Catholic practicing Buddhist meditation?

[JimR-OCDS]

Some counsels from St. Teresa on prayer from The Way of Perfection chapters 28 and 29. What she calls the prayer of recollection … others call the prayer of simplicity … others call acquired contemplation. Others …

Note that it is something we can do … and she encourages it’s practice often.

Sorry for my copious underlining. For those with eyes to see.

Dave

Exactly what Prayer of Quiet entails.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

+JMJ+

Which again, as I said in another thread, does not say anything about promoting meditation and a good life first before practicing this form of “acquired contempation,” if it is at all. Unless you can show the link in it that says otherwise.

Or are you going to hide again behind the CAF ban on this topic when challenged, while you hypocritically promote this banned topic in other threads?

I’m not hiding anything and your accusation of me being a hypocrite is offensive and against CAF rules, not that it matters…

Jim

 

[DBT]

For those who are interested in better understanding distinctions in prayer states, what was described in the previous Way of Perfection quotes is acquired contemplation … something we can and should do.

And we can learn from St. Teresa that the infused prayer of quiet is just a rock throw away from what was just described, God willing. Important note: Experience will show that the acquired and infused may indeed be one continuous act … where the recollection of Teresa “flows” into the quiet she describes in chapters 30 and 31 of The Way of Perfection. Both “can” occur at the same time of prayer … with Quiet simply being a deeper expression of interior silence than the recollection that proceeded it. And this interior silence is nothing other than the “loving inflow of God” so wonderfully described by St. John of the Cross as the essence of contemplation.

Here are some key passages that shows this. Note the difference in emphasis though … the things we do in recollection (acquired) vs what God does in us in quiet (infused):
Way of Perfection Chapters 30 and 31:

1-The beginning of “pure contemplation: those who experience this prayer call it the prayer of quiet.

2-This prayer is something supernatural, something we cannot procure through our own effort. In it the soul enters into peace or, better, the Lord puts it at peace by His presence.

3-The state resembles an interior and exterior swoon.

4-A person feels the greatest delight in his body and a great satisfaction in his soul.

5-The faculties are still; they wouldn’t want to be busy; everything else seems to hinder them from loving. But they are not completely lost; they can think of who it is they are near, for two them are free (intellect and memory). The will is the one that is captive here.

6-They (the faculties) don’t want the body to move because it seems they would thereby lose that peace; thus they don’t dare stir.

7-(But) the best way to hold on to this favor is to understand clearly that we can neither bring it about nor remove it; we can only receive it with gratitude.

8-A gentle word from time to time is sufficient, as in the case of one who blows on a candle to enkindle it again when it begins to die out. But if the candle is burning, blowing on it (even using a “word) will in my opinion serve no other purpose than to put it out.

9-Thus when the will finds itself in this quiet, it shouldn’t pay any more attention to the intellect (our thoughts) than it would to a madman.

10-For the will knows that it is the Lord who is granting that favor. And the will rejoices in its enjoyment.

11-If the will goes out to fight with the intellect so as to give it a share of the experience, by drawing the intellect after itself (ie indulging thoughts), it cannot do so at all; it will be forced to let the milk fall from its mouth and lose that divine nourishment (the essence of St. John of the Cross’ passive night of sense).

12-(Thus) the will remains in its quietude for the intellect (wandering thoughts) will come and go. In this prayer the will is the ruler and the powerful one

13-A soul to whom God gives such pledges has a sign that He wants to give it a great deal; if not impeded through its own fault, it will advance very far.

Pairing these statements with those of the previous post will either make sense to the reader … or not. Depending on how God is leading the soul.

Dave

 

[Vouthon]

DBT

Thank you for these excellent posts! I must say, you are a wonderful expositor of Carmelite spirituality.

 

[Deus_tecum]

The above link is to a site which discusses a banned topic here on CAF.

A good source of Catholic information on meditation is the New Age blog at Women of Grace. The blog is written by secular Carmelite, Sue Brinkmann.

In the list on the right, under “New Age” you will see “Prayer/Meditation.” Or you can click on “Blog Index by Subject” and scan for the topics which interest you.

May Christ’s peace be with you.

In defense of the site I posted kyrie.com/inner/contemplative/index.htm it contains terminology that is banned here but a reading of the subject matter indicates it is about Catholic contemplative practices which are not banned. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Pax Vobiscum

 

[Viola_Incognita]

Prayer of Quiet is what it is and what I’m posting about.

And you said the following in another thread:

FYI, many people no longer use the term, “Centering Prayer,” because of the misunderstanding about it.
Many are now using it’s original name, “Quiet Prayer,” or “Prayer of Quiet.”

Are you one of those people? Changing the name does not change the nature of the thing.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

And a banned topic by any other name is still a banned topic. So, to get this thread back on the rails… In the OP’s second post on this thread, which some may have missed, he/she brought up a relevant point of discussion to the topic of Catholics practicing Buddhist meditation:

I recently read that by emptying the mind (which is the point of Buddhist meditation), demons can attack you. You will have no protection from evil.

Are there dangers in mind emptying? Why does the Church warn against such practices?

May Christ peace be with us.

 

[bben15]

Are there dangers in mind emptying? Why does the Church warn against such practices?

By emptying your mind, you get rid of all things, including God, for a while. Since you cleared God out of your head, you cleared the Holy Spirit out of your head. As a result, you have no protection against evil.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I’m very curious as to what exactly is “Buddhist” about the meditation.

That is exactly what my response was going to be.

If you are simply talking about quieting and emptying your mind that is a very Catholic tradition as well.

This issue with the OP is that “Buddhist” was attached to “meditation,” hence people will always take issue with it. There’s nothing wrong with a particular meditation; there’s everything wrong with association a particular meditation away from God.

 

[bcuster]

Be still and know that I am God.

Many Catholic Saints have taught us how to pray. St. Teresa of Avila, St, Ignatius, etc. Simply still your heart and mind and resting in the reality of God’s indwelling presence is an amazing way to begin an examination of conscience.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

By emptying your mind, you get rid of all things, including God, for a while. Since you cleared God out of your head, you cleared the Holy Spirit out of your head. As a result, you have no protection against evil.

Indeed. In fact, the traditional Catholic remedy to defeat vices is to crowd out the ideas and desires fostered by those sinful habits by the influx of new, holy ideas and desires. For example, watch this classic video of Ven. Fulton J. Sheen starting from the 16th minute mark, but the whole video is frankly very interesting in itself.

But let us go back to the OP. G.K. Chesterton made this observation about the differences between Buddhism and Christianity:

Even when I thought, with most other well-informed, though unscholarly, people, that Buddhism and Christianity were alike, there was one thing about them that always perplexed me; I mean the startling difference in their type of religious art. I do not mean in its technical style of representation, but in the things that it was manifestly meant to represent. No two ideals could be more opposite than a Christian saint in a Gothic cathedral and a Buddhist saint in a Chinese temple. The opposition exists at every point; but perhaps the shortest statement of it is that the Buddhist saint always has his eyes shut, while the Christian saint always has them very wide open. The Buddhist saint has a sleek and harmonious body, but his eyes are heavy and sealed with sleep. The mediaeval saint’s body is wasted to its crazy bones, but his eyes are frightfully alive. There cannot be any real community of spirit between forces that produced symbols so different as that. Granted that both images are extravagances, are perversions of the pure creed, it must be a real divergence which could produce such opposite extravagances. The Buddhist is looking with a peculiar intentness inwards. The Christian is staring with a frantic intentness outwards. If we follow that clue steadily we shall find some interesting things.

Orthodoxy, Chapter 8: The Romance of Orthodoxy

Now it may seem that G.K. Chesterton is wrong about this, because we have read so many recommendations from saints to look inward for God; indeed, Jesus Himself said:

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 17:21[/BIBLEDRB]

But that is the thing: we Christians look inside of us not to find ourselves but God. Indeed, when we are called to look at ourselves, we are often told so so we can distrust ourselves, and therefore we look for the One we can trust that is outside ourselves—indeed, outside of creation!—by looking inside ourselves.

 

[Pablopedro]

I recently read that by emptying the mind (which is the point of Buddhist meditation), demons can attack you. You will have no protection from evil.

Thank you all for your help.

Maybe I’ll try out the Prayer of Quiet. The Byzantine meditation is helpful, maybe I’ll stick with that too.

This strikes me as odd for a few reasons.

First off God does not dwell within your mind, He dwells within your soul.

Your guardian angel, The Holy Spirit, and Our Lady will not give you up to the enemy because you are not thinking about them or are sitting in quiet silence.

Silencing your mind is a wonderful way for The Holy Spirit to actually get a few words in and instruct us, especially when in a state of Sanctifying Grace.

Now if the Buddhist meditation is say focusing on how “all life is suffering” etc. You will quickly run into philosophies that very strongly contradict the life Christ has called us to live.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

This strikes me as odd for a few reasons.

First off God does not dwell within your mind, He dwells within your soul.

The margins of the mind and the soul are not that clear-cut, Pablopedro. The Greek-rootword for the name of the science of the mind, psychology, is psyche (soul) for a reason.

 

[Pablopedro]

+JMJ+

The margins of the mind and the soul are not that clear-cut, Pablopedro. The Greek-rootword for the name of the science of the mind, psychology, is psyche (soul) for a reason.

God dwells within when in a state of Sanctifying Grace independent of the workings of the mind. That is to say the Life of God is not removed nor can It be made manifest based on imaginings. Therefor it is necessary to have the soul and mind as separate words and concepts if only for us to be able to articulate this difference. The suggestion that God lives within ones mind tends to create the concept (intentionally or not) that God is dependent on the imaginings of the mind.

 

[nuntym]

• JMJ +

God dwells within when in a state of Sanctifying Grace independent of the workings of the mind. That is to say the Life of God is not removed nor can It be made manifest based on imaginings. Therefor it is necessary to have the soul and mind as separate words and concepts if only for us to be able to articulate this difference. The suggestion that God lives within ones mind tends to create the concept (intentionally or not) that God is dependent on the imaginings of the mind.

Just remember that there are sins of the mind too. Even if God does not dwell in the mind does not mean we can be cavalier with it. Or do you not remember the commandment to love the Lord with all your mind as well as with your whole soul?

 

[Pablopedro]

• JMJ +

Just remember that there are sins of the mind too. Even if God does not dwell in the mind does not mean we can be cavalier with it. Or do you not remember the commandment to love the Lord with all your mind as well as with your whole soul?

Absolutely, but are you not now talking about moral actions and acts of will? Thoughts can absolutely be sinful and can be righteous. However what I am referring to is that one need not imagine God’s presence in order for him to be present, nor can God be made manifest by simply imagining Him.

You also quoted a beautiful and important commandment, but note “all your mind as well as with your whole soul.” Again there was found a necessity to differentiate between the two.

 

[nuntym]

• JMJ +

Absolutely, but are you not now talking about moral actions and acts of will? Thoughts can absolutely be sinful and can be righteous. However what I am referring to is that one need not imagine God’s presence in order for him to be present, nor can God be made manifest by simply imagining Him.

You also quoted a beautiful and important commandment, but note “all your mind as well as with your whole soul.” Again there was found a necessity to differentiate between the two.

Whose margins, as I have said, are not as clearcut as you think. Scripture tells us that the soul and spirit can be divided (Hebrews 4:12); Mary also differentiated the soul and spirit in the Magnificat. Why would the mind and soul’s margins be more clearcut if Catholic thought has always thought of the mind as a faculty of the soul?

All of this is irrelevant to the discussion, actually. You equated “emptying of the mind” with “silencing of the mind”, which in fact are very different. Silencing the mind is a very integral part of Christian spirituality. Emptying the mind, however, is not.

 

[Pablopedro]

• JMJ +

Whose margins, as I have said, are not as clearcut as you think. Scripture tells us that the soul and spirit can be divided (Hebrews 4:12); Mary also differentiated the soul and spirit in the Magnificat. Why would the mind and soul’s margins be more clearcut if Catholic thought has always thought of the mind as a faculty of the soul?

All of this is irrelevant to the discussion, actually. You equated “emptying of the mind” with “silencing of the mind”, which in fact are very different. Silencing the mind is a very integral part of Christian spirituality. Emptying the mind, however, is not.

Conversation #1 I think you hit on the head and we can finally come to an agreement. “Mind as a faculty of the soul” thus the soul is something all together greater and the two must be differentiated in terms of language.

For part 2…color me confused. I would love to know how exactly the two are “very different” from each other because I’m clearly missing something important here.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

I personally recommend the practicing of Lectio Divina, by yourself and also with others, it includes prayerful reflection usually based on a passage of scripture, and includes time for an ‘emptying’ of personal perception and to give ‘space’ for the Holy Spirit to move and enlighten.

The practice comes with personal and official Papal recommendations and approvals.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Conversation #1 I think you hit on the head and we can finally come to an agreement. “Mind as a faculty of the soul” thus the soul is something all together greater and the two must be differentiated in terms of language.

Indeed! And on a sidenote, that is also the Catholic distinction between the “soul” and the “spirit”. Strictly speaking, there is no distinction between the soul and spirit, because what we have is a spiritual soul. Nevertheless, we can still identify a part of our spiritual soul that is deeply integrated to our physical body (the “soul”) which holds our emotions, passions, and mind, and the part that is not so integrated but is more in tune with the spiritual realm (the “spirit”) that holds our conscience and our ability to pray.

For part 2…color me confused. I would love to know how exactly the two are “very different” from each other because I’m clearly missing something important here.

Well, Eastern meditation is based on silencing the mind for its own sake; that’s why it’s commonly called “emptying” the mind. Western meditation, on the other hand, is all about focusing on one desire and idea: God. It does this by silencing all other thoughts and desires so one can concentrate on God. Acquired contemplation goes even further, in that it silences or ignores all thought (akin to the “emptying” of Eastern Meditation) but all to have a supreme desire for God that cannot be grasped by thought or imagination.

I personally recommend the practicing of Lectio Divina, by yourself and also with others, it includes prayerful reflection usually based on a passage of scripture, and includes time for an ‘emptying’ of personal perception and to give ‘space’ for the Holy Spirit to move and enlighten.

The practice comes with personal and official Papal recommendations and approvals.

Indeed! Lectio divina is something I can heartily recommend to even beginners of prayer, as it teaches one the ladders of prayer. As Guigo the Carthusian has said:

From this we may gather that reading without meditation is sterile, meditation without reading is liable to error, prayer without meditation is lukewarm, meditation without prayer is unfruitful, prayer when it is fervent wins contemplation, but to obtain it without prayer would be rare, even miraculous.

 

[Pablopedro]

+JMJ+

Well, Eastern meditation is based on silencing the mind for its own sake; that’s why it’s commonly called “emptying” the mind. Western meditation, on the other hand, is all about focusing on one desire and idea: God. It does this by silencing all other thoughts and desires so one can concentrate on God. Acquired contemplation goes even further, in that it silences or ignores all thought (akin to the “emptying” of Eastern Meditation) but all to have a supreme desire for God that cannot be grasped by thought or imagination.

[/INDENT]

Ah so as an earlier poster wisely pointed out, The primary difference is in intention. I do completely agree with that.