A
Annie
Guest
She said problems were apparent… but the “mess like that” didn’t really exist until 30 years in, when he decided he was “really a woman.”
Hindsight is 20/20, which is why we are told not to judge.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Hindsight is 20/20, which is why we are told not to judge.
Q
QwertyGirl
Guest
She said she knew something was terribly wrong at the time of the honeymoon.
"Our honeymoon was a disaster,” she said. “My gut told me we had a real problem…. "
Thus my post about listening to intuition and avoiding denial.
Learning from these stories when they hold meaningful lessons, isn’t judgement.
"Our honeymoon was a disaster,” she said. “My gut told me we had a real problem…. "
Thus my post about listening to intuition and avoiding denial.
Learning from these stories when they hold meaningful lessons, isn’t judgement.
Last edited:
A
Annie
Guest
This is the part I have a problem with. We don’t know what was happening, what she perceived, at the time she “brought a bunch of innocent lives” into the world.Doesn’t mean I would bring a bunch of innocent lives, willingly and knowingly, into a mess like that.
And that comment is judgemental.
Last edited:
V
VanitasVanitatum
Guest
Huh, this sentiment is almost a given on the forums.Sorry to be the ogre in the room but we really have to start showing our love and concern for the individual but stay strong to our faith.
O
OraLabora
Guest
I’m pretty sure anyone transitioning is doing it with professional help.Hopefully, the man will recognize this and seek professional psychiatric care and spiritual care to help him finally overcome the delusion.
It’s not a delusion, and to say so is highly offensive to transgendered people. In fact, one of the criteria for diagnosis is that the patient not be delusional. The ones I know, including my daughter, are highly rational people; she is high-functioning and a high-achiever in the hard sciences, as are some of her friends.
These are not delusional people. The issue is deep and visceral and quite possibly linked to androgen deprivation in the brain during gestation. And certainly not remediated by psychiatry nor spiritual support. They can help the person cope with the burden, but cannot “cure” the condition. You can’t pray it away.
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
We don’t know what causes transgender thoughts and feelings.It’s not a delusion, and to say so is highly offensive to transgendered people.
Until we know, we are free to give our own testimonies about this issue.
And I’ve personally seen enough kids with unresolved issues being hurried through (at least social) transitioning that to make a statement like “transgenders aren’t delusional” is pretty disingenuous.
O
OraLabora
Guest
There is, however, some evidence of an organic basis.We don’t know what causes transgender thoughts and feelings.
So any opining risks being premature and flat out wrong. Thus, compassion is the order of the day, not projecting one’s own fear onto this suffering minority.
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
There is some evidence for a lot of things going into this condition.There is, however, some evidence of an organic basis.
So any opining risks being premature and flat out wrong. Thus, compassion is the order of the day, not projecting one’s own fear onto this suffering minority.
But people have the right to know that there is no consensus as to what transgender is. Or what causes it.
People have the right to know that people can and do grow out of this condition.
People have the right to know that there IS NO definitive screening tool to tell if this is a temporary condition, or if a person has a chance to grow out of it and go on to lead a normal life.
People have the right to know that diagnosis is entirely based on the patient’s self reporting. After a certain age this self reporting occurs with NO (name removed by moderator)ut from any other family member. So patients can and do either lie their heads off, or have constructed an entirely false narrative of their life, and the therapist has NO WAY to know what’s true and what’s false in the patient’s report.
People have the right to know that not every clinic that dispenses hormones requires a workup by a psychiatrist.
Amd people have the right to know that this issue has become so politicized and weaponized that researchers hands are very tied when they try to research these issues.
O
OraLabora
Guest
Yes but… people also have the right to know that WPATH standards of care are professionally vetted, and built upon long experience in the matter. And not all of their suggested treatments involve hormones or surgery. Conservative approaches are also beneficial in many cases. And there are diagnostic standards…
While I agree that there is some militancy here, I suspect it is because of a long history of treating the transgendered as pariahs in our society. The first step to dialogue, ISTM, is to remove that stigma and treat them with dignity and respect regardless of our own opinions. We cannot know what is going inside their heads, and the severity of their situation.
Yes, there are challenges separating the real cases from uncertain ones. We can’t underestimate those, but nor can we ignore the hard cases, the ones where the transgendered are driven to suicide. It’s why gatekeeping is so vitally important with the transgendered.
While I agree that there is some militancy here, I suspect it is because of a long history of treating the transgendered as pariahs in our society. The first step to dialogue, ISTM, is to remove that stigma and treat them with dignity and respect regardless of our own opinions. We cannot know what is going inside their heads, and the severity of their situation.
Yes, there are challenges separating the real cases from uncertain ones. We can’t underestimate those, but nor can we ignore the hard cases, the ones where the transgendered are driven to suicide. It’s why gatekeeping is so vitally important with the transgendered.
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
LOL if only there was actual gatekeeping.It’s why gatekeeping is so vitally important with the transgendered.
See, most people think that people who are transitioning have all or mostly been very examined by very trained professionals using tried and true virtuallly infallible screening tools.
Haha. No.
But to be fair, it’s very hard to treat a dysfunction of which the only criteria for diagnosis is the self-report (with no way to verify accuracy) of a deeply distressed person.
Not to mention that a lot of these teenagers are being given ideas and coached what to say and egged on by Internet people and their real life friends who are wildly innaccurate about their own knowledge of sex.
Don’t you remember the vast inaccuracies about sex and romance you and your friends exchanged when you were a teenager? I can guarantee the kiddos aren’t any smarter today.
People need to know that there are numerous fundamental problems with the whole transgender issue.
O
OraLabora
Guest
Just a caveat, I am the father of an (adult) transgendered child.
I can assure you it is not a lark.
I can assure you it is not a lark.
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
I know.I am the father of an (adult) transgendered child.
And I have a testimony, too. A very close family member who was railroaded through a sex change. Without ever fixing all his numerous other problems.
And wound up in a worse mental state with the added bonus of a permanently mutilated body.
His handlers made sure that those of us who had information to shed light on this kid’s condition were unheard.
These cases are still going on today.
A lot.
O
OraLabora
Guest
Here in Canada, the state will pay for sex-change procedures (HRT, surgery) provided that the patient is treated according to the WPATH standards of care. Of course if they can afford it and can go elsewhere for treatment, it’s their business, but given the cost of the procedures that’s only an option for a very few fortunate candidates. Those standards require two letters, and one must be from a board-certified psychiatrist (MD), and it requires living fully in the desired gender role for at least one year.
So you’re unlikely to find too many professionals “railroading” candidates into changing.
So you’re unlikely to find too many professionals “railroading” candidates into changing.
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
Okay.
I’m not even addressing the issue of who pays.
And even the best psychiatrist in the world is still limited by what the patient tells them. And a deeply distressed person is likely to say anything to get their own way.
And with children having access to the internet, they’re exposed to all sorts of ideas, so that it’s virtually impossible nowadays to know how much of this behavior/feeling is caused by social contagion.
It wasn’t that long ago that we saw the phenomenon of “recovered memories”. Deeply distressed people under the guidance of therapists were “remembering” horrific abuse at the hands of family members and satanic cults. The mantra was “always affirm and never question”. Families were torn apart.
Then it was debunked.
See, this gender theory stuff is just that—theory. The studies are contradictory and inconclusive. There is no vast body of knowledge behind it in the way that the field of cardiology has.
People need to know these things.
I’m not even addressing the issue of who pays.
And even the best psychiatrist in the world is still limited by what the patient tells them. And a deeply distressed person is likely to say anything to get their own way.
And with children having access to the internet, they’re exposed to all sorts of ideas, so that it’s virtually impossible nowadays to know how much of this behavior/feeling is caused by social contagion.
It wasn’t that long ago that we saw the phenomenon of “recovered memories”. Deeply distressed people under the guidance of therapists were “remembering” horrific abuse at the hands of family members and satanic cults. The mantra was “always affirm and never question”. Families were torn apart.
Then it was debunked.
See, this gender theory stuff is just that—theory. The studies are contradictory and inconclusive. There is no vast body of knowledge behind it in the way that the field of cardiology has.
People need to know these things.
O
OraLabora
Guest
My point in bringing it up was not who pays, but because the state is paying, WPATH protocols must be followed.I’m not even addressing the issue of who pays.
If a person is distressed enough to go to that length, I would hope that a psychiatrist would take him or her seriously. Most seeking surgery are indeed in deep distress. Deep enough to contemplate or even attempt suicide. It’s not a lark.And a deeply distressed person is likely to say anything to get their own way.
Except that transgenderism is not a recent concept. It’s been around since before biblical times. The first surgeries were attempted in in the first half of the 20th century; the first known vaginoplasty was in 1931. Before that, gonadectomies.It wasn’t that long ago that we saw the phenomenon of “recovered memories”.
Transgenderism is well-documented, and has been recognized and even accepted in many cultures.
Are there bogus cases? No doubt. That’s why we have standards of care. Are they perfect? No. But the regret rate is not as high as some claim. Recall that those standards require someone to live full-time in the desired gender role. Not part-time, but full-time for at least one year. That is not easy unless you are truly committed. It means a legal name change, coming out to families, friends and your workplace, accepting the risk of job loss, and facing endless discrimination.
Last edited:
H
hvizsgyak
Guest
Ever since this mental illness (Body Integrity Dysphoria) came to my attention, I am totally convinced that the mind can make you believe and feel anything. I’m sorry to hear that your daughter has these feelings that she wants to be a boy but I feel that encouraging them is not the correct path. Kindly care for her and love her but steer her away from those thoughts. G-d made her a female and females are just as good as males. They are equal but slightly different. The mind needs to mature enough to accept the role G-d has given us in this life. It will come with time and experience. The experience to recognize the full beauty of being a female.
This Wikipedia Definition of BID is to let others know how powerful the mind can be in convincing us of one thing when something else is true.
Body integrity dysphoria ( BID , also referred to as body integrity identity disorder , amputee identity disorder and xenomelia , formerly called apotemnophilia ) is a disorder characterized by a desire to be disabled or discomfort with being able-bodied beginning in early adolescence and resulting in harmful consequences. BID appears to be related to somatoparaphrenia. People with this condition may refer to themselves as “transabled”.
BID is a rare, infrequently studied condition in which there is a mismatch between the mental body image and the physical body, characterized by an intense desire for amputation of a limb, usually a leg, or to become blind or deaf. The person sometimes has a sense of sexual arousal connected with the desire for loss of a limb or sense.
Some act out their desires, pretending they are amputees using prostheses and other tools to ease their desire to be one. Some people with BID have reported to the media or by interview over the telephone with researchers that they have resorted to self-amputation of a “superfluous” limb; for example, by allowing a train to run over it, or by damaging the limb so badly that surgeons will have to amputate it. However, the medical literature records few, if any, cases of actual self amputation.
To the extent that generalizations can be made, people with BID appear to start to wish for amputation when they are young, between 8 and 12 years old, and often knew a person with an amputated limb when they were children; however, people with BIID tend to seek treatment only when they are much older. People with BIID seem to be predominantly male, and while there is no evidence that sexual preference is relevant, there does seem to be a correlation with BIID and a person having gender dysphoria or a paraphilia; there appears to be a weak correlation with personality disorders. Family psychiatric history does not appear to be relevant, there does not appear to be any strong correlation with the site of the limb or limbs that the person wishes they did not have, nor with any past trauma to the undesired limb.
This Wikipedia Definition of BID is to let others know how powerful the mind can be in convincing us of one thing when something else is true.
Body integrity dysphoria ( BID , also referred to as body integrity identity disorder , amputee identity disorder and xenomelia , formerly called apotemnophilia ) is a disorder characterized by a desire to be disabled or discomfort with being able-bodied beginning in early adolescence and resulting in harmful consequences. BID appears to be related to somatoparaphrenia. People with this condition may refer to themselves as “transabled”.
BID is a rare, infrequently studied condition in which there is a mismatch between the mental body image and the physical body, characterized by an intense desire for amputation of a limb, usually a leg, or to become blind or deaf. The person sometimes has a sense of sexual arousal connected with the desire for loss of a limb or sense.
Some act out their desires, pretending they are amputees using prostheses and other tools to ease their desire to be one. Some people with BID have reported to the media or by interview over the telephone with researchers that they have resorted to self-amputation of a “superfluous” limb; for example, by allowing a train to run over it, or by damaging the limb so badly that surgeons will have to amputate it. However, the medical literature records few, if any, cases of actual self amputation.
To the extent that generalizations can be made, people with BID appear to start to wish for amputation when they are young, between 8 and 12 years old, and often knew a person with an amputated limb when they were children; however, people with BIID tend to seek treatment only when they are much older. People with BIID seem to be predominantly male, and while there is no evidence that sexual preference is relevant, there does seem to be a correlation with BIID and a person having gender dysphoria or a paraphilia; there appears to be a weak correlation with personality disorders. Family psychiatric history does not appear to be relevant, there does not appear to be any strong correlation with the site of the limb or limbs that the person wishes they did not have, nor with any past trauma to the undesired limb.
O
OraLabora
Guest
It’s the other way around she was born a boy and is in the process of transitioning to female. I will neither encourage nor discourage: she’s an adult (and a brilliant one at that, first-class honour’s, dean’s list and all that, headed for grad school in the fall), and free to make her own decisions. I will always be there to support her regardless of her choice. I won’t antagonize her either. I can say this, that since she came out we feel like we have our child back. Until we figured out what was wrong, we thought she was lost. We were deeply worried. Turns out she was too, worried we’d reject her. Of course we didn’t.Ever since this mental illness (Body Integrity Dysphoria) came to my attention, I am totally convinced that the mind can make you believe and feel anything. I’m sorry to hear that your daughter has these feelings that she wants to be a boy but I feel that encouraging them is not the correct path.
I prefer to stick with the conservative and well-established criteria for the disorder. BID is another issue, and our “feelings” about it are unfounded in science. There may be, as I have said, some organic bases for the condition. But my feelings have nothing to do with it. My background is in the physical sciences, and I prefer to keep it on a scientific level unless it is proven otherwise.
Last edited:
H
hvizsgyak
Guest
I respect your wishes. G-d bless and good night.
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
WPATH is not without its biases.
There’s extremely little written about anything even close to our nowadays phenomenon of transgenderism in the western world before the 1900s
And if you want to go back to the surgery argument, both of us were alive back when lobotomies were still standard of care.
One of the arguments for it was along the lines of “but they were so distressed before! They were a danger to themselves and other people! Look how calm they are now! I guess YOU just want people to suffer.”
If you look at the history of medicine, psychiatry and anything to do with reproductive medicine, have been highly experimental, and we’ve seen time and time again practitioners very willing to use human beings as Guinea Pigs.
There’s extremely little written about anything even close to our nowadays phenomenon of transgenderism in the western world before the 1900s
And if you want to go back to the surgery argument, both of us were alive back when lobotomies were still standard of care.
One of the arguments for it was along the lines of “but they were so distressed before! They were a danger to themselves and other people! Look how calm they are now! I guess YOU just want people to suffer.”
If you look at the history of medicine, psychiatry and anything to do with reproductive medicine, have been highly experimental, and we’ve seen time and time again practitioners very willing to use human beings as Guinea Pigs.
O
OraLabora
Guest
Medicine, like all other fields, progresses. There were some brutal cancer therapies too, that have eased up over time. Now we have therapies that can preserve diseased limbs or organs in some instances. That does not mean a mastectomy was wrong 30 years ago when today a lumpectomy combined with chemo- and radiation-therapy can be just as, if not more, curative and far less mutilating. That does not mean it was wrong to conduct mastectomies at the time when that was the standard of care. If we withhold treatments in anticipation of something better that is perhaps decades away, a lot of people will die uselessly. That includes transgendered who will feel pushed toward suicide.And if you want to go back to the surgery argument, both of us were alive back when lobotomies were still standard of care.
The point is to try to strive the best care we have available. If some day medicine and psychiatry develop a better and less invasive treatment for transgenderism, such as a medication or some other treatment, I’ll be the first to cheer.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.