Catholic politicians must act against injustice and tyranny

[vern_humphrey]

Matt25:

You must introduce me sometime. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith says vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

Let’s try this, from the same source:

As John Paul II has taught in his Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae regarding the situation in which it is not possible to overturn or completely repeal a law allowing abortion which is already in force or coming up for a vote, «an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality».[20]
In this context, it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals. The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church’s social doctrine does not exhaust one’s responsibility towards the common good. Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives him this task, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.

Note the parts I bolded – a Catholic cannot vote for a pro-abortion politician.

 

[Matt25]

vern humphrey:

Let’s try this, from the same source:

Note the parts I bolded – a Catholic cannot vote for a pro-abortion politician.

I never said they could I said opposition to abortion on its own is not a political programme. Catholic teaching embraces many aspects of life and being and Catholic politicians and voters need to recall that. Remember the beginning of this thread where the Holy Father said-

“With integrity and wisdom, they must take action against any form of injustice and tyranny, against arbitrary domination by an individual or a political party and any intolerance They should dedicate themselves to the service of all with sincerity and fairness, indeed, with the charity and fortitude demanded by political life…”

 

[Matt25]

estesbob:

I hope this thread is not mving towards the old tired argument that Republicans don’t care about children once they are born…

I don’t really care much about which foreign political party foreigners choose to vote for. The policies of their governments are of legitimate interest to me.

 

[Matt25]

mlchance:

Out of date stats don’t change present reality. The top three recipients of U.S. foreign aid are, in descending order, Iraq, Israel, and then Egypt, as of 2004.

– Mark L. Chance.

That only really applies if you count the costs of US military salaries as foreign aid. And what about this answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=586921

Here are the top 16 recipients of U.S. foreign aid for 2005:

1. Israel 2.58 Billion
2. Egypt 1.84 Billion
3. Afganistan 0.98 Billion
4. Pakistan 0.70 Billion
5. Colombia 0.57 Billion
6. Sudan 0.50 Billion
7. Jordan 0.48 Billion
8. Uganda 0.25 Billion
9. Kenya 0.24 Billion
10. Ethiopia 0.19 Billion
11. South Africa 0.19 Billion
12. Peru 0.19 Billion
13. Indonesia 0.18 Billion
14. Bolivia 0.18 Billion
15. Nigeria 0.18 Billion
16. Zambia 0.18 Billion

source:
CRS Report for Congress:
Foreign Aid: An Introductory Overview of U.S.

Programs and Policy Updated January 19, 2005, page 14
shelby.senate.gov/legislation/ForeignAid.pdf

 

[vern_humphrey]

Matt25:

I never said they could I said opposition to abortion on its own is not a political programme. Catholic teaching embraces many aspects of life and being and Catholic politicians and voters need to recall that. Remember the beginning of this thread where the Holy Father said-

It sounds like you’re saying the opposite of what you claim.

Do you say there is some “programme” that would allow a Catholic to morally vote for a pro-abortion politician when there was a pro-life choice?

 

[Matt25]

vern humphrey:

It sounds like you’re saying the opposite of what you claim.

Do you say there is some “programme” that would allow a Catholic to morally vote for a pro-abortion politician when there was a pro-life choice?

Its not an issue which I have addressed at all.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Matt25:

Its not an issue which I have addressed at all.

Then what exactly** is** the point of saying things like

I said opposition to abortion on its own is not a political programme. Catholic teaching embraces many aspects of life and being and Catholic politicians and voters need to recall that. Remember the beginning of this thread where the Holy Father said-

 

[Matt25]

vern humphrey:

Then what exactly** is** the point of saying things like

That, like the Holy Father, I think Catholic politicians should act against all injustice and tyranny and not just against some injustice and tyranny. Especially they should not consider that some forms of oppression and tyranny are OK if “our guys” do them but wicked if “their guy’s” do them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Matt25:

That, like the Holy Father, I think Catholic politicians should act against all injustice and tyranny and not just against some injustice and tyranny. Especially they should not consider that some forms of oppression and tyranny are OK if “our guys” do them but wicked if “their guy’s” do them.

So if politicians don’t act against all forms of injustice in a “programme,” but only against the most egregious forms, then what?

 

[Matt25]

vern humphrey:

So if politicians don’t act against all forms of injustice in a “programme,” but only against the most egregious forms, then what?

What would you do?

 

[estesbob]

Matt25:

What would you do?

I wont vote for a politican that supports abortion. Once he passes that hurdle I consider his record as a whole.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Matt25:

What would you do?

First of all, I won’t vote for any pro-abortion politician.

Next, I will not support a party with a pro-abortion “programme.”

Then I look at the man – are his positions reasonable and likely to accomplish what he says? Finally, do I trust him?

 

[estesbob]

vern humphrey:

First of all, I won’t vote for any pro-abortion politician.

Next, I will not support a party with a pro-abortion “programme.”

Then I look at the man – are his positions reasonable and likely to accomplish what he says? Finally, do I trust him?

I agree wiith not supporting a Political party that supports abortion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

estesbob:

I agree wiith not supporting a Political party that supports abortion.

Why is why I say to my friends who identify themselves as Democrats, “Clean up your party. Get rid of the pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage planks, and get rid of the politicians who support them.”

 

[Matt25]

vern humphrey:

First of all, I won’t vote for any pro-abortion politician.

Next, I will not support a party with a pro-abortion “programme.”

Then I look at the man – are his positions reasonable and likely to accomplish what he says? Finally, do I trust him?

In this country Abortion is not a party issue. There is a free vote in Parliament so individuals vote according to their conscience and not the Party line. The quasi-Marxist George Galloway MP who had such fun at your Senators expense is anti-abortion. Many Conservative MP’s are pro-abortion. At election times we do not alway’s know the stance of a particular candidate. In elections for the Scottish and European Parliaments there are forms of Proportional Representation in use where we vote for a list which is likely to include both pro and anti names on it.

Elections in a multi-party democracy, which is now what we have in most of Europe, are more complicated to call and excercise prudential judgement over than in your two party system. Some of these issues were addressed by the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster prior to our last General Election

catholic-ew.org.uk/cn/05/050315a.htm

By welcoming Michael Howard’s call for a reduction in the time limit on abortion, are you not sending a covert message to Catholics to vote Conservative?

When I commended Mr Howard’s call, I also commended the Government on its initiatives to tackle debt and poverty. In neither case was I sending a covert message. My message to the political parties is an open one: please take these issues seriously when you draw up your manifestoes.

   *But are you at least saying that the Conservatives reflect the Church’s position on abortion? *

I have welcomed Mr Howard’s call for a reduction in the time limit on abortions as a step in the right direction, just as I have welcomed every such call from any politician, whatever their party. This is not a party-political issue: the question of abortion is usually left to a free vote in the Commons. Many MPs from the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties would agree with Mr Howard’s recent remarks, just as many MPs from all parties welcomed the Prime Minister’s call last year for the abortion law to be reviewed.

   None of our parties has a position on abortion which is adequate.

I am glad, however, that the issue is now in the public arena. There is a shift in public mood over abortion, which the political parties have begun to detect. People believe there are simply too many abortions, that they are too easily available, and that they occur far too late. I hope this issue can now begin to be addressed by our political leaders.

But I also hope that migrants and refugees do not become political footballs. I hope we can transform our jails into genuine places of redemption. I hope that care for our earth and its future will be high on the parties’ manifestoes.

I am not telling people to vote for this or that party. I am asking the parties to listen to the voice of the Church when they come to draw up their manifestoes. And I am asking voters to weigh these issues carefully in their consciences, because these are matters which deeply affect who we are as a society and what we exist for. I hope everyone will listen carefully.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Matt25:

In this country Abortion is not a party issue. There is a free vote in Parliament so individuals vote according to their conscience and not the Party line. The quasi-Marxist George Galloway MP who had such fun at your Senators expense is anti-abortion. Many Conservative MP’s are pro-abortion. At election times we do not alway’s know the stance of a particular candidate.

Why not? Aren’t you informed voters?

Matt25:

In elections for the Scottish and European Parliaments there are forms of Proportional Representation in use where we vote for a list which is likely to include both pro and anti names on it.

A form of voting first proposed at the American Society of Mathmatics, and shot down in flames.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Matt25:

Elections in a multi-party democracy, which is now what we have in most of Europe, are more complicated to call and excercise prudential judgement over than in your two party system. Some of these issues were addressed by the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster prior to our last General Election

catholic-ew.org.uk/cn/05/050315a.htm

We choose not to tie ourselves in these knots.