Catholic League comments on Vatican document and homosexuals in the priesthood

  • Thread starter Thread starter St.BJLabre
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
We must all support our Church in its witness to the Truth!

The ferocity of the response to what is a reiteration of Church policy shows how deeply ingrained this particular bit of heterodoxy has become in the Church. We cannot curry favor with the secular intelligensia or modern culture at the expense of compromising the fullness of Truth.

The cure may be unpleasant in the short term but it is necessary to the continued health and welfare of the Faith.

The Truth will prevail but the Devil can cause many to be lost in the meantime. Courage, all!
 
40.png
Riley259:
An article today in the Boston Globe talks about how other faiths are wrestling with having homosexual clergy, ministers or rabbis. The Globe writer is clearly biased towards allowing it to happen. For example, look at this quote from Nancy Ammerman:

''If you make the decision that homosexuality is something God-given, that you get at birth and that therefore is to be accepted, everything else flows from that: gay unions, gays in the ministry, everything," Ammerman said. ''If you decide homosexuality is a choice, or a bad choice, then all of those things go the other way, and you’re likely to reject gays as members, reject gay unions, and reject gays in the clergy."

Read the full text of the article here:

boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/11/29/debate_over_gay_clergy_is_testing_many_faiths/
This “nature v. nuture” ploy is a false dichotomy. Setting it up as constituting meaningful distinction leads to error. The Catechism states that the cause of the homosexual condition is unknown. Its origins are irrelevant to Church teaching.

Of course, why would one look to a newspaper for instruction on moral theology in the first place?
 
What is the difference between deeply seated homosexual tendencies and same sex attraction? Is this document reffering to all people who occassionally find themselves attraced to men or people who are consumed by exclusively homosexual desires?
 
40.png
fkpl:
This “nature v. nuture” ploy is a false dichotomy. Setting it up as constituting meaningful distinction leads to error. The Catechism states that the cause of the homosexual condition is unknown. Its origins are irrelevant to Church teaching.

Of course, why would one look to a newspaper for instruction on moral theology in the first place?
You’re right, the dichotomy presented in the quote is totally false. There’s good evidence that homosexuality is not likely completely biologically based but instead is probably more a product of environment, psycho-sexual development problems (ex., same-sex parent relationship; lack of masculine identity for gay men, etc) and perhaps some pre-disposition in some cases (gender non-conformity issues). Virtually no one is suggesting that homosexuals choose their condition (except in minority cases such as adolescent fads or women looking for more emotional bonding that they feel they can’t receive with male partners). Believe me, I’m not looking to the newspaper (in particular the Boston Globe) for my moral theology - I’m just pointing out the obvious bias of the secular media in this matter.
 
Riley259,

I’m sorry if I sounded critical of you. I did not intend to be. I was criticizing the Boston Globe writer’s putative logic. She is completely wrong in setting up that “nature v. nuture” strawman.

The Church and its members must be strong and resolute in the face of the massive criticism that this directive will incur from secular society and the enemies of the Church. We need to weather this with humility and faithfulness to Truth.

Father Richard John Neuhaus said the reaction to the directive is about three things:

“implementation”, “implementation” and “implementation”

God bless.
 
Like I said in another thread, I am a young man who suffers with same sex attractions. I have also been thinking about the priesthood. However, now that the Vatican has officially released the document and I took the time to read it, it seems blatantly obvious that even celibate men with permanent same sex attractions are barred from the priesthood. Like I promised before, I will no longer pursue the priesthood. I admit that I am a little sanded (I really thought that I might have had a call to the priesthood), but I am glad to finally know my vocation in life. Now that I have had a little time to reflect on it, I realize that a lot of the reason I wanted to be a priest at the beginning was to avoid questions like, “why aren’t you married?” Well, I guess I won’t be avoiding questions like that :rolleyes:. I think that this is the reason a lot of homosexual men join the priesthood, because after their whole world caves in on them, they want to run and hide. Questions like, “what am I going to do with the rest of my life?” are constantly nagging at your head. But, accepting crosses, while not always easy to do, brings with it a great deal of peace. I have never felt so peaceful in my life than I do right now. I have always wanted to do missionary work, maybe someday, God willing, I will be able to tell people who have never heard about Christ the Good News as a lay missionary.
 
40.png
St.BJLabre:
Like I said in another thread, I am a young man who suffers with same sex attractions. I have also been thinking about the priesthood. However, now that the Vatican has officially released the document and I took the time to read it, it seems blatantly obvious that even celibate men with permanent same sex attractions are barred from the priesthood. Like I promised before, I will no longer pursue the priesthood. I admit that I am a little sanded (I really thought that I might have had a call to the priesthood), but I am glad to finally know my vocation in life. Now that I have had a little time to reflect on it, I realize that a lot of the reason I wanted to be a priest at the beginning was to avoid questions like, “why aren’t you married?” Well, I guess I won’t be avoiding questions like that :rolleyes:. I think that this is the reason a lot of homosexual men join the priesthood, because after their whole world caves in on them, they want to run and hide. Questions like, “what am I going to do with the rest of my life?” are constantly nagging at your head. But, accepting crosses, while not always easy to do, brings with it a great deal of peace. I have never felt so peaceful in my life than I do right now. I have always wanted to do missionary work, maybe someday, God willing, I will be able to tell people who have never heard about Christ the Good News as a lay missionary.
You are a courageous person who is facing his cross in life honestly and squarely. Eventually, you will find joy and lasting peace in knowing you did the right thing and for that God will bless you. You are in my prayers.
 
40.png
St.BJLabre:
Like I said in another thread, I am a young man who suffers with same sex attractions. I have also been thinking about the priesthood. However, now that the Vatican has officially released the document and I took the time to read it, it seems blatantly obvious that even celibate men with permanent same sex attractions are barred from the priesthood. Like I promised before, I will no longer pursue the priesthood. I admit that I am a little sanded (I really thought that I might have had a call to the priesthood), but I am glad to finally know my vocation in life. Now that I have had a little time to reflect on it, I realize that a lot of the reason I wanted to be a priest at the beginning was to avoid questions like, “why aren’t you married?” Well, I guess I won’t be avoiding questions like that :rolleyes:. I think that this is the reason a lot of homosexual men join the priesthood, because after their whole world caves in on them, they want to run and hide. Questions like, “what am I going to do with the rest of my life?” are constantly nagging at your head. But, accepting crosses, while not always easy to do, brings with it a great deal of peace. I have never felt so peaceful in my life than I do right now. I have always wanted to do missionary work, maybe someday, God willing, I will be able to tell people who have never heard about Christ the Good News as a lay missionary.
God bless you, young man. Christ is working in and through you. I have no doubt that you are in for a life of grace and accomplishment.

I wish I might have been called to the priesthood but I was not. God’s plan for each of us is a mystery but it is a benevolent and meaningful one. All we need to do is ask for the grace to see our way to it. I think you have it and pray that your journey will be full of light and grace.
 
40.png
St.BJLabre:
Like I said in another thread, I am a young man who suffers with same sex attractions. I have also been thinking about the priesthood. However, now that the Vatican has officially released the document and I took the time to read it, it seems blatantly obvious that even celibate men with permanent same sex attractions are barred from the priesthood. Like I promised before, I will no longer pursue the priesthood. I admit that I am a little sanded (I really thought that I might have had a call to the priesthood), but I am glad to finally know my vocation in life. Now that I have had a little time to reflect on it, I realize that a lot of the reason I wanted to be a priest at the beginning was to avoid questions like, “why aren’t you married?” Well, I guess I won’t be avoiding questions like that :rolleyes:. I think that this is the reason a lot of homosexual men join the priesthood, because after their whole world caves in on them, they want to run and hide. Questions like, “what am I going to do with the rest of my life?” are constantly nagging at your head. But, accepting crosses, while not always easy to do, brings with it a great deal of peace. I have never felt so peaceful in my life than I do right now. I have always wanted to do missionary work, maybe someday, God willing, I will be able to tell people who have never heard about Christ the Good News as a lay missionary.
From the Catechism:

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Keep on keepin’ on. You are on your way.
 
40.png
St.BJLabre:
Like I said in another thread, I am a young man who suffers with same sex attractions. I have also been thinking about the priesthood. However, now that the Vatican has officially released the document and I took the time to read it, it seems blatantly obvious that even celibate men with permanent same sex attractions are barred from the priesthood. Like I promised before, I will no longer pursue the priesthood. I admit that I am a little sanded (I really thought that I might have had a call to the priesthood), but I am glad to finally know my vocation in life. Now that I have had a little time to reflect on it, I realize that a lot of the reason I wanted to be a priest at the beginning was to avoid questions like, “why aren’t you married?” Well, I guess I won’t be avoiding questions like that :rolleyes:. I think that this is the reason a lot of homosexual men join the priesthood, because after their whole world caves in on them, they want to run and hide. Questions like, “what am I going to do with the rest of my life?” are constantly nagging at your head. But, accepting crosses, while not always easy to do, brings with it a great deal of peace. I have never felt so peaceful in my life than I do right now. I have always wanted to do missionary work, maybe someday, God willing, I will be able to tell people who have never heard about Christ the Good News as a lay missionary.
Before you drop you persuit of the Priesthood based, it seems, on your readng of a document that has been out one day and based on comments you have read in these frorums I would talk to your Diocesan vocations office.I have read nothing you have posted that would lead me to beleive you are precluded from persuing the Priesthood.
 
What does it mean to have “deep-seated homosexual tendencies?” The recent instruction from the Congregation for Catholic Education defines this condition as distinct from both the practice of the act and from a condition referred to as “transitory homosexuality.” This implies that the instruction is triggered for one who experiences persistent same-sex desire entirely apart from how the individual handles it. Behavior, it seems in this context, is irrelevant.

This instruction is based, not upon prejudice, but on the observed characteristics of those who experience same-sex attraction. They are gravely hindered from proper relations with members of either gender. Examples are plentiful, a few of which include the pederasty scandal, the rampant disease within the effected demographic and an omnipresent desire to upend age-old social conventions to accommodate their own perversions. Their condition indeed constitutes “a destabilizing reality for people and for society” as reported yesterday. The Church therefore makes a prudential judgment about admitting such persons to Holy Orders.

The intense interest generated by this order cannot have escaped the notice of the Holy See and it would be a strange instruction if it made a prudential judgment that the lay community itself was to be restricted from making. It would be a grave omission for a Christian not to take the Church’s judgment on homosexuality into consideration when dealing with people who experience this condition. In the past, the Church rightly taught that access even to employment, food, shelter and education could be justly restricted based upon conduct. This instruction, again based upon sound observation, widens the scope of conditions under which that same judgment can be made based upon the potential for immoral conduct. This condition, destructive as it is to the welfare of society, seems to constrain the individual’s right to invoke social justice. Obviously one cannot claim the protection of society if one works towards its destruction.

It is hard for me not to see this as a ringing endorsement of all that I have said upon this issue.
 
QUOTE]What does it mean to have “deep-seated homosexual tendencies?” The recent instruction from the Congregation for Catholic Education defines this condition as distinct from both the practice of the act and from a condition referred to as “transitory homosexuality.” This implies that the instruction is triggered for one who experiences persistent same-sex desire entirely apart from how the individual handles it. Behavior, it seems in this context, is irrelevant.

This instruction is based, not upon prejudice, but on the observed characteristics of those who experience same-sex attraction. They are gravely hindered from proper relations with members of either gender. Examples are plentiful, a few of which include the pederasty scandal, the rampant disease within the effected demographic and an omnipresent desire to upend age-old social conventions to accommodate their own perversions. Their condition indeed constitutes “a destabilizing reality for people and for society” as reported yesterday. The Church therefore makes a prudential judgment about admitting such persons to Holy Orders.

The intense interest generated by this order cannot have escaped the notice of the Holy See and it would be a strange instruction if it made a prudential judgment that the lay community itself was to be restricted from making. It would be a grave omission for a Christian not to take the Church’s judgment on homosexuality into consideration when dealing with people who experience this condition. In the past, the Church rightly taught that access even to employment, food, shelter and education could be justly restricted based upon conduct. This instruction, again based upon sound observation, widens the scope of conditions under which that same judgment can be made based upon the potential for immoral conduct. This condition, destructive as it is to the welfare of society, seems to constrain the individual’s right to invoke social justice. Obviously one cannot claim the protection of society if one works towards its destruction.

It is hard for me not to see this as a ringing endorsement of all that I have said upon this issue.

I have read some of your others posts on the topic of homosexuality and I have to say that I have never been more offended in my life. To suggest somehow that I chose to have same sex attractions makes me want to throw up, it is an increadably painful thing to go through; you couldn’t even begin to imagine. On top of that, you actually said that people with same sex attractions are damned.
There is no salvation for one who faces this temptation.
Well, that isn’t what the Church teaches…
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Although I don’t believe I was born a homosexual, I definitely didn’t choose it.

I assure you that when I die and stand before the throne of God I will not be empty handed, as you have suggested of people with same sex attractions who remain chaste. I have completely denied myself in order to follow God’s plan. I admit that I do not know you, so I am trying to be a charitable as possible, but the record needs to be set straight for anyone who thinks the way you do.

I will pray for you.
 
40.png
St.BJLabre:
I have read some of your others posts on the topic of homosexuality and I have to say that I have never been more offended in my life. To suggest somehow that I chose to have same sex attractions makes me want to throw up, it is an increadably painful thing to go through; you couldn’t even begin to imagine. On top of that, you actually said that people with same sex attractions are damned.

Well, that isn’t what the Church teaches…

Although I don’t believe I was born a homosexual, I definitely didn’t choose it.

I assure you that when I die and stand before the throne of God I will not be empty handed, as you have suggested of people with same sex attractions who remain chaste. I have completely denied myself in order to follow God’s plan. I admit that I do not know you, so I am trying to be a charitable as possible, but the record needs to be set straight for anyone who thinks the way you do.

I will pray for you.
I’m sorry that you find my opinions offensive. You are, of course, entitled to your own. I do not believe anything I have written to be in conflict with what the Church teaches. Simply because that the Catechism outlines a possible means of salvation for those with this disorder, it does not follow that this is what will happen any more than it follows that the sun will rise in the west tomorrow because God can cause that to happen. I believe that the instruction and the reasoning it uses counsels against applying this sort of thinking to any real-world scenario. This thinking is reflected in the utter absence of anyone who openly suffered from this condition in the lists of canonized saints.

As far as your own situation is concerned, I cannot hope to comprehend what mercies the Creator may have in store for you. I rely on the documents promulgated by the Magisterium and the pastoral methods recommended to form my opinions. I would further caution you against the seeming presumptuous assumption about your own state of grace, as such presumption could be considered a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
 
Other Eric:
I’m sorry that you find my opinions offensive. You are, of course, entitled to your own. I do not believe anything I have written to be in conflict with what the Church teaches. Simply because that the Catechism outlines a possible means of salvation for those with this disorder, it does not follow that this is what will happen any more than it follows that the sun will rise in the west tomorrow because God can cause that to happen. I believe that the instruction and the reasoning it uses counsels against applying this sort of thinking to any real-world scenario. This thinking is reflected in the utter absence of anyone who openly suffered from this condition in the lists of canonized saints.

As far as your own situation is concerned, I cannot hope to comprehend what mercies the Creator may have in store for you. I rely on the documents promulgated by the Magisterium and the pastoral methods recommended to form my opinions. I would further caution you against the seeming presumptuous assumption about your own state of grace, as such presumption could be considered a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
The hatred and bigotry you post towards homosexuals in no way reflects the teachings of the Chuch. This has been pointed out to you numerous times but you ignore it, prefering to stick to your own twisted interpretation. After reading the bile you spew in this thread i can not believe you would presume to lecture others on their state of grace.

I suggest you get counselng for your deep seated hatred of homosexuals. Meahwhile all the rest of us can do is point out what you spew is contrary to the teachings of the Magestrium and pray for you.
 
40.png
estesbob:
The hatred and bigotry you post towards homosexuals in no way reflects the teachings of the Chuch. This has been pointed out to you numerous times but you ignore it, prefering to stick to your own twisted interpretation. After reading the bile you spew in this thread i can not believe you would presume to lecture others on their state of grace.

I suggest you get counselng for your deep seated hatred of homosexuals. Meahwhile all the rest of us can do is point out what you spew is contrary to the teachings of the Magestrium and pray for you.
All I am doing is pointing out that this rosy-cheeked, sunshiny interpretation that some have about the nature of homosexuality is not one that can be backed up with citations, taken in context, to anything the Church has actually written on the subject. To my mind, the weight of evidence, both theological and scientific, argues against such nonsense.

I must protest that this line of discussion is, in the first place, off the thread topic and, in the second place, is really not a topic appropriate to a public forum. Comments about my own supposed intolerance, bigotry or need for clinical evaluation are best made through the private messaging system.

I have had my say here and will leave it at that.
 
Other Eric:
All I am doing is pointing out that this rosy-cheeked, sunshiny interpretation that some have about the nature of homosexuality is not one that can be backed up with citations, taken in context, to anything the Church has actually written on the subject. To my mind, the weight of evidence, both theological and scientific, argues against such nonsense.

I must protest that this line of discussion is, in the first place, off the thread topic and, in the second place, is really not a topic appropriate to a public forum. Comments about my own supposed intolerance, bigotry or need for clinical evaluation are best made through the private messaging system.

I have had my say here and will leave it at that.
The Catechism is written by the Church and simply says the person who struggles with homosexual temptation must be chaste like the rest of us. It clearly holds out the possibility of doing such. Yet one should not define themselves simply by their temptations. If they did we might actually have quite a few homosexual saints. That was always between them and their spiritual guides or confessors.

It is a matter of perspective folks.
 
I am closing the thread

Reasons:
  1. Many uncharitable posts questioning each other’s faith, which is not allowed in the forum. Please review the forum guidelines before posting. People on both sides of the issues in this thread are at fault here.
  2. Off topic
  3. Wrong forum. Holy Orders is a sacrament and it should have been posted there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top