given them by God and not dependent on anyone’s view of them… And what it has led to is the freeing of people who went through horrible childhoods by giving abuse a voice and a face .That makes it prize worthy in my eyes. writing may have been mediocre but it was heartfelt and true and from what i’ve heard, helped a lot of people. Shock is what people need sometimes or else evil goes unpunished and unnoticed.Shock and awed is what we should be to know that such things exist & that it is up to us to correct them.

 

[whatevergirl]

A teenage girl needs to read this book, and read the perspective of a rapist and child molestor…because…_lots of people justify their evil, commit wrong and do evil to people because they want to feel empowered by denigrating somebody else-, they justify their evil by convoluted and twisted logic-We can do they same thing by justifying evil and sin , as we often do…" A child called It" I believed may have won a Pulitzer not a Nobel.I’ve read it- it was horrible- but what I took away from it is that one can survive this evil that is perpetrated upon the innocent and become a better person by knowing that they have personal worth given them by God and not dependent on anyone’s view of them… And what it has led to is the freeing of people who went through horrible childhoods by giving abuse a voice and a face .That makes it prize worthy in my eyes. writing may have been mediocre but it was heartfelt and true and from what i’ve heard, helped a lot of people. Shock is what people need sometimes or else evil goes unpunished and unnoticed.Shock and awed is what we should be to know that such things exist & that it is up to us to correct them.

Dare I applaud someone I disagree with? LOL Your logic, and genuine compassion for this, is really refreshing to read. I still don’t think it’s necessary for this book to be read in a Catholic school setting…nor by teens who are school age.

I am in agreement with your post and the tenets of teaching children of all ages, varying degrees of the horrors of society (age appropriate), but disagree with it being a mandatory reading selection for high school teen girls. If it is optional, fine. Not mandatory. But, your reasoning is very note worthy…I appreciate you filling in the blank!

 

[juliamajor]

Pathetic? Sad? Nonsense? What’s pathetic about informing others what is in the books in their schools? What’s pathetic about using it? And maybe after someone reads the excerpts they can then read the whole book, or not. Did you see it plastered all over the place that the list was not there to tell parents what books are inappropriate, that it is the parents’ job to do that? I said I used the list. I didn’t say I automatically nixed everything on it. I also said my children are all under 13.

Wow.

It’s pathetic because they are depending on people instead of themselves to decide what is suitable. sad that so many great books have been given over to silliness.Nonsense because people are relying on the often bizarre qualms of other people.Informing? how about “witch hunt” . Sorry but I want “Huckleberry Finn” and “Tom Sawyer”( the most banned books in America!)on my library bookshelf.I want “Catcher in the Rye”.Almost all of my books are bought- if you can buy books that you think are suitable- do,but don’t ban other people from reading the books.It’s just wrong and reminds me too much of the book burnings of the past.It is a dangerous thing and often back fires when you try to censor thought.And yes children under 13 do think.My Child was reading at a college level when he was in grammar school. I was not about to tell him that he had to stick to child appropriate books or had to read books marked for children. When my son read books about the Civil war when He was 8 yrs old they tried to tell me that it could make him violent!such idiocy is invoked in the name of child protection.I told them even if the books were over his head he would still learn from them - even if that meant looking stuff up in the Dictionary or Encyclopedia.Never limit a curious mind because in the end it will come back to bite you in the butt.And by the way , he understood the books very well.A parents job is to know their kids and steer them in the direction that will emphasize the God endowed Brains and Talents that they have been given.To give them a Background that is loving and sound- because it is through their parents love for them they learn about God’s love. To squelch abilities of the intellect is wrong. To limit them in the intellect is wrong.Listen to them,they know what they like-kids are not as stupid as the schools and adults think they are.Let them tell you what they would like to read and talk to them about it.You’ll find out a lot about your child when you talk to them about books-hopes fears, dreams.Most kids gravitate toward the positive- if they don’t then you have something to talk about Listen to them and don’t let your prejudices influence them.

 

[whatevergirl]

Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer…are the most banned books in America? Stop it…lol



What???

 

[MamaZona]

Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer…are the most banned books in America? Stop it…lol



What???

There was a dust up over this locally not to long ago. I wish I could find the news article. They were upset about the “n” word, as I recall.

 

[whatevergirl]

Interesting. I would like to see that article. It’s been years since I’ve read those books. I guess I did read some controversial materials back in MY day.

 

[MamaZona]

Interesting. I would like to see that article. It’s been years since I’ve read those books. I guess I did read some controversial materials back in MY day.

Here found this at least:

In Mark Twain’s lifetime, his books Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn were excluded from the juvenile sections of the Brooklyn Public library (among other libraries), and banned from the library in Concord, MA, home of Henry Thoreau. In recent years, some high schools have dropped Huckleberry Finn from their reading lists, or have been sued by parents who want the book dropped. In Tempe, Arizona, a parent’s lawsuit that attempted to get the local high school to remove the book from a required reading list went as far as a federal appeals court in 1998. (The court’s decision in the case, which affirmed Tempe High’s right to teach the book, has some interesting comments about education and racial tensions.) The Tempe suit, and other recent incidents, have often been concerned with the use of the word "****", a word that also got Uncle Tom’s Cabin challenged in Waukegan, Illinois. **

It’s from this site: onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/banned-books.html

I think there was one even more recently than that, but I think it involved a school play version of it.

 

[graceandglory]

Forearming your children against the world is a much better choice then sheltering or condemning it.

The more I think about it, the more I KNOW my job as a Christian parent is to shelter my children from the world and condemn the sin in the world.

Who else is going to protect my child’s chastity?

Forcing my children to read sexual content is a violation of their chastity.

 

[SmartyPants]

The more I think about it, the more I KNOW my job as a Christian parent is to shelter my children from the world and condemn the sin in the world.

**Who else is going to protect my child’s chastity?

Forcing my children to read sexual content is a violation of their chastity**.

See… that’s just it… those passages quoted here are not about sex or chastity. They are about power and rape is a crime of power!

 

[juliamajor]

The more I think about it, the more I KNOW my job as a Christian parent is to shelter my children from the world and condemn the sin in the world.

Who else is going to protect my child’s chastity?

Forcing my children to read sexual content is a violation of their chastity.

Wrong- your child has to deal with the world- how else can one change it. Why is the Church on Earth called the church militant? To fight against evil- not to let it consume the world.We are not merely to be bystanders-but a force to help heal the world…Christians are not meant to be in splendid isolation, and neither are your children. Read Matthew 25. That is what we are supposed to be and supposed to do. as for guarding your child’s chastity-you guard it, then they guard as they get older. It is their free will that ultimately gives them the choice to be chaste or not…Oh, also pray a heck of a lot!

 

[HouseArrest]

It’s pathetic because they are depending on people instead of themselves to decide what is suitable. Not true. Like I said, it is information only. It says so all over the place in the website. Even if it did not, what is someone going to do - reach through the internet and grab my throat if I read the site then let the book be read? No one is making anyone ban the books. sad that so many great books have been given over to silliness.Nonsense because people are relying on the often bizarre qualms of other people.Informing? how about “witch hunt” . They are excerpts. The words themselves are directly from the books. Sorry but I want “Huckleberry Finn” and “Tom Sawyer”( the most banned books in America!)on my library bookshelf.I want “Catcher in the Rye”. They are not on the list I am talking about. You are looking at a link to other “lists” that are independent of the site and are included for information only. Actually, the whole site is for information only. Almost all of my books are bought- if you can buy books that you think are suitable- do,but don’t ban other people from reading the books. **I am not suggesting they be banned.**It’s just wrong and reminds me too much of the book burnings of the past.It is a dangerous thing and often back fires when you try to censor thought.And yes children under 13 do think.My Child was reading at a college level when he was in grammar school. **Yeah so is mine. Intelligence and maturity are two very different things. My child is 13. But she does not have the maturity level of a college student. ** I was not about to tell him that he had to stick to child appropriate books or had to read books marked for children. When my son read books about the Civil war when He was 8 yrs old they tried to tell me that it could make him violent!such idiocy is invoked in the name of child protection.I told them even if the books were over his head he would still learn from them - even if that meant looking stuff up in the Dictionary or Encyclopedia.Never limit a curious mind because in the end it will come back to bite you in the butt. There are many ways to stimulate an intelligent child. Mine’s learning Italian. Without sex scenes. And by the way , he understood the books very well.A parents job is to know their kids and steer them in the direction that will emphasize the God endowed Brains and Talents that they have been given.To give them a Background that is loving and sound- because it is through their parents love for them they learn about God’s love. To squelch abilities of the intellect is wrong. Again, intelligence does not equal maturity. To limit them in the intellect is wrong.Listen to them,they know what they like-kids are not as stupid as the schools and adults think they are.Let them tell you what they would like to read and talk to them about it.You’ll find out a lot about your child when you talk to them about books-hopes fears, dreams.Most kids gravitate toward the positive-Then I don’t know why they’d want to read many of the books on the list I am referring to so I suppose it shouldn’t even be an issue. Except if you don’t want them to get one accidentally, and be horrified. Oh, that’s right, that’s why I use the list. if they don’t then you have something to talk about Listen to them and don’t let your prejudices predjudice??? influence them.

 

[juliamajor]

Also chastity is not taken away by reading literature- we are not talking about porn meant to titillate.We are talking about the reality of pain and hurt in the world and how some people deal with it and how it effects their life.Learning that does not make you unchaste at all.Your intention and what you gather from the reading would determine that. Besides why would reading about an event so unpleasant make a child unchaste? or do you think children are so depraved as to be insensible to the horror they are reading about?That either makes them idiots or monsters-sorry I simply don’t believe that to be true.

 

[HouseArrest]

Adding more to my post from above because it’s too late to edit:

Listen I don’t disagree with anyone here about the book censoring. There is a difference between choosing a different book, censoring, and burning. If the school chooses a different book that can serve to teach the same lesson, then that would be best. Then if you want your kid to read a controversial book at home to drive home the point because you feel the class didn’t really get it because the book wasn’t descriptive enough, or for whatever reason, then go ahead. You can only choose so many books in a class. If you simply don’t choose one, it doesn’t mean it’s censored. If that were the case, most books would be considered censored.

I also think your words are somewhat condescending. People are not pathetic, bizarre, sad, predjudice, silly and spouting nonsense if they decide their children shouldn’t read a book.

 

[Writer]

my thoughts: i never want to see that again!! poor girls being taught to read this.

Agreed. I wouldn’t want my daughter reading that in school either. I would continue to pursue this…

 

[juliamajor]

[/QUOTENot true. Like I said, it is information only. It says so all over the place in the website. Even if it did not, what is someone going to do - reach through the internet and grab my throat if I read the site then let the book be read? No one is making anyone ban the books. by considering some books unsuitable(and I’d love to know what criteria they use) and marking them negatively is defacto censorship.They are excerpts. The words themselves are directly from the books. Yeah still taken out of context- context is all and context puts things into perspective while not wringing hands over the “naughty bits”.They are not on the list I am talking about. You are looking at a link to other “lists” that are independent of the site and are included for information only. Actually, the whole site is for information only. So are most banned book sites. And no, Twains novels are not on that first list but is certainly of the same mind.And yes it’s on a hell of a lot of banned book list-(people can’t even agree on what book to ban).!I am not suggesting they be banned.Sorry, you are encouraging banning.was reading at a college level when he was in grammar school. Yeah so is mine. Intelligence and maturity are two very different things. My child is 13. But she does not have the maturity level of a college student. IIntelligence and maturity are very different .She may not be as mature as a college student but doesn’t make her immature enough to read a novel portraying some lousy facts of life.There are many ways to stimulate an intelligent child. Mine’s learning Italian. Without sex scenes. Yeah, no kidding. My child is now 23 taught himself spanish, chinese, dutch. and is graduating college with three BA’sTaught himself and passed an economics final.So reading from the ‘banned’ list didn’t make him a raving sexual maniac. besides rape is not sex - it’s violence. and incest is not sex - it’s a crime.we are not talking about the “kama sutra” or something by the Marquis De Sade. They scene is meant to be gross and yuck inducing- besides she could glance over that part if it disturbs her so much.I still do that when reading something not particularly nice.Again, intelligence does not equal maturity. No it doesn’t but abilities should be encouraged no matter what they age.Except if you don’t want them to get one accidentally, and be horrified. Oh, that’s right, that’s why I use the list. Sorry I don’t get that all.I let my kids get the books they wanted to read- forcing them to read something I want them to read will not work. None of the books on that infernal list are going to send your kid to hell in a handbasket.I doubt they’d pick out the “Delta of Venus” or Tropic of Capricorn"!? so why be afraid if you are there with them.To a certain extant you gotta trust their instincts and what you have taught them.- they do listen more then you know.and if they are horrified then you haven’t taught them enough about the world and the dangers therein.there is nothing so dangerous in this world that you cannot talk or write about it.nothing you can guard against if they are unaware of the danger.If they are horrified talk and explain- don’t hide- it serves no purposeGood Luck

 

[bobrsue]

I pick up a few general themes across this thread, maybe all obvious, but let’s review…

1. people care deeply about this
2. parents want to be involved with their high-schooler’s reading and worldview formation
3. the school should work with parents’ awareness and involvement
4. Catholic education should allow teens to become more aware of the world as necessary and beneficial for their education and ultimate mission to change the world…but not necessarily by being dragged thru each and every depravity for the sake of learning.
5. choice of school texts (not censorship) should be carefully made. I suspect this was carefully selected, but for what purpose?

PS, see my earlier post about other disturbing content and agendas in this book (reference website). It’s not just one bad page or one bad topic. I dare you to find one good male character depiction. Is that a theme with Toni Morrison?