Catholic identity crisis

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Better to answer with some half-truths then? If someone asks a question, then they deserve to be respected by giving them an honest answer.

Perhaps the OP has had his question answered and has no more need to ask further?

No…perhaps better not to jump in using ‘truth’ as a club when people have genuine doubts or concerns.

Nobody asked questions. Nobody asked for further expansion. This is how people are driven from the church and as of now I cannot say I blame them.

 

[Brendan_64]

No…perhaps better not to jump in using ‘truth’ as a club when people have genuine doubts or concerns.

Nobody asked questions. Nobody asked for further expansion. This is how people are driven from the church and as of now I cannot say I blame them.

Do I sense you have an axe to grind with the Church?

Are you perhaps a lapsed Catholic yourself?

 

[InNomineDomini]

What do you say?

Daisy, it sounds as if a lot of your thinking on this subject has to do with your own personal spiritual life. You are not experiencing things in a way which you would like, and you are looking around to see if there is some other way to experience those things.

The first thing to keep in mind, is that being a “living saint” is not about our own desires, since holiness is to live in love. To be such a saint, is to be given the graces by God that cause a person to arrive at that particular state of holiness.

But such graces, of course, are a gift from Him. They are not the result of desiring them, but the result of cooperating with simpler, smaller graces, ever more closely following His will, ever more clearly being conformed to Christ.

We will not force God to conform ourselves to our own image of what we think we should be like when we speak of holiness. We must humble ourselves, or He will resist us, and such desires for holiness do not come from love of Him and obedience to His will, but out of pride and self-love.

Now, there is another issue here, and that is your thinking that you will leave the Church for other pastures if you feel as if those pastures have sheep who bah in the way that you would like to bah. This is where apologetics comes in, and you are on a wonderful site that deals with this. Separate the issue of Catholic spirituality from the issue of whether or not the Catholic Church is built upon truth.

Finally, there is a poster in this thread who is trying to shame us Catholics because we speak of truth, but I will say in response to them that truth is light, and those who desire darkness naturally flee the light. It is therefore no surprise when people leave the Church for reasons that, so very often, amount to choosing behaviors in their lives which the Church (o! that blessed relic of yesteryear) continues to insist is immoral. It is no further surprise when they defend this thinking by those wonderful lines: the only real religious truth is that there is no real religious truth, and that’s a truth I can live my life by.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Do I sense you have an axe to grind with the Church?

Are you perhaps a lapsed Catholic yourself?

The OP still hasn’t returned.

Bullying via Scripture is still bullying.

 

[ynotzap]

Dear brother Kenshin:

I have to agree with you about religious bullying. I’m a Catholic and unknown to myself I was a bully to my kids, and to my fellow workers. I took my God given faith for granted, and I expected for those that didn"t have the faith, the same as I expected from myself. I didn’t realize that I was blessed. God had to show me through some very painful experiences that this was true. Once I was confirmed in this truth my whole attitude changed from one of condemnation to one of understanding and compassion. I learned you can’t give what you don’t have, and I understand if one is not blessed with the Faith how can he respond if he doesn’t know. An encounter with Jesus Christ is how we receive the FAith, and it is personal and supernatural, the Grace of conversion. I became very judgemental when I saw people doing what I knew was morally wrong, and I expected them to agree with my reasoning. I went as high as the Department of Justice with my grievances only to suffer a break-down, because I was not fighting people, but, as God manifested to me, through my faith, Powers and principalities, evil spirits. and without Jesus I was doomed to fail. And I did it in grand style. Now I try my hardest to get this truth across to my brothers. Jesus is the real Savior of all men, and the only one. If I am not received, and I believe that happens often, I accept, and I move on.

 

[babylonfalling]

I wonder if Francis or Benedict would proclaim that ‘God is Catholic.’

Who proclaimed that “God is Catholic”

 

[ynotzap]

FWIW

Quoting St.Pacianus, the Bishop of Barcelona in the fourth century "Christian is my name, Catholic is my surname. And I say "Christ first and above all, then whole truth and univerality(Catholic)

 

[Brendan_64]

The OP still hasn’t returned.

Bullying via Scripture is still bullying.

Who is bullying? Who is being bullied?

All there is on this thread is discussion and an explanation of the teachings of the Church, as understood by the posters on here. I see no bullying on this thread.

If you are going to throw words like “bullying” around then you should at least have the decency to specify against whom you make this allegation. So who is it that you accuse of bullying?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

It’s just that I don’t believe the Ray Comfort-type approach can really be called evangelization, much less addressing anyone’s (like the OP’s) genuine concerns. I’ve done enough of it it myself in the past.

Take time to talk to people. Ask them questions before clubbing them with quotes.

 

[Brendan_64]

It’s just that I don’t believe the Ray Comfort-type approach can really be called evangelization, much less addressing anyone’s (like the OP’s) genuine concerns. I’ve done enough of it it myself in the past.

Take time to talk to people. Ask them questions before clubbing them with quotes.

So despite making an alegation of bullying, you refuse to specify who it is you are accusing?

Failure to specify an individual(s) reduces the term to nothing more than a word to bandy around when you have an axe to grind.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Indeed I feel the Catholic suffering-“saint image” of Christ in the middleages, and the one that is shown me through people like Heidi Haker are two different views of God.
I ask myself, when Heidi Baker hears so much from Jesus, which is truly also evident from the fruits in her life, then why does he not call her to join the catholic Church? She is more an example than any catholic I have met, and Jesus does not tell her she needs the Eucharist… I ask myself why?

It might sound like a stupid question, but please, I would like to hear from people who have also experienced and read books about whats going on within other churches. Can anyone relate to my questions? I am not trying to provoke at all… Oh it would be much easier if the power and love of God was much less alive among “them” than within our circles… but it seems the opposite.

What do you say?

I don’t know who Heidi Baker is, but I think the saints are a sure proof in showing how the love of God is still very much alive, or in fact is the most alive, in the Catholic Church. The Church is still doing the most charitable work in the world, and mostly from people we have never heard of too.

 

[DaisyNJesus]

I don’t know who Heidi Baker is, but I think the saints are a sure proof in showing how the love of God is still very much alive, or in fact is the most alive, in the Catholic Church. The Church is still doing the most charitable work in the world, and mostly from people we have never heard of too.

Dear everybody,

I am so sorry I could not respond.
I feel old when it comes to technical matters, because I didn’t know how to respond. Now I have downloaded a whole new browser, and suddenly it works

Thank you for all your answers. I just want to say I did read all the replies and I will try to answer tomorrow.

 

[Brendan_64]

I don’t know who Heidi Baker is, but I think the saints are a sure proof in showing how the love of God is still very much alive, or in fact is the most alive, in the Catholic Church. The Church is still doing the most charitable work in the world, and mostly from people we have never heard of too.

Indeed. The Church is not based on high profile individuals (no matter how much good work they do) it is founded on Our Lord as the Church that He set up on Earth. That the Church carries out more charitable work in this world than any other organisation is testament to the love She shows towards mankind.

 

[DaisyNJesus]

I say God must be the center of your life and if you think that is not Catholic you are mistaken. All the songs and prayers and learning the lives of the saints is not taking us away from God, but through them HE is drawing us closer to HIMSELF!

I will pray for you and ask for strength, faith, peace, hope and love for you, in the name of Jesus, Our Lord!

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen.

Petra,

I do not need a monolog-like two line admonition from you. Do you really think that you have recognized the validity of my feelings in any way by such a “you are mistaken!” comment. I wonder why did you even comment at all?
Try reading my post again, if you really want to offer some advice. Clearly I am not where you are at.

Everyone

I beg your pardon, but you are not writing to some teenager who have not got a clue. I have read the Bible, the Catechism, many of the most important documents of the Church (and I found them awesome), I have read church fathers, desert fathers, numorous apologetic books, numerous books and movies on the lives of the saints. I understand the teachings of the Church. I understand the whole “circle argument” about church authority, apostolic succession, papal infallibility, the sacraments, the ecclesiology and covenant theology of the church. I found so much of what I read so awesome and so true.

And yet I have the feeling of estrangement that ever comes back to me, sometimes more, sometimes less.
I converted because of the sacraments, and I have experienced wonders with them.
Yet there are things that in my heart of hearts do not seem right, however long I have tried to understand, and I am so tired of the accept of this situation.

For me, I have this principle: The church is to be represented by the best Catholics. Now when I read the stories about saints I often feel estranged. The theology of suffering and atonement (self inflicted suffering also) it seems so unlike the spirit of the Gospels, and how I see what Jesus did and said. Jesus told us to imitate him and do what he did. When I read the saints now, I see a lot of strange things that I do not see in the Gospels.
I met good Catholics. And I admire many of them, but mostly in the human strength they show when they make big sacrifices etc, even in areas where I think its not reasonable to do so. I admire these people for their intellect and honesty and conviction that what they believe is right.

But on the other hand, I find them to be often clericalistic, elitist in their thinking, dry intellectualists, with a faith which is surely deep but which is lacking outward manifestations like joy, fellowship, healings etc…
Sometimes I must even think of the Scribes and Pharisees. They had all the authority but they lay burdens on the shoulders of others. When Jesus came he said: The people were poor and unedified like sheep without shepherds.

When I read the Gospels I see a Lord who preached about the Kingdom and manifested it through his actions. He was against the emtiness and moralistic approach of the pharisees, who were of the right rabbinical school but had no true glory and power of the Holy Spirit.

I see also a kind of social control, even on CAF, which I do not like. Its menacing. The funny thing is I used to be like that also. Someone would utter some doubt on Church teaching and I would say: “Should you be Catholic, do you really belong here?” The immensity of the spiritual pride! And that is what I see even on this thread.

That is all my experience. It does not have to be yours. I can also call it my “feeling”. But if I do that, you will say: it does not matter about feelings. Well imagine any community that can function if people do not care about each others feelings. Its not a good place.

Petra
I do not need to go through saints to get to Jesus. He has already gotten to me. In fact that is the first thing he did. He seized me and made me fall in love with him. Now from the Word of God I know that it was the Holy Spirit who did this.
After that event, Jesus could introduce me to the saints - those that live and those that have passed on. Only in him and through him can we understand what a human being is anyway.

 

[DaisyNJesus]

Our Faith is not about what we get out of it. It is not about how it makes us feel. It is not about us wanting some sort of personal revealation fron Jesus. It is not about us needing a sense of belonging. All these wants and desires are about us and what we want.

Our Faith is about God and what we can give to Him, and for that we ought to expect nothing in return.

Christ suffered for us and gave all he could give, and he did this unconditionally. Why should we expect to receive a ‘feel good’ factor simply because we honour and worship Him?

You are very much oversimplifying, or you would not be able to write such a superficial answer.
If your spouse tells you: “I feel odd in our marriage, I often do not understand what you do, I often do not understand your priorities and it makes me feel like I am at the wrong place”, would you say: “It is not about what you feel”? I hope not.

No human community can exist with people telling one another their feelings and experiences do not matter.
The Bible also tells us how we should love one another and be like a family.
You want to make this about me and God, but my problem is not with sweet Jesus but the credibility of the church community. And by that I mean, the way we have church, what fruits we show of our faith, what our community is really like, and whether we actually do the things that Jesus told his disciples and apostles to do.

This is my experience:
I come into a Catholic church. Everyone looks like they are bored. They are a bunch of strangers huddled in their coats since there is no money to heat up the place, since no one wants to pay the small tax to the church, let alone tithe. The only time I hear from the bishop personally is when I get a letter scolding us all because we do not pay this money. I get a ten minute sermon on being kind and not gossiping (I read also on CAF that the preaching is the least important thing at a Catholic mass, which I find to be a most important part personally). Afterwards I talk to my priest about the sermons, I try to gently encourage him to preach the Gospel. He says, he will have none of the fire and brimstone and that I am bad for suggesting such a thing. I leave the place feeling humiliated and misunderstood. I go to a charismatic meeting where I hear powerful preaching, people are happily praising God, a whole amount of money is collected for the church and the missionary work in the parish and I see a number of healings taking place in front of my eyes, I even hear words of prophesy. I meet people who greet me, ask me if I want to join their groups. All in all the people seem full of energy. The pastors take personal interest, I am even encouraged and trusted to speak infront of the congregation. As I go there regularly, I notice the youth work is good. Lots of young people come to the church, lots of them find their spouse at a reasonable age, in their youth groups. I go to my catholic parish priest, tell him of the healings I have seen and he says its all emotionalism and crazy stuff. He leaves me standing there like a bad school girl. I go to my Catholic friends. Half of them are in a crisis about the cold atmosphere in the Church, the rules they must follow in order to be right with God. The other half - of those attending - are into some wierd private apparitions. They are gathering blankets and food for the last days of tribulation, and they believe that the apparitions are very real and most important. I join this group because they take their faith seriously, but I soon find myself questioning the deity presented in their odd private revelations. I then meet a bunch of lovely friendly university students who practice their faith dilligently. I love to be with them because of our shared values and level of education. But I sense I am not growing. The dry intellectualism and philosophy makes me thirrsty for the supernatural, the sweetness, the manifestations of Jesus love for us, which I know the “other side” is so full of. Jesus’ name is hardly mentioned, some of them even find it odd if we should pray together. People pray alone and have all the right thoughts, and struggle with their sins and shame. When someone has pain or illness no one goes to them to pray hands on for their healing, like I have seen so much among my Pentecostal friends ( even cancer and depression was healed). When I experience suffering I am told by friends and pious books to “offer it up” and suffer for others, because the one verse in the Bible where Paul talks of “the lack in Christ’s suffering” is the only verse that is stressed (not the 99 procent where “Jesus healed them all”). I start getting confused. On what side is God on anyway, since the Catholics say he gives great (physical) suffering to those who are most holy and close to him, While at the same time I see most powerful lives on the Evangelical side: lay married people who, without wondering much about ascetisim, celibacy and holiness, look at Jesus, praise him, are healthy and pray for people who also get healthy. These speak and act in ways I understand. I start to wonder if any of us, in my Catholic parish, would notice if the Holy Spirit left the Catholic congregation. I wonder why I should call a man “father” who has personally done nothing to earn my trust. I want to be with the Pentecostalist and have what they have, which is an intimacy with the Jesus I see in the Gospels, and the fruits that their faith brings.

So what I feel is all this. You can belittle it. But I frakly believe that Jesus would not belittle anyone’s feelings and experiences.

 

[DaisyNJesus]

Not strictly correct, the Orthodox Church also has Jesus in the Eucharist, but Protestant denominations cannot have Christ in the Eucharist as they do not have valid apostolic succession.

The Catholic Church is the on true Church founded by Christ Himself when He was on Earth as a man. He founded His Church on Peter and where Peter is (or his successor) the Church is. ‘Churches’ created by men are not valid Churches. They have been founded on heresy and as an act of schism from the one true Church. That there are thousands of different Protestant denominations now is testament to the fact that Protestantism is schismatic by nature.

Do you want a denomination that is man-made or a Church that was established by Christ Himself?

The ‘fee-good’ factor is irrelevant, we do not belong to the Church in order to feel personally, fulfilled, we belong to the Church because that is where God is. God isn’t there because we feel Him to be there, God is there because He IS there.

I want both. But you see, you write as though you could seperate “church” and “people”. the people whom you encounter in your parish, they are your immediate church. If you feel no connection to their style of worship, the way they interact etc, their prioritees when it comes to devotions and Scripture and what makes out an authentic church community life, then you will eventually feel very lonely.

In the beginning I met Jesus - outside of the Catholic Church. Since then, wherever I meet people who love him, I felt one with them.

I don’t know what will happen in the future. What I imagine now is that I will go to the Catholic Church for Eucharist and confession, but most other important things that belong in a faith life, I will find elsewhere. So the answer is: BOTH. You can say that the Pentecostal congregation that I joined was man made. Alright, no problem. I experienced the Holy Spirit so strongly there and had inspiration for a life time. So whatever foundation their church had, I do believe Christ was very much present in ways I have not experienced in any Catholic parish.

You say “we do not”. But in fact, yes, I do. I am a human of flesh and blood. And I do indeed also look to be edified. Same when a person marries: he wants to give himself, but also to receive.
Read the Gospels and you will see that Jesus was not just sitting on a throne waiting to be adored… he served, he saw the REAL needs of REAL people, he tended to a flock that had been neglected, he healed them -whether they were holy or not, gave them food, he cast out demons, he SHOWED us kingdom life, and he preached it vividly.

You can have church the way you want it, but do not tell me there is absolutely nothing in it for you. That you serve God completely selflessly and don’t need anything or anybody other than the simple naked knowlegde of his existence. You may have that, but I need more and I am not ashamed to say that.

 

[DaisyNJesus]

And my point is, if we are not to drive people away, it’s unproductive to use a why-because argument.

Some people have legitimate concerns that deserve multi-dimensional answers.

Thank you brother.
I appreciate it. Sometimes people are so deep within that system of thought, that they believe other people are just obstinate who don’t see reality the same way they do.

I think what certain folkes need is to learn to say: “I see what you experienced, and indeed I acknowlegde and understand your feelings and your experiences, but here is mine and here is what I have concluded”.

I don’t think people even notice how many outright rude and anti-protestant things that are being said in these fora. And you are right: Being beaten in the head with some remark: “believe as I or you are just wrong and your soul is in danger” will only cause a person - me - to feel even more estranged from the Church.

 

[DaisyNJesus]

I’m not familiar with Heidi Baker, but if she purports to raise people from the dead, I would not walk away from her. I would run.

I recall listening to a woman once, who had gone in with one of these evangelical/mystical groups. She was very persuaded of her power to effect miracles, almost casually, through her prayer. But, she cautioned, “you have to be careful what you pray for, because it can turn out bad…” She had some examples.

I was not totally persuaded that the sect she joined was diabolical in a direct or intentionally way, but most definitely there was an unholy influence threading through that belief system. One thing we know for certain from the Bible. After the fall, God placed an angel with a sword of flame at the gate of Eden. We cannot, in this life, return. Ours is a second way now. Our sin was and is willfulness. Our remedy is humility and submission to God’s will.

Sometimes we do run into this group within the Church, or that. Sometimes we understand their practices and/or disciplines and sometimes we don’t. Sometimes the way some Catholics are is culturally-influenced. My Irish forbears were rather grim in their approach to their religion; steadfast but a bit grim. But they were in other ways too. My Italian forbears, on the other hand, were joyous and happy about it all. Even sin was different to them. Yes, they knew it, faced it, regretted it, repented. But having confessed, it was all like Belloc’s description:

“Wherever the Catholic sun does shine,
There’s music, laughter and good red wine,
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benidicamus Domino.”

So you caution me that Heidi Baker might be under diabolic influence because she is doing all the things that Jesus told the disciples to do.
That is really intersting

Should I not rather run from those who believe there is no power in God’s Word?

try to read Matthew 9: 34 to 10: 9.

It ends like this: “Jesus said, preach that the Kingdom of Heaven has come near. Heal the sick, RAISE THE DEAD, clean the lepers, cast out evil spirits. You have been given it for nothing, give it for nothing.”

In another place in the Gospels (eg. end of Mark) We hear Jesus say: “These signs will follow those that believe, they will heal the sick, cast out demons etc…”

Another place we read about someone who did these thing in Jesus’ name, but who was not walking with the apostles. The apostles felt uneasy about it, but Jesus let him do this and Jesus said: Those who are not against me are WITH ME.

You say you don’t know Heidi Baker. Well all I can do is say, you want to know how people can live in the Kingdom and at the same time be totally down to earth, sitting with the lost and poor and dying, and yet seeing great miracles, even multification of food for the starving, raising of the dead, healing of the sick (even of Aids and Colera), casting out demons, then you might want to get aquainted with her or others of her kind.
I was so surprised when I met such persons for the first time. I didn’t know they existed, because the traditional church I grew up in was really sceptic and cared not for miracles, but called it emotionalism and sensationalism.
I am rather simple, so I always wanted to meet Jesus the healer, and not just Jesus the teacher .

I am not saying that occultism does not exist. But theb fact that this is the first thing you think about, when you hear about a Christian ministry where miracles occur, really astonisches me.

 

[DaisyNJesus]

Better to answer with some half-truths then? If someone asks a question, then they deserve to be respected by giving them an honest answer.

Perhaps the OP has had his question answered and has no more need to ask further?

Dear Brendan.
The thread has turned into a discussion, as it must, I suppose.

I guess the question now is: is there room for me in the Church? Let us be real with each other. The unity between us is probably rather weak. My type of person is likely a nuissance to you, as I am a person who feels half Catholic, half Evangelical, who loves the silenct adoration of Jesus in the Eucharist, but feels unedified and uneasy within the Catholic culture and its popular devotions and ways, its emphasis on detailed rules and systems (maybe its just all very male and analytical).

So what am I to do? Maybe you all could leave your judgement of me, and say: what would you do if you were like me? Is it hypocritical of me to stay?
And please do not say: you change and then you stay. Because I am who I am, and I have read TONS and seen and experienced so much. I am not ignorant of the Church’s teachings, its greatness, its watertight circle-arguments, and I am also not some cradle Catholic that never saw anything else and thus cannot long for something else.

I am longing for edification and being in agreement with my faith community. I feel ill when I hear people say things like “Mary is the key to Jesus”, “you must pray the rosary as every decent Catholic”, “you must do vilence to yourself and pray and sing things that seem uacceptable to you”, “you must follow rules that come with a great personal sacrifice to you, even when you cannot see the reasonableness of it”, “you must be flat out glad to live on a stone and be lonely and sick, because we are catholics so we dont sing and dance and heal people and listen to powerful preaching, and have community and such because we dont need all that, because we are built on Peter and Peter needs no feelings, he only needs truth”. I am sorry, but that is not me.

 

[Brendan_64]

I guess the question now is: is there room for me in the Church? Let us be real with each other.

Of course there is room for you in the Church. However the Church is what the Church is, 2000 years of tradition, 2000 years of Truth. Truth does not depend on how it makes us feel, truth is not determined by emotions, truth simply is.

The unity between us is probably rather weak. My type of person is likely a nuissance to you, as I am a person who feels half Catholic, half Evangelica

Why not be an evangelical Catholic?

The Catholic Church is broader than people first think. There are many different charisms within the Church, the Charismatic movement, Opus Dei, Latin Mass Society, Justice and Peace, and much more.

However what we represent is the truth of Christ in its most complete, fullest sense, 2000 years of truth. A continuous tradition of truth going right back to the direct founder of our Church on Earth, Christ Himself.

Mass is not a social gathering where we come primarily to mix and mingle with our friends. Mass is a solemn event, afterall Calvary was a lonely place and it is the sacrifice of Calvary that is the central point of the Mass. Focus on the crucifix above the altar, compare that to what would be the central focus at an evangelical gathering. That perhaps may go some way towards explaining the difference in outward appearance of people during Mass, than at an evangelical gathering.

Please stick with us. Find a Catholic evangelical group to attend in addition to Mass, perhaps that might help you develop your particular spiritual charism.

Believe me, I do know how you feel, but from the other end of the spectrum. Presently I really am struggling myself, but because my parish church seems to becoming less ‘Catholic’ in the traditional sense of the word.

However I may consider walking away from my parish church, but I would never walk away from the Church. Where Peter is There is the Church.