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Kaninchen
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It’s really a question of just how much the other spouse is prepared to put up with, of course.
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SanguineRose
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Your experience with secular society and mine seem really different. I do know individuals who are very hostile to religion, but in my experience that’s nowhere near a majority of secular people and there are plenty of religious people who are really hostile to opposing points of view as well. Honestly, I blame politics instead of religion for that one and it’s a shame because I think that getting anything involved in partisan politics makes coming up with a rational solution to the problem that much more difficult. I don’t think secular society is as monolithic and homogeneous as much of Christianity seems to be on a number of topics, but maybe they both seem monolithic from the outside looking in, I don’t know.
But anyway, I don’t want to get off on a tangent about all that stuff. I just want my kid to be able to make his own decision about religion or lack of religion without feeling guilty about leaving the church later on if that’s what he decides or as if someone is going to be disappointed in him for his choice of religion and I don’t think baptizing him now is really in his best interest in that respect. If he still wants to be part of his dad’s religion when he’s a little older, then we can look into getting him baptized and whatever else needs to happen.
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SecretCatholic
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I don’t think that most people are outright hostile to religion, but secular society is certainly pushing that view more and more. What happens is that most people are “moderate” on most issues, but the media misrepresents the public’s true position by putting on extremists on both sides. But little by little the media actually moves the public’s view of things and people do become more extreme in their views. Most Catholics I know are certainly not hostile to other viewpoints and frankly, are rather liberal within the faith on some of the same issues you mentioned.
I don’t think secular society is exactly homogenous. But we must speak in general terms if we are to speak of society’s values at all. There is a wide range of legitimate views within Catholicism, and then there are a wide range of non-Catholic views that too many Catholics subscribe to.
I don’t think most Catholics feel much guilt about leaving the church. There are many Catholic who just stop going to mass. If you’re just down on religion in general, I understand. But if you’re going to give any “organized religion” a chance, I think Catholicism is right up there in terms of being reasonable (lots of philosophy and theology for what Catholics believe, not just “because God says so”) and flexible (as opposed to fundamentalist beliefs).
But as another poster said, I think its encouraging that you don’t take ceremonies, including Baptism, trivially. Way too many Catholics do. I think it shows integrity that you take it seriously.
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BettyBoop416
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But remember, the OP does not believe in God. Consequently, sin has no meaning for her. She is also unlikely to be moved by verses from scripture or by assertions that “God must always come first.”
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runningdude
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What matters is that she understands where her husband is coming from.
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SanguineRose
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I’m something like halfway through Rome Sweet Home (kiddo has decided to be good today and it being a holiday, I’ve had some time to read) and it’s interesting, I can relate to the wife as dude sounds a lot like my husband. And I suppose I haven’t really considered how my husband is having trouble and may feel like he’s been displaced from aspects of our life as well. From his perspective, he had to “come out” and admit that he’s been wrong about a lot of things all this time a few months ago, when he’s been an adamant and semi-professional atheist for years, which I’m sure has been a little bit of a nightmare for him, plus he’s lost several friends and has been getting a lot of criticism from others, and I’m sure he’s worried about our marriage breaking up as well. I feel more sorry for him than mad, now, I guess. 
On that note, I wonder if someone could recommend some reading material or stories of mixed atheist/Catholic marriages. Rome Sweet Home has been helpful and I’m going to finish it, but the couple in question started out as Christian, so they already had a lot of share beliefs and right now it doesn’t seem like my husband and I agree on anything. I don’t really want to talk to him about his beliefs right at this particular time because I know he would take any interest in learning about Catholicism as a hope that I might convert and I’m not going to so I don’t want to get his hopes up, and also honestly I don’t trust his objectivity anymore. Which is exactly what he’s afraid of now that he’s “switched sides”, come to think of it, so I don’t want to make it worse for him by hearing that from me. He’s always been very good at convincing people of things regardless of the position and I want to evaluate the situation myself and talk to him about it when I have a better understanding and can approach it on more equal footing.
On that note, I wonder if someone could recommend some reading material or stories of mixed atheist/Catholic marriages. Rome Sweet Home has been helpful and I’m going to finish it, but the couple in question started out as Christian, so they already had a lot of share beliefs and right now it doesn’t seem like my husband and I agree on anything. I don’t really want to talk to him about his beliefs right at this particular time because I know he would take any interest in learning about Catholicism as a hope that I might convert and I’m not going to so I don’t want to get his hopes up, and also honestly I don’t trust his objectivity anymore. Which is exactly what he’s afraid of now that he’s “switched sides”, come to think of it, so I don’t want to make it worse for him by hearing that from me. He’s always been very good at convincing people of things regardless of the position and I want to evaluate the situation myself and talk to him about it when I have a better understanding and can approach it on more equal footing.
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PaulGH
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OK, that makes sense. I’m with your husband, because of how important baptism is, but your position makes sense, and I can’t really argue with it.
This is not quite what you asked for, but you might try reading “Something Other Than God” by Jennifer Fulwiler. She started as an atheist, while her husband started as a non-practicing (but definitely believing) Christian. They both ended up Catholic. Again, it’s not the same as your situation (an atheist married to a recent Catholic convert), but I would guess that there are some parallels.
I think you also mentioned that one of your parents was an Orthodox Jew. If that’s right (or even if it’s not), you might be interested in “Honey from the Rock: Sixteen Jews Find the Sweetness of Christ” by Roy Schoeman. Roy Schoeman was a secular, non-practicing Jew who became Catholic, and his story is one of the 16 stories in the book. I have heard his conversion story (as an audio download of a talk he gave), and it is very powerful. I haven’t read the version of his story that is in the book, but I assume it follows the same basic facts as the talk I heard. The book also contains 15 other Jewish-to-Catholic conversion stories, including “some who came from secularized, liberal or even atheistic backgrounds.” So there might be some stories in here that you could identify with.
I know that you would probably rather have a book that tells the story of a husband who became Catholic while the wife remained atheist. I would recommend something like that if I could, but at the moment I can’t think of a good book that fits that description. (There probably is one, but maybe one that I’m not familiar with.)
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SanguineRose
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I’ll look into those, thanks for the recommend. I don’t need something that’s like really specific to my situation, I’m just interested in how other people deal with this kind of thing in general and possibly a better understanding of what my husband is experiencing having made a pretty radical shift from solid atheist back to Catholicism.
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CathConvert2013
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We have a program at our church for kids age 4 or 5 through probably 5th grade based on Montessori. Kids didn’t have to be baptized in order to participate. It was a place to learn about the faith and then choose to participate if one felt led to. I made it clear when we joined the classes that my husband was not willing to “force” baptism or even Christianity on them. I just had to have somewhere for them to go while I studied and attended mass. 6 months later they were baptized at my request after I completed RCIA and entered the Church. Some kids wait much longer. I think there was a 15yo in their mostly 2nd grade First Holy Communion class. An entire family of children were baptized this past Easter, from 2nd/3rd grade through age 15. When I came into the Church, a fellow adult convert had never been baptized and she was at least 60. There is no rush for your baby to be baptized.
As for mixed marriages, my husband is still extremely skeptical about the Church and even Christianity but keeps it to himself. I think we may have some issues when it comes to the teenage years. He’ll be handing out bcp and condoms while I attempt to teach them chastity. I’ve tried to explain why this and why that but I fail. I need to read and study more. I wish there was a year round RCIA class! I’m hoping that one day he will join us fully in the Church, but I have to accept that he may not.
As for mixed marriages, my husband is still extremely skeptical about the Church and even Christianity but keeps it to himself. I think we may have some issues when it comes to the teenage years. He’ll be handing out bcp and condoms while I attempt to teach them chastity. I’ve tried to explain why this and why that but I fail. I need to read and study more. I wish there was a year round RCIA class! I’m hoping that one day he will join us fully in the Church, but I have to accept that he may not.
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cheese_sdc
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I was in a similar situation, but I was one that lost my faith - I was a hardcore Catholic at the time we were married - taught CCD, was in the choir, very active in the parish life.
Until about 9 years into the marriage, I deconverted and started attending services at the local Unitarian Universalist Church. However, I made the decision to “walk softly” in regards to my conversion and family. It killed me to listen to them talk about bible stories and saints lives, but I sucked it up. Where I could talk about good things in Christianity and Catholicism, I would.
But. I knew I was the one that changed - the unstated agreement at the time of our marriage was that I would remain Catholic. So I just sucked it up and went on. It’d be nice if your partner did the same for your family.
'Course, now we’re separated and just waiting on the paperwork to clear for the divorce, so I may not be the best one to listen to.
Until about 9 years into the marriage, I deconverted and started attending services at the local Unitarian Universalist Church. However, I made the decision to “walk softly” in regards to my conversion and family. It killed me to listen to them talk about bible stories and saints lives, but I sucked it up. Where I could talk about good things in Christianity and Catholicism, I would.
But. I knew I was the one that changed - the unstated agreement at the time of our marriage was that I would remain Catholic. So I just sucked it up and went on. It’d be nice if your partner did the same for your family.
'Course, now we’re separated and just waiting on the paperwork to clear for the divorce, so I may not be the best one to listen to.
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SanguineRose
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Sorry to hear about you and your husband.I was in a similar situation, but I was one that lost my faith - I was a hardcore Catholic at the time we were married - taught CCD, was in the choir, very active in the parish life.
Until about 9 years into the marriage, I deconverted and started attending services at the local Unitarian Universalist Church. However, I made the decision to “walk softly” in regards to my conversion and family. It killed me to listen to them talk about bible stories and saints lives, but I sucked it up. Where I could talk about good things in Christianity and Catholicism, I would.
But. I knew I was the one that changed - the unstated agreement at the time of our marriage was that I would remain Catholic. So I just sucked it up and went on. It’d be nice if your partner did the same for your family.
'Course, now we’re separated and just waiting on the paperwork to clear for the divorce, so I may not be the best one to listen to.
Hope everything works out for the best in the long run.I am a little worried that if I don’t play ball, that it might get to the point eventually where he might just decide to leave me for someone less problematic, but I know that’s probably irrational and he’s worried about the same thing, though.
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cheese_sdc
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I am the husband.Sorry to hear about you and your husband.
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PaulGH
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He wouldn’t be following the Catholic faith that he has embraced if he did that. Not to say that that couldn’t happen, but if he is serious about his conversion, then he ought to be more committed to you and to making the marriage work, not less.
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SanguineRose
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Oh!I am the husband.
Sorry, I could have swore I read some pronouns in there.So, some questions:
What does one wear to mass? Is there a difference between what is appropriate to wear to an evening mass and a morning mass? Apparently Saturday evening mass is an option, so I’m pushing for that one this week as the morning mass happens around the time my son is usually nap fighting.
I read something about RCIA and it looks like my husband’s church has those classes in the fall. Is it possible to attend RCIA just for the information even if you don’t want to convert?
Also, someone mentioned something earlier that I’ve been thinking about. So, like I mentioned, my husband said the same thing some of you guys have been saying about just asking God if he’s real and expecting some sort of answer, so I did to make him happy. But, I think it’s too easy to be emotionally influenced and jump at anything that seems like it might be a “sign”, which is why I asked for something small, mildly unusual, and specific as a sign. I don’t really expect anything to happen, but I’ll keep an open mind on it. Only someone in the thread said that putting God on the spot may not be the best approach. So, how is one supposed to know that God is communicating with you then and that it’s not just your mind playing tricks on you?
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Kal2012
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Clothing - business casual would work best at either.
Yes - you can got to RCIA just to learn more about the faith. RCIA is about getting answers and learning more about the church. If you go, don’t feel pressured to convert. In fact, the role of the teacher is to make someone think seriously about why they are converting and help them realize that it’s a serious commitment to do. The DRE (director of religious ed) who taught my RCIA class always said, you don’t have to convert at the end of the class.
I can’t speak for others on the “God communicating to me” topic, but for myself, there’s a sense of clarity and fullness in my heart.
I also don’t believe in accidents or coincidences.
I’d argue that what some people call instinct is really the Holy Spirit guiding us in our daily lives.
I’m hoping others will weigh in on this topic because I don’t really know how to describe God talking to me. For each person, it’s different. However, I know Him when he communicates to me.
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Prodigal_Son
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SanguineRose,
You might be interested in the story of one of the foremost academic philosophers of the last 50 years, Peter Van Inwagen. He was an atheist most of his life and converted – he also talks specifically about “telling God to show himself”, as you’ve mentioned above.
His conversion, needless to say, really pissed a lot of atheists off.
informationphilosopher.com/solutions/philosophers/vaninwagen/quam_dilecta.html
You might be interested in the story of one of the foremost academic philosophers of the last 50 years, Peter Van Inwagen. He was an atheist most of his life and converted – he also talks specifically about “telling God to show himself”, as you’ve mentioned above.
His conversion, needless to say, really pissed a lot of atheists off.
informationphilosopher.com/solutions/philosophers/vaninwagen/quam_dilecta.html
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SecretCatholic
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In the end, unless you have some sort of clear private revelation or apparition, it’s all a matter of faith. Why? I don’t know. As an agnostic, I think you can fairly conclude that its just a bunch of hooey. That’s not the only valid explanation though, of course. I only know that generally you will not find God unless you are looking for him. The problem is that those who are already inclined to believe in God will believe in him no matter what. And those not inclined towards believing in God will not genuinely seek him.- This means daily, honest prayer for a long time, among other things.
I don’t think its wrong to ask God for proof. Yes, the Bible says we should not “test” him, but it also says that we can ask him for things. “Testing” him might be something like saying “Well, if God exists he will do this or that.” in public. All of a sudden, God becomes this magician at your command. That’s ridiculous and wrong. But a private request? No, I see nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, God has no obligation to respond in the manner in which you have requested. So you have to keep that in mind.
But the request is fine, as long as you understand that it is a request, not a command. Maybe you should keep this private, between you and God. The forum does not have to weigh in upon your own private relationship with God. We can comment on the general qualities of God and about his commandments, but not your private relationship, unless it goes contrary to his public revelations, in which case, it will not be God (God will never tell you to go kill a bunch of people, for example.)
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frizzgrig
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You wear clothes. Seriously - anything you would wear out to any social event is fine. There are some who get caught up in appearances but I have seen everything from a suit/dress, bikers in leather and chains to T-shirts, shorts, and flip flops.Oh!
So, some questions:
What does one wear to mass? Is there a difference between what is appropriate to wear to an evening mass and a morning mass? Apparently Saturday evening mass is an option, so I’m pushing for that one this week as the morning mass happens around the time my son is usually nap fighting.
Absolutely! Some parishes have inquires classes, some don’t. Attending RCIA is a great way to learn about what being Catholic is about. You should be sure to discuss your intention is to learn about Catholicism, not necessarily to convert, when you talk to the person in charge of the RCIA.
God speaks in many ways - the little things and the big ones. You might try reading Saint Thérèse of Lisieux’s “The Story of a Soul.”
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PaulGH
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Yes, but the quality of RCIA programs varies greatly. So if you decided to attend RCIA, I would recommend that you supplement what you are learning there with reading one or more good books about the Catholic faith. There are many good books that you could choose. One that I would recommend is Catholicism Pure and Simple by Fr. Dwight Longenecker.
This is a difficult question that I don’t have an easy answer for. But I too would caution against putting God on the spot – i.e., saying “I will believe if you do this one specific thing.”
Finally, I think it is great that you are open to learning more about the Catholic faith!
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AverageJoe33
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@SanguineRose
Ive just gone through this discussion including all youve relayed to us. As an outsider looking in you and your husband’s relationship is amazing and inspiring to me. Keep up that communication and keep focus on that amazing love you both have for one another and the beautiful baby that was the result of such love. The fact that a man that was so strongly opposed to everything God in the past would toss all of that aside and get down on his knees before what he opposed his whole life for YOU and your BABY is a form of the greatest love that us as Catholics vision God to be. We see God as love in its purest form because that is what or who we believe love comes from. What he did for you I would believe is in fact that love in its purest form. Because your husband felt this love in its purest form during this action of getting on his knees in the manner in which he did so.I believe that THIS sensation/feeling is what transformed your husband, it is so powerful it can not be denied. That is my personal “proof” of the God Catholics believe in and maybe one day that will also be the “proof” that you need. Thank you for sharing your inspiring story and I pray with all of my heart for all three of you. Stay in love.
Ive just gone through this discussion including all youve relayed to us. As an outsider looking in you and your husband’s relationship is amazing and inspiring to me. Keep up that communication and keep focus on that amazing love you both have for one another and the beautiful baby that was the result of such love. The fact that a man that was so strongly opposed to everything God in the past would toss all of that aside and get down on his knees before what he opposed his whole life for YOU and your BABY is a form of the greatest love that us as Catholics vision God to be. We see God as love in its purest form because that is what or who we believe love comes from. What he did for you I would believe is in fact that love in its purest form. Because your husband felt this love in its purest form during this action of getting on his knees in the manner in which he did so.I believe that THIS sensation/feeling is what transformed your husband, it is so powerful it can not be denied. That is my personal “proof” of the God Catholics believe in and maybe one day that will also be the “proof” that you need. Thank you for sharing your inspiring story and I pray with all of my heart for all three of you. Stay in love.
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