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JKirkLVNV
Guest
What do you mean? I’'ve not heard it put quite like that in talking about this document. I rather think that “tendency” ***is ***“orientation.”
Catholic League comments on Vatican document and homosexuals in the priesthood
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TuckaMo
Guest
I agree with the Catholic League. Yet, homosexuals are still people and we cannot dismiss their proposals to the Catholic Priesthood. I don’t want to get too mixed up in it though… being 13 I may not know much!
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fix
Guest
Apparently the instruction says this:
What does that mean? It seems it means one must have no tendency toward homosexuality. How may one have an orientation that is not a tendency?
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Brad
Guest
Good news about Alex. Remember, all of us must find the will to fight that which threatens our eternal soul. Accept them and pray for them but work hard on behalf of their soul - that is the essence of their person.
It makes sense. I think the document agrees with your sentiments here. I pray that your friend accepts that he is now a spiritual father for the souls of many, which will ultimately require much sacrifice.
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Brad
Guest
The bold statement doesn’t follow from the rest of what you are saying. If the disorder activities have been repented from conformity to Christ has been realized and is visible for a period of time then there is no reason to consider what would be possible if he were to fall into sexual sin. If it is believed that it is possible for him to fall into sexual sin then he should not be ordained. Giving your life to Christ means making a statement that you are giving up your grave desires to serve Him.
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Brad
Guest
You don’t make proposals to the priesthood. You are called to the priesthood. A process of discernment involves the candidate (the one thay may be ordained) and the vocations director/Bishop/seminary (the ones that help him discern his call).I agree with the Catholic League. Yet, homosexuals are still people and we cannot dismiss their proposals to the Catholic Priesthood. I don’t want to get too mixed up in it though… being 13 I may not know much!
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OriginalJS
Guest
Vatican documents are rarely easy to understand for those looking for clear rules and bright lines of limitation. That is why there is so much discussion about what is really meant. This must be intended for the following reasons:
- A large percentage of the clergy in the United States is homosexual.
- The scandal over sexual abuse centers on abuse of boys by older clergy. Sexual activity between a priest and woman will not draw the negative reaction of sex between a priest and a boy or man.
- The Church cannot ban homosexuals from the active priesthood; there are too few priests already.
- Vocations are not where they should be; the decision must be to allow some, but not all, homosexuals to be ordained.
- The criteria for who gets in and who is kept out must remain fuzzy and subjective to permit necessary leeway.
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fix
Guest
They are only hard to grasp if we do not think with the mind of the Church.
You are joking?
Prudence is not eliminated. This instruction only clarifies what should have been going on all these years since 1961.
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Brad
Guest
The document is fairly short and quite clear. Certainly there are many (especially in the US) that are in the business of obfuscation in an effort to protect the homosexual subculture and all it’s “brilliant” past. Some have a hard time letting go.
Regarding the argument that the Church believe homosexuals are needed because of the priest shortage, this is a fairly myopic view of the overall universal Church.
First, there is no universal priest shortage. There has been a moderate decline in the US and a sharp decline in Western Europe. Other areas are flourishing.
Second, the Church is in the business of evangelizing and saving souls, not in manufacturing priests at any cost. Pope Benedict XVI has even said that perhaps the Church needs to get smaller before She can get well. He is not afraid of a smaller Church with less priests for a time.
Thirdly, the Pope and others in the Curia are well aware of what has caused the priest declines in these areas. It is secularization of the societies which has creeped into the the local churches. They understand that the solutions is not maintaining the status quo in these areas but to proceed with the new evangelization of Pope John Paul II by preaching the Gospel Truth in season and out of season. Accepting secular standards, statistics, and numbers is not what they are interested in.
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Brad
Guest
A good and important point.
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fix
Guest
Indeed, and Christ started with only 12, how did He do it?
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Brad
Guest
John 6:64-69
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away?
68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God.
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cathgal
Guest
Quality …not quantity, get it!
…not quantity, get it!
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OriginalJS
Guest
*Regarding the argument that the Church believe homosexuals are needed because of the priest shortage, this is a fairly myopic view of the overall universal Church.
First, there is no universal priest shortage. There has been a moderate decline in the US and a sharp decline in Western Europe. Other areas are flourishing.
*
This may be true. I am only going by what I see here in the Midwest where many small churches are being closed and where many others get a priest to say Mass only once every couple of weeks or so. I have not seen numbers from other areas of the world than the U.S. and Western Europe and I have no information on the percentages of homosexual priests in those other areas either. Thanks for the gentle correction.
First, there is no universal priest shortage. There has been a moderate decline in the US and a sharp decline in Western Europe. Other areas are flourishing.
*
This may be true. I am only going by what I see here in the Midwest where many small churches are being closed and where many others get a priest to say Mass only once every couple of weeks or so. I have not seen numbers from other areas of the world than the U.S. and Western Europe and I have no information on the percentages of homosexual priests in those other areas either. Thanks for the gentle correction.
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estesbob
Guest
AMEN BECKERS! AMEN!
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Brad
Guest
What you are experiencing is exactly part of my concern. Many churches and schools are closing on the premise that we are unable to increase vocations and unable to mix missionary priests in with our local populations. Little thought is being put into how to increase vocations and mass attendance. Even less thought is being put into the spiritual priorities of a parish community. Rather than look at a diocese that is doing well in terms of vocations and mass attendance, we seek “solutions” that are only more problems in the long term.
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fkpl
Guest
"In light of this teaching, this department, in agreement with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, holds it necessary clearly to affirm that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, may not admit to the seminary and Holy Orders those who practice homosexuality, show profoundly deep-rooted homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called gay culture."
It seems that this document begs the quesiton of what means to be homosexual. I assume “practicing homosexuality” is meant to mean engagement in physical activity. I am less clear about the applicability, in certain circumstances, of the second and third proscriptions: “showing deep-rooted homosexual tendencies” or “supporting the so-called gay culture.”
In the first place, I don’t think this document should be parsed like a criminal statute, i.e., with a bias toward limiting its applicability to the greatest extent possible rather than furthering its spirit and general purpose. It is not for the purpose of punishment, This issue, it seems to me, should not be addressed the way our courts battle with definitions of such things as obscenity.
In this regard, it seems that no man who defines himself as homosexual, even if he is chaste, meets the tests prescribed in the document. The document speaks of affective sexual immaturity in one’s past as not being disqualifying, but a current disposition that would cause one to define oneself by one’s sexual orientation or tendency would seem to evince “deep-rootedness” for purposes of this teaching.
I’m not sure I fully understand the parameters of what is meant by “supporting the so-called gay culture” but I think we need to have faith in our ecclesial authorities to “know it when they see it.”
It seems to me that the document should be read, and applied, liberally rather than conservatively or grudgingly if it is to serve its purpose.
I pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten those entrusted with the power of ordination to properly discern God’s will in this regard.
It seems that this document begs the quesiton of what means to be homosexual. I assume “practicing homosexuality” is meant to mean engagement in physical activity. I am less clear about the applicability, in certain circumstances, of the second and third proscriptions: “showing deep-rooted homosexual tendencies” or “supporting the so-called gay culture.”
In the first place, I don’t think this document should be parsed like a criminal statute, i.e., with a bias toward limiting its applicability to the greatest extent possible rather than furthering its spirit and general purpose. It is not for the purpose of punishment, This issue, it seems to me, should not be addressed the way our courts battle with definitions of such things as obscenity.
In this regard, it seems that no man who defines himself as homosexual, even if he is chaste, meets the tests prescribed in the document. The document speaks of affective sexual immaturity in one’s past as not being disqualifying, but a current disposition that would cause one to define oneself by one’s sexual orientation or tendency would seem to evince “deep-rootedness” for purposes of this teaching.
I’m not sure I fully understand the parameters of what is meant by “supporting the so-called gay culture” but I think we need to have faith in our ecclesial authorities to “know it when they see it.”
It seems to me that the document should be read, and applied, liberally rather than conservatively or grudgingly if it is to serve its purpose.
I pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten those entrusted with the power of ordination to properly discern God’s will in this regard.
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fix
Guest
fkpl said:
The directive is simply a clarification of existing norms. Read with the mind of the Church it is very clear. I hope the American bishops follow it as they ought.
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Brad
Guest
Vatican prelate explains gay-seminarian ban
Vatican, Nov. 29 (CWNews.com) - The prefect of the Congregation for Catholic Education today explained the purpose of the Instruction issued by that Congregation barring homosexual men from seminaries.
Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski told a Vatican Radio audience that homosexual acts violate the natural law, and even the inclination toward homosexuality “absolutely contradicts human anthropology.” The Church has a responsibility to see that the men selected for priestly ministry do not suffer from this disorder, especially in light of “a certain disorientation in today’s world,” he said.
The Polish prelate remarked that an imbalanced approach to human sexuality is evident in the intense public reaction to the Instruction issued by his Congregation. “The newspapers have spoken of this document as if it involved something extraordinary,” he said, whereas in fact the Instruction merely repeats what the Church has said “many times” in the past, and draws the obvious conclusions. He called attention to the October 1986 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on the pastoral care of homosexual persons, noting that it followed the same logic.
In the Western world today, Cardinal Grocholewski said, many people speak of homosexuality as if it were “a normal condition for the human person-- a sort of third gender.” The Church has always taught that it is an objectively disordered condition, he said.
The cardinal emphasized that the focus of the Instruction is on men who identify themselves as homosexual. The ban on seminary admissions would not necessarily apply, he said, to young men who had some “transitory” homosexual experiences that could be attributed to “adolescence, some sort of curiosity, or even accidental circumstances, or inebriation.” Such circumstances, he said, would not be evidence of a “deeply rooted” tendency that would disqualify a candidate from priestly formation.
Finally, Cardinal Grocholewski assured his Vatican Radio audience that there should be no question about the validity of the ordination of priests who are currently serving the Church who have homosexual tendencies. He added, however, that such priests have an obligation to live chaste lives, in keeping with Church teachings and natural law.
Vatican, Nov. 29 (CWNews.com) - The prefect of the Congregation for Catholic Education today explained the purpose of the Instruction issued by that Congregation barring homosexual men from seminaries.
Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski told a Vatican Radio audience that homosexual acts violate the natural law, and even the inclination toward homosexuality “absolutely contradicts human anthropology.” The Church has a responsibility to see that the men selected for priestly ministry do not suffer from this disorder, especially in light of “a certain disorientation in today’s world,” he said.
The Polish prelate remarked that an imbalanced approach to human sexuality is evident in the intense public reaction to the Instruction issued by his Congregation. “The newspapers have spoken of this document as if it involved something extraordinary,” he said, whereas in fact the Instruction merely repeats what the Church has said “many times” in the past, and draws the obvious conclusions. He called attention to the October 1986 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on the pastoral care of homosexual persons, noting that it followed the same logic.
In the Western world today, Cardinal Grocholewski said, many people speak of homosexuality as if it were “a normal condition for the human person-- a sort of third gender.” The Church has always taught that it is an objectively disordered condition, he said.
The cardinal emphasized that the focus of the Instruction is on men who identify themselves as homosexual. The ban on seminary admissions would not necessarily apply, he said, to young men who had some “transitory” homosexual experiences that could be attributed to “adolescence, some sort of curiosity, or even accidental circumstances, or inebriation.” Such circumstances, he said, would not be evidence of a “deeply rooted” tendency that would disqualify a candidate from priestly formation.
Finally, Cardinal Grocholewski assured his Vatican Radio audience that there should be no question about the validity of the ordination of priests who are currently serving the Church who have homosexual tendencies. He added, however, that such priests have an obligation to live chaste lives, in keeping with Church teachings and natural law.
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Riley259
Guest
An article today in the Boston Globe talks about how other faiths are wrestling with having homosexual clergy, ministers or rabbis. The Globe writer is clearly biased towards allowing it to happen. For example, look at this quote from Nancy Ammerman:
''If you make the decision that homosexuality is something God-given, that you get at birth and that therefore is to be accepted, everything else flows from that: gay unions, gays in the ministry, everything," Ammerman said. ''If you decide homosexuality is a choice, or a bad choice, then all of those things go the other way, and you’re likely to reject gays as members, reject gay unions, and reject gays in the clergy."
Read the full text of the article here:
boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/11/29/debate_over_gay_clergy_is_testing_many_faiths/
''If you make the decision that homosexuality is something God-given, that you get at birth and that therefore is to be accepted, everything else flows from that: gay unions, gays in the ministry, everything," Ammerman said. ''If you decide homosexuality is a choice, or a bad choice, then all of those things go the other way, and you’re likely to reject gays as members, reject gay unions, and reject gays in the clergy."
Read the full text of the article here:
boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/11/29/debate_over_gay_clergy_is_testing_many_faiths/
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