Catholic history is disturbing

[Peter_J]

Memo to self: SyCarl knows too much.

 

[Peter_J]

Again, as I mentioned, Paul was an Apostle. The Pope is not an Apostle. Also, Paul did not claim infallibility, the Pope does.

I think I missed this sentence the first time around.

Alright, that’s true, Paul didn’t claim infallibility; but the Church claims it for him, right? (There may not be a “dogma of Pauline infallibility”, but we do believe that Paul could exercise infallibility.)

 

[Peter_J]

The Church has said the Pope can act infallibly. It is up to him when he does.

This strikes me as a situation where the exact wording is crucial. Can you please quote the precise church document that says that it’s up to him when he acts infallibly? (I suspect that said document may not mean what you think it means.)

 

[SyCarl]

This strikes me as a situation where the exact wording is crucial. Can you please quote the precise church document that says that it’s up to him when he acts infallibly? (I suspect that said document may not mean what you think it means.)

we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that

* when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
      o that is, when,
           1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
           2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
           3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, 
* he possesses,
      o by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, 
* that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
* Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm#papal%20infallibility%20defined

And it was exercised in this way when Pius XII proclaimed the Assumption.

1. For which reason, after we have poured forth prayers of supplication again and again to God, and have invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God who has lavished his special affection upon the Virgin Mary, for the honor of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the Victor over sin and death, for the increase of the glory of that same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the entire Church; by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

1. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

He decided that it would be an infallible definition.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

The missing letter to the Laodiceans comes to mind. It was not preserved through the protection of the Holy Spirit as the canonical letters were.

It wasn’t preserved because it wasn’t supposed to be.

Then again, perhaps it’ll “show up” at some point in future history when it DOES need to come to light?

The Church has said the Pope can act infallibly. It is up to him when he does. Then why would he choose ever not to. It appears that he claims even more authority than the Apostles did since they didn’t declare themselves infallible.

Whenever a Pope is teaching actual dogma, he’s being infallible.

Whenever he’s doing anything else, he’s not being infallible.

Got that? Now let’s move on.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Memo to self: SyCarl knows too much.

Perhaps. But he doesn’t SEEM to claim infallibility, so we needn’t call out the Vaticommandoes to whisk him off to the Vatican Secret Guantanamo base, do we?

…good thing, that. Those guys cost a FORTUNE to mobilize!

:shamrock2:

 

[Peter_J]

piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm#papal%20infallibility%20defined

And it was exercised in this way when Pius XII proclaimed the Assumption.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

He decided that it would be an infallible definition.

So I guess this idea that ‘it’s up to him when he acts infallibly’ is in the same realm as “co-Redemptrix” – i.e. Popes have made statements supporting it (directly or indirectly), but never officially declared it.

 

[Peter_J]

so we needn’t call out the Vaticommandoes to whisk him off to the Vatican Secret Guantanamo base, do we?

These Protestant cartels represent a clear and present danger to the national security of the United States.

Oh wait. What were we talking about?

 

[Cinette]

I don’t know, but I don’t care too much anyhow.

The truth is the truth, regardless of whether so-and-so believes it.

*I knew someone who was a very good man but he didn’t believe in God. Faith is a gift from God - one of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Who knows why sometimes people are not given the gift of Faith.

I observed this man closely. He was extremely kind and considerate and was self-sacrificing, generous (both with his time and with things). He helped people and cared very much about them.

We say all good comes from God. He must have received his goodness from God. He was also a faithfull husband and a good Father, a good friend, a good neighbour.

Does such a man go to Hell?*

]

 

[ron77nyc]

I don’t know, but I don’t care too much anyhow.

The truth is the truth, regardless of whether so-and-so believes it.

I don’t think you get my point. Boniface said you have to be a Catholic to go to heaven. John Paul II says you don’t. If both are infallible they should agree.

 

[CWBetts]

I don’t think you get my point. Boniface said you have to be a Catholic to go to heaven. John Paul II says you don’t. If both are infallible they should agree.

The key here is the infallibility issue. Were they speaking infallibly when they made these statements?

 

[guanophore]

I agree that Protestants in themselves are not heretics, but isn’t the doctrine of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura still considered a heresy albeit a minor one? If not, how does the Church see these doctrine now?

If these are still considered erroneous doctrines, would that not classify them as heresy? Or is there a different term they use these days?

These are major heresies. Always have been, always will be.

I do know that Vatican II accept that Protestants have have a part of the truth, just not the fullnes of Truth.

What I wanted to get cleared in my head is that the doctrine IS a heresy and the reformers would be heretics but not necessarily the followers who did not know any better.

Then the question arises: What about those, who in spite of having been shown the error of this doctrine and inspite of not having any satisfactory counter argument to the position still believe in Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura just because?

There are some who keep going back to the same argument for SS and SF inspite of these having been refuted.

Would they still not be considered heretics?

I read somewhere (but can’ remember where) that heresy means half-truth.

They could still be in invincible ignorance. sorry, I am behind in the thread.

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t think you get my point. Boniface said you have to be a Catholic to go to heaven. John Paul II says you don’t. If both are infallible they should agree.

Or perhaps your assumption that they are infallible is wrong. Perhaps they’re infallible some of the time (like the Apostles, who were infallible while writing Scripture).

 

[Realcatholicgk]

[QUOUE=Peter J]
I thought we were talking about: if the Pope can teach infallibly, why would he ever choose not to?

And that question still remains. Did Paul or Peter decide when they were going to be infallible? Not everything the Apostles wrote was infallible. The missing letter to the Laodiceans comes to mind. It was not preserved through the protection of the Holy Spirit as the canonical letters were.

The Church has said the Pope can act infallibly. It is up to him when he does. Then why would he choose ever not to. It appears that he claims even more authority than the Apostles did since they didn’t declare themselves infallible.

** Actually God has said the Pope can act infallibly. Nor is it a charism that belongs only to the Pope. Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, “in doctrinal unity with the pope”, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We know that God said this because we have this from Jesus himself, he promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18). So call Jesus a liar, if you desire! You already disregard the power he gave His church by following some group that has been around less that 500 years! Way to go Einstein!

I am sending you the com plete truth that the catholic church teaches for your salvation and to save your soul. I hope the devil doesn’t to stop you from receiving the truth as taught by the RCC!**
freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky056.gif

 

[Methodi]

*I knew someone who was a very good man but he didn’t believe in God. Faith is a gift from God - one of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Who knows why sometimes people are not given the gift of Faith.

I observed this man closely. He was extremely kind and considerate and was self-sacrificing, generous (both with his time and with things). He helped people and cared very much about them.

We say all good comes from God. He must have received his goodness from God. He was also a faithfull husband and a good Father, a good friend, a good neighbour.

Does such a man go to Hell?*

]

I dont think anyone is going to hell, at least i Hope not

 

[SyCarl]

So I guess this idea that ‘it’s up to him when he acts infallibly’ is in the same realm as “co-Redemptrix” – i.e. Popes have made statements supporting it (directly or indirectly), but never officially declared it.

Which of course is why there are movements asking him to define it.

 

[Peter_J]

Which of course is why there are movements asking him to define it.

Absolutely. And just as there are some Catholics who want the Pope to dogmatically define such-and-such statement about Mary, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are Catholics who want the Pope to dogmatically define such-and-such statement about Papal Infallibility.

Just because there’s already one dogma about Papal Infallibility, doesn’t mean that there won’t be additional ones in the future.

 

[Cinette]

I dont think anyone is going to hell, at least i Hope not

Methodi - hey are you reading any good books lately? You really need to catch up on the teachings of the Church

 

[Realcatholicgk]

The key here is the infallibility issue. Were they speaking infallibly when they made these statements?

** You are right, Carl. We know, that they weren’t! What amazes me about Protestants is they don’t agree with our Popes. However, if they find a “conflict” they are quick to play the infallibility card! They can’t explain why they ignore Jesus’ teachings in the Bible that we explain to them.Neither of the pope’s spoke infallible and both statements contain “truths”. But they do not teach dogmatically so that is one reason why I personally can choose which version I wish to embrace, either way I can remain a Catholic! Rather, then lie to my separated brethren , and tell them that their denominations are acceptable. I rather outline their heresies while professing that Jesus made one holy catholic and apolsotic church and that was 2,000 years ago. I stress that if so called 'christians" follow a church which dates back around 500 years old they “may not” have a chance to even be considered for entry into Heaven, even though they are members of the catholic church through baptism, because 1) They have been taught about Jesus and the truth is available for them to learn! 2) The scriptures clearly says what they must do to have eternal life and 3) Their practice of many heresies infacto prove they are not in communion with Jesus and his church! The 61,000 denominations with their 1,375 doctrines and dogmas don’t have a chance to prevail against Jesus and his real church.
Matthew 28:18-20: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Matthew 16:18: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death (gates of hell) shall not prevail against it.”

The Scriptural testimony is clear, and is confirmed by history, the Catholic Church endures century after century despite all obstacles. Christ’s Church never ceased to exist and have to be reinvented at a later date. Such a hypothesis is ridiculous! “Man-made” religions cannot compete against the divine institution of the Catholic Church.

And that is just the way it is! **

benedictus2:

I agree that Protestants in themselves are not heretics,

**Well Ben, you would agree wrongly, my friend! They are by being Protestants! **

benedictus2:

but isn’t the doctrine of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura still considered a heresy albeit a minor one? If not, how does the Church see these doctrine now?** **

They are not minor!

benedictus2:

If these are still considered erroneous doctrines, would that not classify them as heresy? Or is there a different term they use these days?

**False teachings that go against the catholic church are heresies. People who follow them are heretics. But they prefer “separated brethren” and Vatican II calls them that so when I say “separated brethren” you can bet I mean Heretics! guanophore says: “They could still be in invincible ignorance” I rather say that IMO they are in the hands of Satan. As faithfilled catholics, it is our responsibility to pray for them and their souls. I added the conversion of all protestants into my daily rosary, I recommend all Catholics that pray the rosary do the same (Note to "separated Brethren: Catholics are not required to have a “devotion” to Mary, it is a personal “choice”) Our Blessed Mother can do wonders if we only ask her!!

Many people who are good, God fearing people, full with love and honor are being deceived by the devil and his false “christian” denominations and being lead to hell because they are being taught false, corrupted, twisted doctrines. All 61,000 will admit that the "others’ are wrong along with the catholic church! And The question must be asked who was here first? Who did Jesus build his church on? Who holds the keys to heaven? **

Cinette:

Hi Cinette
Does such a man go to Hell?

** Don’t you agree that only God knows for sure? I wonder how anyone knew he didn’t believe in God. I would like to know myself. There are a couple here I wonder about myself! **

Methodi:

I dont think anyone is going to hell, at least i Hope not

** Hi Methodi,
You are too nice! :flowers:
I would hope not, also. But I am afraid that many will go there, that is if Jesus didn’t lie! You don’t think he lied do you? But Lets pray that you are right, maybe a miracle will happen! I know Hitler and many others will be glad if you are correct!

Many “separated brethren” should join in this prayer, their eternal souls really do depend on it! **

 

[guanophore]

** Rather, then lie to my separated brethren , and tell them that their denominations are acceptable. I rather outline their heresies while professing that Jesus made one holy catholic and apolsotic church and that was 2,000 years ago. **

It is acceptable to receive the Teaching of the Church on this point, and the Catechism is clear that God uses these communities to draw people to HImself. God desires unity, and He only founded one Church, but He still works through these incomplete expressions for HIs glory. Failure to accept this is a denial of the Church teaching. Protestants are like Apollos,and our approach to them should be that of Prisca and Aquila, rather than alienation.

** I stress that if so called 'christians" follow a church which dates back around 500 years old they “may not” have a chance to even be considered for entry into Heaven, even though they are members of the catholic church through baptism,**

God can save whoever He wants, however He desires. (CCC) 819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

** Well Ben, you would agree wrongly, my friend! They are by being Protestants! **

No, they are not. When you put forward this notion, you are speaking contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches. Embracing heretical doctrine does not, by default, make one a heretic.

818 "**However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation **those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

**
They are not minor!**

I agree, but approaching them with such an adversarial attitude is counter productive. The vast majority of them are ignorant of the true doctrines.

**
False teachings that go against the catholic church are heresies. People who follow them are heretics.**

As you can see from the quotes I have provided, this statement of yours is contrary to the teaching of the Church. Only those who once embraced the true teachings and willfully rejected them can be rightfully charged with the sin of heresy.

** But they prefer “separated brethren” and Vatican II calls them that so when I say “separated brethren” you can bet I mean Heretics! **

I understand that your personal opinion on this matter is divergent from the Teaching of the Church as represented in the catechism. I also think that your adversarial attitude and insistence on using this term does not serve the unification of the Body.

** guanophore says: “They could still be in invincible ignorance” I rather say that IMO they are in the hands of Satan.**

Yes, it is clear that your opinion is contrary to the Teaching of the Church.

** As faithfilled catholics, it is our responsibility to pray for them and their souls. I added the conversion of all protestants into my daily rosary, I recommend all Catholics that pray the rosary do the same (Note to "separated Brethren: Catholics are not required** to have a “devotion” to Mary, it is a personal “choice”) Our Blessed Mother can do wonders if we only ask her!!

I am glad we are in agreement on this point.

** Many people who are good, God fearing people, full with love and honor are being deceived by the devil and his false “christian” denominations and being lead to hell because they are being taught false, corrupted, twisted doctrines.**

God knows the desires of their heart.

** All 61,000 will admit that the "others’ are wrong along with the catholic church! And The question must be asked who was here first? Who did Jesus build his church on? Who holds the keys to heaven? **

There is not doubt that Jesus only founded one Church, and that there is One Faith, One Baptism, One Lord. However, to deny that faithful (though often ignorant or misled) Protestants are not members of that one body does not glorify God. Paul and Priscilla did not spurn the faith of Apollos, though he was uneducated.

** Don’t you agree that only God knows for sure? **

Knowing this, it seems odd that you judge them yourself.

** Many “separated brethren” should join in this prayer, their eternal souls really do depend on it! **

I don’t think your attitude in this matter encourages our separated brethren to join you in prayer.