Catholic/Orthodox question

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dear peary,

That has already been pointed out. The reason it should not be discussed is because we are talking here about actions initiated by ecclesiastical authorities, not secular powers.

There is no conjecture about the matter of the imposition of the Latin rite on Greeks in Sicily and southern Italy. The Pope was being held prisoner by the invading Normans. He was in no position to do anything about what these Latin-rite invaders did.
Except blessing them.

I thought caesaro-papism was only something we did.:rolleyes:
Something which had come to my attention only in the past week is the fact that there was generally more freedom regarding Liturgies in the Western patriarchate than in the Eastern patriarchates. The Easterns since the Council of Trullo had demonstrated their opposition to diversity in Tradition, when they attempted to enforce their practices and disciplines on Latins, Armenians, and North Africans. Thankfully, the Pope rejected the Council of Trullo.
Ah, but the council of Toledo XVIII (yep, same birthplace of the filioque) accepted the Council of Trullo way off in Spain.

The Archbishop of Gortyna in Crete added to his signature the phrase “Holding the place of the holy Church of Rome in every synod.” He had in the same way signed the decrees of the Sixth Ecumenical Council Constantinople III (which also met in Trullo), Crete belonging to the Roman Patriarchate

Pope Hadrian I. distinctly recognizes all the Trullan decrees in his letter to Tenasius of Constantinople and attributes them to the Sixth Ecumenical Council . “All the holy six synods I receive with all their canons, which rightly and divinely were promulgated by them, among which is contained that in which reference is made to a Lamb being pointed to by the Precursor as being found in certain of the venerable images.” Here the reference is unmistakably to the Trullan Canon LXXXII.

The Nicene Fathers series makes the interesting observation:
  1. That the Easterns have never pretended to impose this code upon the practice of the Western Churches, especially as they themselves do not practise everywhere the hundred and two canons mentioned. All they wished to do was to maintain the ancient discipline against the abuses and evil innovations of the Roman Church, and to make her pause upon the dangerous course in which she was already beginning to enter.
web.archive.org/web/20060227201846/www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-134.htm

though I have to agree with you that New Rome was as good as Old Rome in imposing its practices.

Funny, I recall seeing the uniformity of the Latin rite being touted as being greatly in its favor, that things were the same throughout the world, including the language. Diversity evidently didn’t become the buzz word until Vatican II.
 
Dear brother Hesychios

That is true, politically speaking. Ecclesiastically speaking, the Easterns seem to have had a big anti-Latin chip on its shoulder quite early on, its non-Catholic (i.e., non-universal) character quite evident as early as the Trullan Council where the East attempted to impose Eastern disciplines and practices on the Latins.

Blessings,
Marduk
Trullo just tried to reinforce the ancient discplines of the Church, e.g. married clergy. Ecclesiastically speaking the non-Orthodox (i.e. non-Patrisitic) character of the West is seen quite early on in its attempts to enforce the innovative ban on ordaining the married of the local council of Elvira in the West, and trying to enforce this parochial and hereterodox ban on the Catholic (i.e. universal) Church practice, which practice Trullo upheld.

“The Excommunication with which [EP] Michael Kerularios and his Followers * were wounded” which you yourself linked, lists among the “followers in the aforementioned errors and acts of presumption” for which we should be “anathema Maranatha with…the Nicolaitists,…-nay, with the devil himself and his angels, unless” we “should repent. AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.” that we “like the Nicolaitists,” we “allow and defend the carnal marriages of the ministers of the sacred altars”

Since we will ever hold to the Faith of the Fathers, including St. Peter, who was married (and St. Paul witnesses that St. Peter’s wife accompanied him, and St. Clement witnessses that St. Peter exhorted her in her martyrdom), we will ever defend the “carnal marriages” because the marriage bed is undefiled. So, like the Fathers and followers of Trullo, someone thinks we are of the devil. We know better.

Of course, since now your church, including your “sui juris” Coptic one, agree with Trullo on these things, and your pope (the one in Rome, you don’t have one in Alexandria) allows this, where are you all in the scheme of things?*
 
No one can deny that the Bull came from the west to the East and was delivered upon the altar of Hagia Sophia.

Whether or not THAT is what separated us is the false part of the claim. The fact of the matter is:
  1. BEFORE the Bull was even conceived, the Patriarch of Constantinople had ALREADY taken the name of the Pope of Rome off the diptychs. So who was the one that separated from whom?
The West, by adopting the innovation of a local council over the Universal Creed of the Ecumenical Councils.
  1. BEFORE the Bull was even conceived, the Patriarch of Constantinople had imposed the Greek rite on the Latins in the East, and forcibly closed down Latin churches in the East who did not accede to his tyranny.
But AFTER the Normans (with the cooperation of Latin bishops and priests, I won’t go on here about the Latin pope) had imposed the Latin rite on the native (for over a millenium) Greeks in Italy and forcilby closed down Eastern Churches in the West who did not accede to this tyranny.

It is my understanding (though, since I haven’t specifically researched it, so I can be corrected) the Latin parishes were those of ex pat populations, i.e. not a resident population like the Greeks were in Southern Italy.

Btw, there was a Latin monastery on Mount Athos, well past 1054. The high handness of the Crusaders of 1204 on Mt. Athos (yes, they weren’t just busy in New Rome), led to its demise.

cont…
 
Bishop Kallistos, a seemingly favorite of Latins here, back when he was Timory Ware (and more Orthodox), summarized:

At the beginning of the eleventh century there was fresh trouble over the filioque. The Papacy at last adopted the addition: at the coronation of Emperor Henry II at Rome in 1014, the Creed was sung in its interpolated form. Five years earlier, in 1009, the newly-elected Pope Sergius IV sent a letter to Constantinople which may have contained the filioque, although this is not certain. Whatever the reason, the Patriarch of Constantinople, also called Sergius, did not include the new Pope’s name in the Diptychs: these are lists, kept by each Patriarch, which contain the names of the other Patriarchs, living and departed, whom he recognizes as orthodox. The Diptychs are a visible sign of the unity of the Church, and deliberately to omit a man’s name from them is tantamount to a declaration that one is not in communion with him. After 1009 the Pope’s name did not appear again in the Diptychs of Constantinople; technically, therefore, the Churches of Rome and Constantinople were out of communion from that date. But it would be unwise to press this technicality too far. Diptychs were frequently incomplete, and so do not form an infallible guide to Church relations. The Constantinopolitan lists before 1009 often lacked the Pope’s name, simply because new Popes at their accession failed to notify the east. The omission in 1009 aroused no comment at Rome, and even at Constantinople men quickly forgot why and when the Pope’s name had first been dropped from the Diptychs.

In 1054 there was a severe quarrel. The Normans had been forcing the Greeks in Byzantine Italy to conform to Latin usages; the Patriarch of Constantinople, Michael Cerularius, in return demanded that the Latin churches at Constantinople should adopt Greek practices, and in 1052, when they refused, he closed them. This was perhaps harsh, but as Patriarch he was fully entitled to act in this manner. Among the practices to which Michael and his supporters particularly objected was the Latin use of “azymes” or unleavened bread in the Eucharist, an issue which had not figured in the dispute of the ninth century. In 1053, however, Cerularius took up a more conciliatory attitude and wrote to Pope Leo IX, offering to restore the Pope’s name to the Diptychs. In response to this offer, and to settle the disputed questions of Greek and Latin usages, Leo in 1054 sent three legates to Constantinople, the chief of them being Humbert, Bishop of Silva Candida. The choice of Cardinal Humbert was unfortunate, for both he and Cerularius were men of stiff and intransigent temper, whose mutual encounter was not likely to promote good will among Christians. The legates, when they called on Cerularius, did not create a favorable impression. Thrusting a letter from the Pope at him, they retired without giving the usual salutations; the letter itself, although signed by Leo, had in fact been drafted by Humbert, and was distinctly unfriendly in tone. After this the Patriarch refused to have further dealings with the legates. Eventually Humbert lost patience, and laid a Bull of Excommunication against Cerularius on the altar of the Church of the Holy Wisdom: among other ill-founded charges in this document, Humbert accused the Greeks of omitting the filioque from the Creed! Humbert promptly left Constantinople without offering any further explanation of his act, and on returning to Italy he represented the whole incident as a great victory for the see of Rome. Cerularius and his synod retaliated by anathematizing Humbert (but not the Roman Church as such). The attempt at reconciliation left matters worse than before.

fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_1.htm#n4
 
Conquored S. Italy? S. Italy (at the time called Magna Graecia “Greater Greece”) had been part of the Roman empire since c. 200 B.C.
Southern Italy exchanged hands between several powers, including the Normans and Greeks, during the Middle Ages. Your denial sounds strange as you admit that Emperor Justinian “drove them out.”:rolleyes:
Or, depending on who you ask, transferred to Moscow.
An innovation among the EO.:rolleyes:
Swallowed up by Islam? Hmm…last I checked the Greece, Bulgaria,Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, the Crimea…managed to have Islam spit them out like Jonah from the whale.
As you admit, they were indeed swallowed up by Islam temporarily. I think you like to argue for the sake of arguing.😛

Blessings
 
Dear brother Michael,
I did not want to address the Council of Trullo at this time, and I will not put much time into that. But I understand that it still plays an enormous role in the praxis of Byzantine Catholicism, so you might want to take this subject up with them on the other board.
Byzantine Catholicism does not attempt to impose its practices and disciplines on their fellow Western and Oriental Catholics. That was the error of the Trullan Council, not the practices and disciplines themselves.

It is only the EO, not the EC, judging from the posts of many EO (mostly contained in the Old Forum), who wish the non-Catholic character of the Trullan Council to persist, impugning Latin disciplines and practices such as the use of unleavened bread, celibate priesthood, days of fasting, types of fasting, etc.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I think I read that the Pope was a prisoner for nine months. His reign lasted a considerable length of time afterward, didn’t it? He did chum up to the Normans later. It was an astute political move.
Pope St. Leo IX was released by the Normans on March 12, 1054. a sick man longing to be with his people, and lifted their prior excommunication from February, 1053. He died on April 19, 1054
You seem to be trying to show that the removal of the Pope from the dyptichs was baseless, because he was “innocent”. But that is how it works, there is a dispute between the churches and the Patriarchs don’t get commemorated. Then the whole process of “kiss and make up” begins, as they talk their way through to a solution. It is an established procedure and the Patriarchs are the representatives of each respective synod.

In fact, I am not sure it was this Pope who was initially removed from the dyptichs, it could have happened earlier and for some other reason. It is even possible that the Popes had ceased the old practice of asking for communion and thus were not formally notifying their counterparts of their accession.
The reason I mentioned the removal of the Pope’s name from the diptychs of the Greek Church was for nothing more nor less than to refute polemic and dishonest attempts to impose the blame of the rupture of union completely on the Latin Church.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
§3. It is for the Roman Pontiff, according to the needs of the Church, to select and promote the ways by which the college of bishops is to exercise its function collegially regarding the universal Church.

Can. 338 §1. It is for the Roman Pontiff alone to convoke an ecumenical council, preside offer it personally or through others, transfer, suspend, or dissolve a council, and to approve its decrees.

Can. 340 If the Apostolic See becomes vacant during the celebration of a council, the council is interrupted by the law itself until the new Supreme Pontiff orders it to be continued or dissolves it.

Can. 341 §1. The decrees of an ecumenical council do not have obligatory force unless they have been approved by the Roman Pontiff together with the council fathers, confirmed by him, and promulgated at his order.

§2. To have obligatory force, decrees which the college of bishops issues when it places a truly collegial action in another way initiated or freely accepted by the Roman Pontiff need the same confirmation and promulgation.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P17.HTM
Sorry, none of these things demonstrates to me that the Pope has authority OVER an ecumenical Council. All they demonstrate to me is that the Pope is the head bishop of a college of bishops, these canons simply detailing the valid prerogatives of any head bishop. He has the primacy among his brother bishops in an ecumenical council - but he does not have supremacy over the college.

For it to be proven that the Pope has authority OVER an ecumenical council, it needs to be demonstrated that the Pope can override or cancel the dogmatic decrees of prior Ecumenical Councils. Unless that can be proven by actual explicit documentation (not polemic misinterpretations of history), then I would disagree with certain Latin Catholics and polemic non-Catholics that the Pope is an authority OVER an ecumenical council.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Pope St. Leo IX was released by the Normans on March 12, 1054. a sick man longing to be with his people, and lifted their prior excommunication from February, 1053. He died on April 19, 1054
Thank you for the timeline correction.
The reason I mentioned the removal of the Pope’s name from the diptychs of the Greek Church was for nothing more nor less than to refute polemic and dishonest attempts to impose the blame of the rupture of union completely on the Latin Church.

Blessings,
Marduk
The fact is the lack of a name on the Dyptichs does not preclude intercommunion. And that was certainly the case at the time, traveling Latins were communed all across the East up until that episode and in some places much later, until the crusades at least. That was the reason for the Latin parishes in Constantinople, their connection with Rome was through the Patriarch.

But I am sure the absence of commemoration precludes concelebration. When concelebrating it is absolutely necessary to commemorate the other hierarchs present. To not be willing to do so is like disinviting them, and they should not vest.

The question I have is: after the Bull was dropped on the altar, did Roman Catholic bishops all over western Europe stop communing Eastern Catholics traveling through? Could they tell a Greek speaking Antiochian from a Greek speaking Athenian or Alexandrian?
*
Michael*
 
Sorry, none of these things demonstrates to me that the Pope has authority OVER an ecumenical Council.
Hi Marduk,

I believe that you are the only person I have ever met, either personally or (this way) in cyberspace, who carries this opinion.

That to me is amazing.
*
Michael*
 
That large heretic council of Aachen in the West in 809 (after the small heretic council of Toledo in 589) approved the filioque.
They were not heretical. They simply had a different understanding of the word that is translated as “proceeds” in English. I really find it hard to believe that you can claim this, yet seem so understanding of the differences in theological expressions between the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches regarding the two natures of Christ. I’d be interested to know why you have such a lack of understanding towards the Latins while have such understanding towards the Orientals. I cannot conscientiously appreciate your understanding of my own Oriental Orthodox heritage, while you demonstrate such a lack of understanding towards my Latin brethren.
Pope Leo forbade it, and ordered that the Nicene creed be engraved on silver tablets and placed on the door of St. Peter’s and on St. Paul’s tomb without the filioque so that his conclusion might not be overturned in the future, with the inscription “HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI” (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith)(VITA LEONIS, LIBER PONTIFICALIS (Ed.Duchene, TII, p.26)
Pope Leo disapproved of an addition for use by the entire Western Church. He did not refuse its extant use in certain local Churches in the Latin Patriarchate. ALL accounts of the situation indicate that the Pope in no way rejected the doctrine of filioque - only its addition to the Creed. And that, to avoid any unnecessary tensions with the Greek Church.
Several decesions of the Ecumenical Councils were resisted by popes, only to be accepted later (i.e. Chalcedon canon 28).
The Church of Rome did not accept Chalcedon until the Easterns finally divested themselves of the error of determining ecclesiastical status based on socio-political standing. Once they began to claim their ecclesiastical status on the basis of apostolic succession from St. Andrew, THEN and ONLY THEN, did the bishop of Rome correctly accept Canon 28. But as one can see, it was not the Church of Rome that changed or needed to change, but rather the Church of Constantinople. The Church of Rome stuck by her guns and by her standards, and it was the Church of Constantinople that finally relented to the Truth.
The Church didn’t wait.
Well, the Western Church certainly waited, in line with its Patriarch. If you statement reflects the general EO attitude, it would demonstrate that EO are not Catholic since you restrict your definition of “Church” even in the first millenium to only what the Eastern portion of the Church agrees to.
I’ve posted the proof Mardukm asked you for in support of the allegations of your church on this matter.
Rather weak proof, brother.

I’ve gotta go. I’ll respond to the rest of your post (if someone else has not) next time I come online.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Southern Italy exchanged hands between several powers, including the Normans and Greeks,
you mean the Romans
during the Middle Ages. Your denial sounds strange as you admit that Emperor Justinian “drove them out.”:rolleyes:
I didn’t deny that they invaded. Just denied they had a right to be there.
An innovation among the EO.:rolleyes:
new application of an old principle, whether correct or successful I won’t go into now.
As you admit, they were indeed swallowed up by Islam temporarily. I think you like to argue for the sake of arguing.😛
Your post compared the Greek Orthodox of South Italy (which the Latin church succeeded in eliminating, save those who immigrated to Greece, etc.) and the Roman Empire, which emerged in part from the Turkocratia. And Remnants (al-Ruum) still hold on under Islam.
 
Dear brother Michael,

Byzantine Catholicism does not attempt to impose its practices and disciplines on their fellow Western and Oriental Catholics. That was the error of the Trullan Council, not the practices and disciplines themselves.

It is only the EO, not the EC, judging from the posts of many EO (mostly contained in the Old Forum), who wish the non-Catholic character of the Trullan Council to persist, impugning Latin disciplines and practices such as the use of unleavened bread, celibate priesthood, days of fasting, types of fasting, etc.

Blessings,
Marduk
As many of the EC adopted the practices you list, in fact forced to, yes it is only the EO who wish that the Catholic character of Trullo to persist. That why St. Father Alexius Toth led his flock back to the EO. The non-Catholic nature of Arbh Ireland (the Father of American Orthodoxy)'s reaction to married priesthood.
 
Hi Marduk,

I believe that you are the only person I have ever met, either personally or (this way) in cyberspace, who carries this opinion.

That to me is amazing.
*
Michael*
And I have to add, your thinking on the Oriental and Latin Church relationship.
 
They were not heretical. They simply had a different understanding of the word that is translated as “proceeds” in English.
Not all different understandings are heretical, but all heretical understandings are different.

That, btw, goes for the Franks semi-Arian council of Frankfurt (794) too.
I really find it hard to believe that you can claim this, yet seem so understanding of the differences in theological expressions between the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches regarding the two natures of Christ. I’d be interested to know why you have such a lack of understanding towards the Latins while have such understanding towards the Orientals. I cannot conscientiously appreciate your understanding of my own Oriental Orthodox heritage, while you demonstrate such a lack of understanding towards my Latin brethren.
Simple, explanations of the OO on this issue further show how that they are the same as the EO on both Nestorianism and Eutychism/Monophysitism. Further defense of the filioque just further shows the problems with it (subordination, dual procession/source, etc.)
Pope Leo disapproved of an addition for use by the entire Western Church. He did not refuse its extant use in certain local Churches in the Latin Patriarchate. ALL accounts of the situation indicate that the Pope in no way rejected the doctrine of filioque - only its addition to the Creed. And that, to avoid any unnecessary tensions with the Greek Church.
So which Popes do we follow, Leo or those that Anthony brought up that approved and DEMANDED it?

The Church of Rome did not accept Chalcedon until the Easterns finally divested themselves of the error of determining ecclesiastical status based on socio-political standing. Once they began to claim their ecclesiastical status on the basis of apostolic succession from St. Andrew, THEN and ONLY THEN, did the bishop of Rome correctly accept Canon 28.

The claims of St. Andrew are without import on this issue, as nothing suggests that St. Andrew’s founding the Church at Byzantium, to which Constantinople is the successor, would put her before Antioch, Jerusalem or even Alexandria.

And such claims only began to be pressed after 1204.
But as one can see, it was not the Church of Rome that changed or needed to change, but rather the Church of Constantinople. The Church of Rome stuck by her guns and by her standards, and it was the Church of Constantinople that finally relented to the Truth.
Chalceon 28 confirmed Constantinople I 3. Otherwise neither Nestorius nor Antolius (nor Eutychius at Constantinople II) would have not standing, but would be merely suffragans.

What Rome was sticking to was her pride, as she no longer had any socio-political standing.
Well, the Western Church certainly waited, in line with its Patriarch. If you statement reflects the general EO attitude, it would demonstrate that EO are not Catholic since you restrict your definition of “Church” even in the first millenium to only what the Eastern portion of the Church agrees to.
As I posted, Toledo accepted Trullo and didn’t wait for it’s patriarch.

Honorios acceptance of Monotheletism didn’t make it Catholic.
 
The fact is the lack of a name on the Dyptichs does not preclude intercommunion. And that was certainly the case at the time, traveling Latins were communed all across the East up until that episode and in some places much later, until the crusades at least. That was the reason for the Latin parishes in Constantinople, their connection with Rome was through the Patriarch.
As Bishop Kallistos Ware asserts (quoted by brother Isa):
The Diptychs are a visible sign of the unity of the Church, and deliberately to omit a man’s name from them is tantamount to a declaration that one is not in communion with him.
Regardless of whether indiviudal Latins were able to commune, this was the beginning of a systematic and official declaration to the common Greek that the Latins were not orthodox. That definitely contributed to the rupture of union. So the Latins were not alone in the fault of the eventual Schism.
The question I have is: after the Bull was dropped on the altar, did Roman Catholic bishops all over western Europe stop communing Eastern Catholics traveling through? Could they tell a Greek speaking Antiochian from a Greek speaking Athenian or Alexandrian?
I don’t see why they should stop communing Eastern Catholics. As already often stated, the excommunication by Humbert and the legates were by their own initiative, not the Pope’s, and was directed at three specific hierarchs in the Eastern Church, not the Eastern Church as a whole.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Hi Marduk,

I believe that you are the only person I have ever met, either personally or (this way) in cyberspace, who carries this opinion.

That to me is amazing.
*
Michael*
I’ve become aware (through reading and personal experience with other Christians) of two viewpoints -
  1. the idea that the Pope is the be-all and end-all of all things in the Church. This would include the idea that the Pope is above an ecumenical Council. This idea is propagated by extremist Latins and polemical anti-Catholics.
  2. The idea that the Papacy is an office of service, not overlordship, who respects the prerogatives of his brother bishops.
I think you have never come across the second idea because you have often either 1) argued extremist Latins about the issue when you were Eastern Catholic or 2) that is all you hear from anti-Catholic polemicists in your Church presently.

If that is your experience, that is fine. I have met others of like mind as myself, however.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top