Catholic mysticism and occult

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I’m finding it hard to differentiate between the occult which the very definition mentions mysticism, therefore does this mean catholic and Jewish mysticism is the occult ?

I must say I have a thirst for knowledge and how these practices get you to potentially have divine experiences as talked about in Jewish mysticism and catholic mysticism this is what I’m looking for ?

In Judaism white magic is allowed what’s the stance on the Catholic Church ?
 
John121 said:
therefore does this mean catholic and Jewish mysticism is the occult ?
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Catholic mysticism is not occult. Mysticism does not try to give the mystic powers to bend reality as the mystic sees fit. I’m not really sure how to define mysticism, but it is definitely not occult.
John121 said:
In Judaism white magic is allowed what’s the stance on the Catholic Church ?
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There is no white, grey, or black magic in the Church. It’s all magic, and it’s all evil.
 
I don’t understand how knowledge used for the greater good can be evil ?
 
John121 said:
I don’t understand how knowledge used for the greater good can be evil ?
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Using immortal means to get a moral result does not make it moral. Catholics are not utilitarians.
John121 said:
But I don’t understand how God works ?
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You can’t make God do something just because you say certain words and provide certain things. That’s what magic aims to do.
 
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John121 said:
I must say I have a thirst for knowledge and how these practices get you to potentially have divine experiences as talked about in Jewish mysticism and catholic mysticism this is what I’m looking for ?
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No. That’s a totally wrong objective and reason to take up “Catholic mysticism”.

Catholic “mysticism” refers to the experiences of people who spend their whole lives praying and helping the poor and in other ways striving to be close to God, and God decides who gets those charisms. You could conceivably live a very holy life and never have a mystic experience ever; other people just get them naturally from the time they are young children. You can’t read a book or study about it or even pray about it and just make it happen. And your objective should be desire for closeness to God, not “desire for knowledge”. That’s Adam’s sin right there.

As for “Jewish mysticism” you would need to be a practicing, very educated Jewish person for a long time to even start with that.

Magic is not allowed by the Catholic Church, ever. Anyone who messes with it is risking demonic attacks/ possession and also committing a sin.
 
John121 said:
I’m finding it hard to differentiate between the occult which the very definition mentions mysticism, therefore does this mean catholic and Jewish mysticism is the occult ?

I must say I have a thirst for knowledge and how these practices get you to potentially have divine experiences as talked about in Jewish mysticism and catholic mysticism this is what I’m looking for ?

In Judaism white magic is allowed what’s the stance on the Catholic Church ?
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Modern Catholic Dictionary, Occultism
The theory and practice of invoking superhuman, but not divine, powers in order to obtain results that are beyond the capacity of mere nature. In this category belong Satanism, fetishism, black and white magic, spiritism, theosophy, divination, and witchcraft.
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Catholic Encyclopedia, Mysticism
With Christianity, the history of Mysticism enters into a new period. The Fathers recognized indeed the partial truth of the pagan system, but they pointed out also its fundamental errors. They made a distinction between reason and faith, philosophy and theology; they acknowledged the aspirations of the soul, but, at the same time, they emphasized its essential inability to penetrate the mysteries of Divine life. They taught that the vision of God is the work of grace and the reward of eternal life; in the present life only a few souls, by a special grace, can reach it.
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Sauvage, G. (1911). Mysticism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663b.htm
 
I just need to focus and stay away from Jewish mysticism books for now they are distracting me from my relationship with God !
 
Note the profound differences. From the Modern Catholic Dictionary by the late Fr. John Hardon, S.J.
MYSTICISM. The supernatural state of soul in which God is known in a way that no human effort or exertion could ever succeed in producing. There is an immediate, personal experience of God that is truly extraordinary, not only in intensity and degree, but in kind. It is always the result of a special, totally unmerited grace of God. Christian mysticism differs essentially from the non-Christian mysticism of the Oriental world. It always recognizes that the reality to which it penetrates simply transcends the soul and the cosmos; there is no confusion between I and thou, but always a profound humility before the infinite Majesty of God. And in
Christian mysticism all union between the soul and God is a moral union of love, in doing his will even at great sacrifice to self; there is no hint of losing one’s being in God or absorption of one’s personality into the divine.

OCCULTISM. The theory and practice of invoking superhuman, but not divine, powers in order to obtain results that are beyond the capacity of mere nature. In this category belong Satanism, fetishism, black and white magic, spiritism, theosophy, divination, and witchcraft.
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Tis_bearself gave a good definition of Catholic/Christian Mysticism.

To get a better understanding of Catholic Mysticism there are some great Saints (some are Doctors of the Church) to read…oth work by them and works about them:

Saint Catherine of Sienna
Saint Theresa of Avila
Saint John of the Cross
Saint Francis of Assisi
Saint Bonaventure
Saint Therese de Liseux
Saint Ignatius of Loyola
Saint Padre Pio

There are plenty more, and some other great ones, but these ones are good to start. If you read them/about them, pay particular attention to their RELATIONSHIP with God, and how they EXPERIENCE God in that relationship. That’s Christian / Catholic mysticism.

Also recall the Gospels and Acts, and remember that Jesus, as God Incarnate, encountered people daily. He met them and they met him, whether on the Road to Emmaus or Damascus, Mary’s womb, the Sea of Galilee, or anywhere else. When they met Jesus, they EXPERIENCED God and His divine love. Their lives changed forever. Even though everyone’s experience with Jesus was different, I’d argue that mysticism has been at the core of Christianity since it’s beginning.

Side note: Saint Francis originally did not want his friars to be priests or be highly educated, because he felt too much studying was a distraction to prayer, which was far more important…Fortunately, Saint Anthony was able to convince him that learning and knowledge is actually very important, as we well know these days, as is having priests in the Order… But Saint Francis’ concerns weren’t entirely misplaced. The spiritual life, (including/especially mysticism), is not so much about knowledge, but rather about prayer, and an encounter with Christ.

Experiences may vary.
 
The term mysticism as used by the church is maybe a bit unfortunate today because different connotations come up that are not at all what the church means by the term. Study the church mystics and you’ll find that out right away.
 
Interesting that you say St Francis did not want them to study because it takes away from prayer I often thought about this as I’m finding it hard to make the choice on what to do in life ! It seems that if I put the hours into prayer I could help those on earth through heaven and Gods mercy I’m distracted by making lots of money so I can give to the poor but spirtual needs are more important but this will not register in my brain as society has thought me that prayer isn’t that important and being rich and having power is…

The problem I have is that I want to become a saint but I’m having serious problems with committing!

I’m trying to study on how to change and not look back !
 
Maybe study less mysticism and more concrete study and in that way you might get a good grounding in the Church teaching before you try to fly… so to speak. Try : Introduction to a devout life - Frances De Sales. It is set around the time (a little later) of mystics like St John of the Cross and St Theresa of Avila but is written more for the lay people (gentry actually) rather than directed at religious, so you may find it’s guidelines (still for those of us who want to be saints) more pertinent . And even though it was written so long ago, believe me it more than applies to todays life. And/or you could always read the Catechism 😃
 
I need to give knowledge a rest I read from a comment that St Francis was thinking about this subject and knew prayer was more important and I have to agree now that I have contemplated a lot about this issue for two weeks knowledge and power has been on my mind a lot and I have falling away from prayer and daily mass for two weeks over my lack of understanding about the cruelty of the world and why it can’t be fixed or why it’s not possible to help more in a huge way…

Sometimes I have way to much sorrow about the reality of helping people escape Hell and feel it’s a all consuming life and feel how can anyone truly enjoy there life knowing you can help people escape hell every hour of every day and then if you help them escape he’ll they will have to get out of more torture from purgatory and this seems to me too much for existence way to much torture and evil!

I have had very strange meditations about certain things and all that keeps going through my mind that instead of stopping Lucifer before he sends and deceived people to hell God let’s him do it this to me I can’t seem to understand it’s like seeing a man deceive children into flames and having the power to stop him doing it to people before he does it saving the children’s lives.
 
I’m with God and I know he will have a answer that right now I can’t understand and I know faith has to trump human understanding but this and more questions is holding me back at the moment from being devoted to God also I feel a serious lack of love in the church in Ireland everyone seems to walk into church and walk out and have little or no conversation which is what a community is supposed to be about !
 
Don’t get me wrong, knowledge and learning is important. Saint Francis recognized this later. But we’re not to allow it to interfere with our prayer life. If it’s causing you as much anxiety as it sounds, I think you’re making a good choice by taking a step back. You can work on integrating study back into your daily routine in a couple weeks. But i’d suggest having a plan, and sticking to less esoteric subjects until well grounded in scripture and the catechism (I don’t know where you are in that, you may be well Catechised and learned for all I know, but it’s worth mentioning anyway). Diving into mystical theology and mystical spirituality is great, and is something I am personally interested in as well, but you can encounter some strange stories, and mystical theologians that discuss some unusual ideas, and it’s important to be able to discern these ideas in the light of the magisterium.

Once you get your prayer life back in order, you can also look into Saint Dominic and Dominican spirituality. Saint Dominic didn’t separate study and prayer in the same way his friend, Saint Francis did in the early years. He integrated them in a way similar to the Benedictine concept of Ora et Labora. But I don’t want to put too much on your plate right now. I think your plan to focus on your prayer life for a little while is sound.
 
Thanks I think I’ll start praying a lot at night and morning wile getting back into the liturgy of the hours as well !
 
John121 said:
I must say I have a thirst for knowledge
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One of my favorite parts of scripture is Matthew 10:16. I have it as
See, I am sending you like sheep into the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
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Are knowledge and wisdom related. Sure…,but they are not the same. On one level wisdom has more to do with interpreting the knowledge you have. You do need a framework of knowledge to interpret more knowledge, so wisdom and knowledge are related. The question is always “Why do you want the knowledge?”. If it is because you want power or you want to feel special because you’re the only one that knows or experiences something, that is not good. If you want to protect yourselves from the inevitable wolves in life and keep your innocence, that could be good.
 
I want knowledge and wisdom to be able to act on this earth to help people from hell and myself from hell so far I’m failing at both because as I feel in the last 5 years of my life I have Curses over me i won’t go into to the details but a lot happened and I was told seek a spirtual director which I did and he realized from my reading of occult and magic books that I had them and as well as my history of serious bad luck on many occasions, as I specified in many threads if I had wisdom and knowledge that was right a lot of not all the things that happened me would of been ok but because of my lack of knowledge and wisdom I always made the wrong choice I don’t think it’s fair to be honest because there are so many books and it’s not for ignorance that I did not find out the truth before because I would read for hours everyday since about 16 looking for the truth it was only last year at the age of 25 I realized God was real and the Bible was true
 
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