Catholic Schools and Non-Immunizing Families

[wjp984]

We went over this in my socila psychology class. It is the statistical analysis vs case studyh problem. One case study of something going worng stays in peoples minds even if the statists show that the case study was a rarity and there are so many benefits overall with the statistics showing the benefits.

I think of it this way. Statistically, you will have a greater chance of dieing from one of the horrible diseases that you can get inf you are not immunizised than you do of having problems with the vaccines. You will have a much greater chance of thinking if only I had got my child vaccinated… than the other side which is because of the vaccinations this happened, to whihc you can’t even prove to an exact fact.

 

[maryceleste]

wjp984:

We went over this in my socila psychology class. It is the statistical analysis vs case studyh problem. One case study of something going worng stays in peoples minds even if the statists show that the case study was a rarity and there are so many benefits overall with the statistics showing the benefits.

Maybe this description is true of some parents who are anti-vaccine… but, if so, I have yet to meet them. All the non-vaccinators I know (and the “delayed vaccinators,” and the “partial vaccinators”) are quite familiar with the statistics you mention. They just tend to believe that these statistics are taken from biased studies, and are presented in a biased manner – and, thus, that they don’t give an accurate picture of the situation.

What non-vaccinators do have in common, then, is a lack of faith in mainstream American medicine (as represented by the AMA, FDA, CDC, et al.). There are good historical and scientific reasons for such skepticism, IMO. But that’s a matter for another thread.

You will have a much greater chance of thinking if only I had got my child vaccinated… than the other side which is because of the vaccinations this happened, to whihc you can’t even prove to an exact fact.

This may perhaps be true if you only consider the obvious, immediate vaccine reactions, such as encephalitis from the MMR. But many parents are also concerned about less-obvious, long-term effects. For instance, we chose not to give our daughter the HiB vaccine, in part because we had seen fairly convincing research that linked this vaccine to an increased incidence of type 1 diabetes.

Type 1 diabetes is very serious, and our daughter already had a slightly increased risk of developing it, due to a family history of autoimmune conditions. On the other hand, her risk of catching HiB was much lower than average, since she was breastfed, we don’t smoke, and she wasn’t in daycare. After looking at all the research and statistics we could find, my husband and I talked, prayed, and came to the decision to skip the HiB.

Now, I don’t intend to start a big debate about the relative merits and risks of HiB – and I certainly respect other people’s opinions on that point. I just wanted to give an example of the sort of thinking that we put into all difficult decisions in our children’s health care. wjp984, I hope you can see that the decision not to vaccinate isn’t necessarily the naive, knee-jerk response that your psychology instructors made it out to be.

 

[mominne]

luvmykids:

Well, great, do you drink water? And what’s in the milk you drink? Or on the vegetables and fruit you eat?

I think I know where you are going with this question, and you probably won’t make the point you are trying to make! You asked this question of me earlier in the thread, so I will answer it!

We live more of a “natural” lifestyle in general. We do our best to cut down on the contaminents we consume. We drink filtered water. We buy our milk directly from an organic farmer. We eat as many organic fruit and vegetables as we can afford, particularly the ones that are more contaminated in their non-organic counterparts. Yes, I know we can’t eliminate our exposure to pesticides and pollutants, but we can reduce it!

We try to eat healthy foods and exercise so that we will have healthy immune systems that can deal with the things that we have no control over.

I think you will find that most non or partial vaccinators do take precautions in other areas as well.

Danielle

 

[mominne]

maryceleste:

Maybe this description is true of some parents who are anti-vaccine… but, if so, I have yet to meet them. All the non-vaccinators I know (and the “delayed vaccinators,” and the “partial vaccinators”) are quite familiar with the statistics you mention. They just tend to believe that these statistics are taken from biased studies, and are presented in a biased manner – and, thus, that they don’t give an accurate picture of the situation.

What non-vaccinators do have in common, then, is a lack of faith in mainstream American medicine (as represented by the AMA, FDA, CDC, et al.). There are good historical and scientific reasons for such skepticism, IMO. But that’s a matter for another thread.

This may perhaps be true if you only consider the obvious, immediate vaccine reactions, such as encephalitis from the MMR. But many parents are also concerned about less-obvious, long-term effects. For instance, we chose not to give our daughter the HiB vaccine, in part because we had seen fairly convincing research that linked this vaccine to an increased incidence of type 1 diabetes.

Type 1 diabetes is very serious, and our daughter already had a slightly increased risk of developing it, due to a family history of autoimmune conditions. On the other hand, her risk of catching HiB was much lower than average, since she was breastfed, we don’t smoke, and she wasn’t in daycare. After looking at all the research and statistics we could find, my husband and I talked, prayed, and came to the decision to skip the HiB.

Now, I don’t intend to start a big debate about the relative merits and risks of HiB – and I certainly respect other people’s opinions on that point. I just wanted to give an example of the sort of thinking that we put into all difficult decisions in our children’s health care. wjp984, I hope you can see that the decision not to vaccinate isn’t necessarily the naive, knee-jerk response that your psychology instructors made it out to be.

Excellent post! The concern over autoimmune disorders is one of the things that led me to think twice about what we were doing with vaccinations. I have a couple of strange disorders that started when I was very young (autoimmune thyroiditis and interstitial cystitis, which is theorized to be autoimmune, though not proven) My oldest, vaccinated son, suffers horrible with allergies and mild asthma. We have decided to delay or possibly even not vaccinate the younger two. So far, so good. They are much healthier than my oldest and myself! I have some clues that they may be predisposed to allergies, though, so I am very nervous about what to do about vaccinations. I know that it is not proven that vaccinations have anything to do with autoimmune disorders, but we are faced with no answers as to what IS causing these problems and playing detective. I’m sure there is no silver bullet answer and that the answer lies in a certain combination of factors. We are just trying to control what we have control over. It seems to me that God gave us a good immune system, so I’m leaning towards not tinkering with it. As I’ve already stated in this thread, I do think certain vaccinations are a good thing, in certain circumstances, but I don’t agree with the one size fits all aggressive vaccine schedule.

Danielle

 

[luvmykids]

mominne:

I think I know where you are going with this question, and you probably won’t make the point you are trying to make! You asked this question of me earlier in the thread, so I will answer it!

We live more of a “natural” lifestyle in general. We do our best to cut down on the contaminents we consume. We drink filtered water. We buy our milk directly from an organic farmer. We eat as many organic fruit and vegetables as we can afford, particularly the ones that are more contaminated in their non-organic counterparts. Yes, I know we can’t eliminate our exposure to pesticides and pollutants, but we can reduce it!

We try to eat healthy foods and exercise so that we will have healthy immune systems that can deal with the things that we have no control over.

I think you will find that most non or partial vaccinators do take precautions in other areas as well.

Danielle

Well, I am a vaccinator and I take precautions in the same areas you do. I buy organic grass fed butter and meat when I can, and purchase as much organic fruits, vegetables and other foods that I can. I also purchase only organic milk and we drink filtered water as well. Just so you don’t assume that, because we are vaccinating our children, doesn’t mean that we are not precautionary when it comes to our children, cause it works the other way too. I am precautionary, which is why I do what I think is best for our children, just as I’m sure anyone who vaccinates does, and I am being precautionary by vaccinating them. I don’t believe every study I read either.

 

[mominne]

luvmykids:

Well, I am a vaccinator and I take precautions in the same areas you do. I buy organic grass fed butter and meat when I can, and purchase as much organic fruits, vegetables and other foods that I can. I also purchase only organic milk and we drink filtered water as well. Just so you don’t assume that, because we are vaccinating our children, doesn’t mean that we are not precautionary when it comes to our children, cause it works the other way too. I am precautionary, which is why I do what I think is best for our children, just as I’m sure anyone who vaccinates does, and I am being precautionary by vaccinating them. I don’t believe every study I read either.

I never said you didn’t do these things! I know many people who do vaccinate and live a “natural” lifestyle. It just seemed that you were trying to play “gottcha” with that question. So I was just pointing out with non or partial vaccinators that you are likely to find people who are consistently cautious across the board.

 

[Eliza10]

anna1978:

Having seen 12 pupils in my Mennonite school in Uddel, Holland die, years ago when I was about 10, because none of us where immunised against brain-fever…seeing families go from 11 children down to 7 or 8 in the space of a few weeks, and attending a seemingly neverending line of funerals (adults died too)…I’m still grateful that my mom had me secretly (as it was against our religion to take preventative medication) immunised in Arnhem, a city 20 miles away. …

…Personally, I have ‘seen too much’ NOT to immunise, but for those who take that personal decision: do try to see it from the schools’ point of view.

Anna x

These were probably genetic - related deaths, not preventable by immunization, as was originally speculated. See this article:
smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2006/february/peoplefile.htm

Here is a quote:
“But most people don’t know that the Amish, and their spiritual cousins the Mennonites, experience an inordinately high incidence of certain genetic-based diseases, most of which affect very young children. Many of these afflictions are fatal or disabling, but some, if diagnosed and properly treated in time, can be managed, enabling the children to survive and lead productive lives.”

For example, many of the Amish were diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy, but Dr. D. Holmes Morton’s research on the Amish and Menonite people found no evidence of the previously diagnosed Cerebral Palsy, but instead found the afflicted children to have a very rare genetic disorder he found almost exclusively among these peoples.

Its interesting to note that the remedies Dr. Morton and his team came up with were based on immune system support and dietary changes - - the very things that the anti-immnization crowd has been advocating for years as the antidote, rather than immunizations.

 

[MariaG]

Princess_Abby:

Thank you very much for your thoughts.

Were you concerned about being pregnant around unvaccinated children in the home and/or waiting too long (even though just a few years of the child’s life) and increasing the chance your child could have exposure prior to vaccination? (Like pertussis, for instance.)

I will be a SAHM and have limited exposure to high-risk groups, other then perhaps my neice who will soon be in pre-school but I assume most of those kiddies are vaccinated (as she is).

We do want to vaccinate (at least most of them) but I just can’t imagine injecting my itty bitty baby with some of what I read goes into vaccines…yet I don’t want to leave her vulnerable…or an unborn sibling vulnerable should I get pregnant again soon…and I am never sure what to trust when I read about vaccines because it does seem to be panic-oriented (on both sides). My dilemma is more about WHEN to vaccinate and not IF, if that makes sense.

The first shot was pertussis. I found the risks to an infant unacceptable to wait. We put it off until 3 months and it was the only one he got, but he did get it at 3 months due to the danger of death and infants.

However, talk to your doctor. My husband is a firefighter/paramedic. Because of his job and the probability of bringing home nasty bugs is very high. You may be able to put off shots longer in your home. And if your doctor does not wish to work with you, I really recommend looking for a new one. If your doctor does not like the idea of a delayed schedule and not doing all at once, it will be very difficult to get unbiased information from them.

As for the disease you really need to worry about (assuming you’ve had chicken pox?) is rubella when pregnant. And the recommended age for MMR is 15 months. We put it off until 2. We felt the extra months of risk to pregnant women was outweighed by putting it off until 2, when a child’s immune system is more developed.

If you plan on sending your child to preschool, make sure to tell the doctor that and at what age since the vaccines need to be done before then.

My doc and nurse were great. They sat down with me and we made an individual shot schedule, delayed and only one at a time(sometimes two depending on the shot) for him. That way I could know whether we were “late” for shots. But we also had to be willing to revise it if it seemed like some shots had a stronger reaction than others.

I hope this helps.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[mom2boyz]

Could someone please point me to the researched and documented information that showed the decrease in polio before routine vaccines were administered? Is there any proof that this was not just a cyclical decline that can occur in the natural course of diseases and that the disease would not have naturally cycled upward again?

.

 

[mominne]

mom2boyz:

Could someone please point me to the researched and documented information that showed the decrease in polio before routine vaccines were administered? Is there any proof that this was not just a cyclical decline that can occur in the natural course of diseases and that the disease would not have naturally cycled upward again?

I don’t have time to try and find you what you’ve asked for, but maybe you could follow some of the links on the page from ICPA: icpa4kids.org/research/children/vac_polio.htm

While we’re asking for researched and documented information, I’d like to see a list of large scale, replicable studies that prove the safety of vaccines. I’d like to see studies in which children are followed for a number of years, as well. I’d also like to know who paid for the studies.

If we are going to systematically circumvent the process of natural immunity, shouldn’t the burden of proof be with the man-made solutions/substances?

Danielle

 

[mom2boyz]

After looking at the information on the site to which I was referred, I am very suspect of the information on that site. It looks like it pieced together some bits of information to support its own position.

 

[MooCowSteph]

mominne:

I don’t have time to try and find you what you’ve asked for, but maybe you could follow some of the links on the page from ICPA: icpa4kids.org/research/children/vac_polio.htm

While we’re asking for researched and documented information, I’d like to see a list of large scale, replicable studies that prove the safety of vaccines. I’d like to see studies in which children are followed for a number of years, as well. I’d also like to know who paid for the studies.

If we are going to systematically circumvent the process of natural immunity, shouldn’t the burden of proof be with the man-made solutions/substances?

Danielle

Yeah…I don’t see any big studies on the herizon. Another thing worth mentioning is that any studies done on vaccines fail to have a control group. With an entire population of vaccinated people, you cannot do adequate studies on side effects anf vaccine effectiveness. The Book The Vaccine Guide by Randall Neustaedter covers this. It also cover the questionable effectiveness of vaccines, including the polio vaccines mentioned by Rob’s Wife. If I have a chance to get out tomorrow I’ll get it from the library again and give some citations on the polio studies and the vaccine’s effectiveness.

 

[ladylady]

This is interesting, on the polio vaccine:
vaccinetruth.org/polio_vaccines.htm

 

[maryceleste]

ladylady:

This is interesting, on the polio vaccine:
vaccinetruth.org/polio_vaccines.htm

Thanks for the link. I haven’t been able to read the whole thing yet, but I noticed that it mentions Dr. Benjamin Sandler, who drastically reduced the incidence of polio in North Carolina in the late 1940’s, by giving parents strict instructions about their children’s diet and exercise. He wrote a book about his discovery; it’s available online. (The download is free, but you have to fill in a form for copyright reasons.)

If I were forced to feed my children a typical processed “kid food” diet (pasteurized milk and juice, white bread, Cheerios, goldfish crackers, chicken fingers, etc.), then I’d probably be more keen about getting them vaccinated. They wouldn’t have the same resistance to disease that they do on a diet of mostly fresh, whole, natural foods. To do a meaningful comparison of relative risks, we need to take these kinds of individual circumstances into account.

BTW, the first major polio outbreak in the US was in Brooklyn in 1916. If you’ve read the novel “A Tree Grows in Brooklyn,” you’ll remember the extreme poverty, overcrowding, and malnutrition of these (mostly Catholic) immigrants. The family’s diet consisted mainly of stale bread and potatoes, with tiny amounts of meat and eggs, and the occasional piece of fruit. Babies were often bottle-fed various unsuitable concoctions, so their mothers could go out to work. It’s amazing that any of them survived at all, and no wonder that polio and TB were rampant.

 

[DJJG]

Of course a catholic can’t use the religious excemption, this could only, ligitamently, be used if the catholic church forbade their members from being immunized. The Catholic Church has no official stand on you being immunized or not.

 

[mominne]

maryceleste:

If you’ve read the novel “A Tree Grows in Brooklyn,” you’ll remember the extreme poverty, overcrowding, and malnutrition of these (mostly Catholic) immigrants.

That is one of my all time favorite books! That is an interesting example to use as an illustration of conditions. Very creative!

 

[mominne]

mom2boyz:

After looking at the information on the site to which I was referred, I am very suspect of the information on that site. It looks like it pieced together some bits of information to support its own position.

Yes, it is probably pulled together to support their position. But it doesn’t mean you can’t check into their references. It would probably require going to a library. You asked for references.

 

[mom2boyz]

When I have the time I will try to look at the articles. I will have to see if my library has any access to these medical journal.

Basically what this comes down to is the nonvaccinating crowd believes they have valid reasons not to vaccinate and visa versa. There will be no middle ground between them.

I have personally seen many cases of H. Flu and meningicoccal meningitis. It is devastating to those who survive. I have seen pertussis and while that can be cured with antibiotics, it isn’t pretty especially if hospitalization is required. I’ve seen enough rotovirus to last me a lifetime and will be glad when they have a safe vaccine for this. I’ve seen what RSV does to premature infants. I’ve know people who didn’t survived from infections that were preventable through vaccines. The loved ones of these children and adults were devastated. This certainly colors my views for vaccination, because they aren’t just statistics. I’m sure this is a similar viewpoint that those who are against vaccinations because they believe the vaccine has cause harm to someone they know. I can understand that viewpoint. Frankly any more discussion on the subject is useless because each side has their viewpoint which they strongly believe is the right viewpoint.

But the fact of the matter is as Catholics we do not have a religious exemption at this time. You are certainly free to use other objections to vaccinations, but not religious if you are Roman Catholic.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

mom2boyz:

Basically what this comes down to is the nonvaccinating crowd believes they have valid reasons not to vaccinate and visa versa. There will be no middle ground between them.

All I can say is there IS middle ground for many in both “camps” and we don’t have to be at war with each other.

---

I also understand how personal experiences can make a huge difference in anyone’s view point.

 

[maryceleste]

mom2boyz:

But the fact of the matter is as Catholics we do not have a religious exemption at this time. You are certainly free to use other objections to vaccinations, but not religious if you are Roman Catholic.

“The fact of the matter” is rather more complex than you’re implying.

First of all, there’s a clear Catholic precedent for using our personal conscience to take a stand against something that the Church does not forbid. I’m speaking of conscientious objection - the refusal to bear arms. From the USCCB:

"In applying an evolving just war theory to the contemporary world, the person who is sincerely trying to form his conscience must judge whether or not the end achieved by a particular war or all-out war is proportionate, in any degree, to the devastation wrought by that war. On the basis of this judgment, he would justify either participation in or abstention from war. (…)

From the previously stated documents and traditions, it is clear that a Catholic (either in-service or out-of-service) can be a conscientious objector “because of religious training and belief.”

We are, therefore, concerned when we hear that some boards and military tribunals do not recognize a Catholic claim for military exemption by reasons of conscience. On the other hand, we are encouraged by recent court decisions and the actions of draft boards which uphold the primacy of conscience in this regard.

Secondly, as I posted before, there’s a clear legal precedent stating that Catholics can use the religious exemption to send their unvaccinated children to public schools – on the grounds of the primacy of conscience. Catholic schools are free to make up their own policies, but it would seem unjust to me if they were to deny a religious exemption to a Catholic student, while allowing it for a student of some other religion. (It’s not clear whether or not that was the case in the OP’s situation.)

Please note, I’m speaking here of those who oppose vaccines due to the belief that they’re unnecessary and damaging to our children’s health. The issue of aborted fetal tissue vaccines is a simpler one – here’s a good article on that subject, originally published by Human Life International.