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doomguy93
Guest
Yeah sadly that’s been the case for many years, Catholic schools not only not attracting Catholics but attracting non-Catholics or maybe even non-Christians. When I was going to Catholic private school in Kindergarten and 1st Grade (Seton’d for the rest of elementary and middle school due to moving away) we had kids who were definitely not Catholics (one kid was disgusted by and made fun of the concept of the Eucharist, eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ and all that, also he was a bully who thought I was uncool because I adored The Beatles at 6 years old). It was something that really got under my mother’s skin. In fact my Kindergarten teacher was, strangely, Jewish LOL. Certainly had to have been Catholic nonetheless, but her name was unmistakably 100% Jewish. Probably Jewish on her father’s side and Catholic on her mother’s. (I do remember she was not married at the time but was engaged as that was the very first time I’d ever heard of being “engaged!”)
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Thom18
Guest
Sadly, many Catholics are secularized and are perfectly okay with what is being done in public schools. It seems to be concerned protestant parents who see Catholic schools as a sort of save haven from secularism. Besides that, the idea of private education appeals to many parents because it can help their child’s college applications.
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jeannetherese
Guest
An interesting article. Several issues addressed, which caught my attention included:
the possibility of the faith being watered down, in order to attract non-Catholics, the challenge of acquiring Catholic leaders and instructors, and whether it is optimal to provide sacramental preparation in the classroom or in after-school programs.
I wonder if we might be able to strengthen the faith of our parents and children and attract converts through a strong faith program and sacramental preparation.
It would pave the way for children who are not Catholic to come into contact with Catholic teaching about the sacrament and to be assisting and perhaps, requesting spiritual communion at Mass. When they are older, they may find their way more easily into the faith through these experiences and teachings.
It might also be helpful to spend resources catechizing teachers so that they may better understand the teachings they are charged to impart.
About five years ago, I was visiting with a teacher at a local Catholic school, who told me that she had two non-Catholic children in her class at the start of the class and that they and their parents came into the Church over the course of the year.
Catholic schools may become an increasingly important part of the new evangelization. God grant that it may be so.
Amen.
the possibility of the faith being watered down, in order to attract non-Catholics, the challenge of acquiring Catholic leaders and instructors, and whether it is optimal to provide sacramental preparation in the classroom or in after-school programs.
I wonder if we might be able to strengthen the faith of our parents and children and attract converts through a strong faith program and sacramental preparation.
It would pave the way for children who are not Catholic to come into contact with Catholic teaching about the sacrament and to be assisting and perhaps, requesting spiritual communion at Mass. When they are older, they may find their way more easily into the faith through these experiences and teachings.
It might also be helpful to spend resources catechizing teachers so that they may better understand the teachings they are charged to impart.
About five years ago, I was visiting with a teacher at a local Catholic school, who told me that she had two non-Catholic children in her class at the start of the class and that they and their parents came into the Church over the course of the year.
Catholic schools may become an increasingly important part of the new evangelization. God grant that it may be so.
Amen.
K
katy
Guest
I had high hopes for the Catholic school my children could have attended. Two of them actually did for a couple of years. Then it became clear that Catholic truth was definitely not part of the package. It was, for us, a financial strain to send them, and for what? A relatively inexpensive private school where they would have to attend with the rest of the riff raff. Those “riff raff” were my friends and neighbors. That disbelief in what was supposed to be Catholic belief led to my eventually leaving the Church for about 10 years until I found a parish where priest and people believed in all that Catholic stuff and acted like it. (Mostly, occasionally stupendously not.) If you are going to have a Catholic school or parish, be firmly Catholic with no apologies-- just the Truth.
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pianistclare
Guest
While I’m not a fan of Catholic bashing, there are several reasons why the Catholic Schools are in the state they are in:
- decline (due to not appreciating) of the religious that worked for pennies in the schools
- Catholic Diocese’ feeling like their schools have to compete with the private schools
- Loss of the parish school model. Regional school will take anyone with a check that doesn’t bounce
- Pricing that excludes most practicing Catholic families. When Elementary school runs $8,000 per year when parents should be saving that $$ for college? No bueno.
- Not treating their employees well or paying competitively
- not enforcing the policy of enrolling Catholics first.
- Not hiring Catholic teachers and principals.
- No longer having the support of parishes and their pastors due to the Regional school model.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
In most of the parishes I’m familiar with, the problems are basically the same. The single biggest is a money problem. The parish does not get as much money in the collection as it used to, so tuition is not subsidized as much by the parish, so the Catholic students have to pay more. The school spends to much on “technology”, trying to keep up with public schools. Staff has always worked for less than their public counterparts but it’s harder to find those Catholics who will take less. And, as pianistclare pointed out, there are less nuns and brothers to help out.
Moving the sacraments out of school, as indicated in the article, won’t help attract Catholics. Why would the Catholics bother to spend their income on tuition when they aren’t getting a Catholic education?
A good solution would be for our property tax dollars to go to the school of our choice. And renters should be afforded the same with their landlord’s property taxes.
Moving the sacraments out of school, as indicated in the article, won’t help attract Catholics. Why would the Catholics bother to spend their income on tuition when they aren’t getting a Catholic education?
A good solution would be for our property tax dollars to go to the school of our choice. And renters should be afforded the same with their landlord’s property taxes.
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Cor_ad_Cor
Guest
Wow! Every time I read a post on these forums about Catholic Schools, I’m ever so grateful we’ve been blessed here to be abnormal, I guess. The things described, in this post and many others, have not been my experience with the schools of our Archdiocese in the least. Our Catholic Schools are amazing, and genuinely Catholic, too - in fact, there was just a story about the successes of our graduates, those in vocations, and the RCIA conversions that result from our schools in the diocesan paper recently.
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pianistclare
Guest
Yes to all of the above, except in this Archdiocese the Sacraments are never done in conjunction with the schools. Schools do not confect sacraments, parishes do. The Archbishop is FIRM on that. But the children in the schools have religion class every day, whereas at the parish level it’s once a week…
People who pay a ridiculous amount in tuition fail to tithe because they feel like they are paying too much in the first place But the school money is strictly separated from the parish money.
It’s a mess. Catholic schools just can’t compete with tax dollars, and frankly they shouldn’t. But parents demand more and more…I remember one parent advancing that if they didn’t have religion class each day, they could have Phy Ed more often.
The parents don’t put their kids there for the faith, they put them there because it’s private school, they still wear uniforms, and they are scared of having their children interact with other races or faiths. Period. Sounds ugly? It is. I’ve had some families that were truly devout and wonderful, big helpers, fine people. But there are plenty of snobs to go around. Too bad they have plenty of $$$$ because money talks.
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Sojourner003
Guest
I can’t argue with you on this. What you say is true.
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brian_custer
Guest
i put all of my children through catholic school; k-12
yes it was a sacrifice, financially
i justify it in my mind because public school & “ccd” would’ve been a far worse experience for my children
i think, in the end, it was the better decision
all of that being said, i agree w/ everything clare has posted…
yes it was a sacrifice, financially
i justify it in my mind because public school & “ccd” would’ve been a far worse experience for my children
i think, in the end, it was the better decision
all of that being said, i agree w/ everything clare has posted…
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Usige
Guest
As most note there are a number of reasons that catholic schools have gotten to this state. One of the major problems is that those who are most interested in a truly Catholic education for their children are essentially priced out or weeded out as the student being “academically unsuitable“.
I remember the principal of a local catholic elementary school that said catholic families have a “duty“ to support the schools by sending their children to catholic schools. When asked why they had entrance exams or how they supported catholic children with special needs he said they had to maintain a high academic rigor and so had to be selective in who they enrolled. When asked point blank how one was supposed to fulfill their "duty“ when the schools rejected them he said we should still financially contribute for the benefit of those who it’s a good fit. My left foot that I’ll be fulfilling that “duty“.
In my area most of the students that would have been in the parish school 50 years ago now homeschool their kids. If the local catholic school downplays the sacraments or puts catholic moral teaching in a box in order to maintain academic rigor, then why struggle to pay 30-40k+ for 5 kids? That cost basically would be my wife’s income, so rather than sending money to a school it is more cost effective to teach them at home where they have religious instruction everyday and woven into every subject.
We are blessed that we can do that, unfortunately there are many other catholic families that cannot afford the cost in lost wages or tuition. Unless we see a return of teaching vocations in huge numbers I don’t think we’ll see a return to authentic catholic education that is available to any catholic child regardless of their financial means or perceived intellect/aptitude. A Catholic school for Catholic children I would support, but I’m not supporting a prep school that wants my money, but not my kids.
I remember the principal of a local catholic elementary school that said catholic families have a “duty“ to support the schools by sending their children to catholic schools. When asked why they had entrance exams or how they supported catholic children with special needs he said they had to maintain a high academic rigor and so had to be selective in who they enrolled. When asked point blank how one was supposed to fulfill their "duty“ when the schools rejected them he said we should still financially contribute for the benefit of those who it’s a good fit. My left foot that I’ll be fulfilling that “duty“.
In my area most of the students that would have been in the parish school 50 years ago now homeschool their kids. If the local catholic school downplays the sacraments or puts catholic moral teaching in a box in order to maintain academic rigor, then why struggle to pay 30-40k+ for 5 kids? That cost basically would be my wife’s income, so rather than sending money to a school it is more cost effective to teach them at home where they have religious instruction everyday and woven into every subject.
We are blessed that we can do that, unfortunately there are many other catholic families that cannot afford the cost in lost wages or tuition. Unless we see a return of teaching vocations in huge numbers I don’t think we’ll see a return to authentic catholic education that is available to any catholic child regardless of their financial means or perceived intellect/aptitude. A Catholic school for Catholic children I would support, but I’m not supporting a prep school that wants my money, but not my kids.
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ARSpade
Guest
My parish’s school helps that by charging non-Catholics more for tuition.
Parish gets lowest and 1st dibs, then other parishes, and then non-Catholics last.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
My grandchildren attend a great Catholic grade school. All those who talk about the cost of providing it are exactly right. In this parish, though, they are fund-raising all the time, and in a good way. Most of those fund-raisers are for the school, and people do donate pretty generously. So, parents don’t even come close to paying the full cost in tuition. The last I knew, it was $500 per semester, which decreases with the number of kids you have in the school.
it’s interesting. A very high percentage of the parishioners are farmers or ranchers, either full-time or part time. They’re pretty generous people. Some of them have a lot of money, but you can’t tell it. Another parish of which I am aware has a grade school that goes only to the sixth grade, costs a lot and might fold. Those parishioners aren’t all high-earners, but a lot of them are. They just don’t seem to value Catholic education as much, don’t have the same sense of community, and live at a higher standard of living.
I think on a parish-by-parish basis, you support what you value.
it’s interesting. A very high percentage of the parishioners are farmers or ranchers, either full-time or part time. They’re pretty generous people. Some of them have a lot of money, but you can’t tell it. Another parish of which I am aware has a grade school that goes only to the sixth grade, costs a lot and might fold. Those parishioners aren’t all high-earners, but a lot of them are. They just don’t seem to value Catholic education as much, don’t have the same sense of community, and live at a higher standard of living.
I think on a parish-by-parish basis, you support what you value.
C
commenter
Guest
It is difficult to make a general statement about Catholic schools, because they vary so much from diocese to diocese, from school to school, and even from teacher to teacher, in terms of Catholic identity.
In our diocese the diocese itself, and also religious orders are pushing Common Core, though they add a little Catholicism to it. There is little attempt at classical education, or critical thinking. They push STREAM, which is very close to public school model. High schools constantly brag about how almost everyone graduates and goes to college, but no attention at all to Catholic Faith.
A number of parents and volunteers started an independent high school “in the Catholic tradition”. We offer daily Mass, prayer before each class, each teacher takes a promise to obey the Magisterium. We offer Latin, Philosophy as well as the other subjects usually taught. We don’t teach Social Studies, we teach History. We don’t have a survey course on World Religions, we teach Theology. We support Prolife. We have the most students at the March for Life, more than schools 20 times our size. We have the bishop’s personal permission, but no recognition from the diocesan education office.
I wish we had this kind of school when my kids were younger. They went to a school dominated by Peace and Justice, fairly relativistic, a few good teachers but the school itself was almost the same as a public school. They invited a prochoice politician to act as kind of a role model, describing what a politician does. This is the same school I graduated from decades ago. They lifted up the name, put another school under it in the same building, and pretend it is the same school. This is why mainstream Catholic schools are dying, at least in the liberal dioceses.
In our diocese the diocese itself, and also religious orders are pushing Common Core, though they add a little Catholicism to it. There is little attempt at classical education, or critical thinking. They push STREAM, which is very close to public school model. High schools constantly brag about how almost everyone graduates and goes to college, but no attention at all to Catholic Faith.
A number of parents and volunteers started an independent high school “in the Catholic tradition”. We offer daily Mass, prayer before each class, each teacher takes a promise to obey the Magisterium. We offer Latin, Philosophy as well as the other subjects usually taught. We don’t teach Social Studies, we teach History. We don’t have a survey course on World Religions, we teach Theology. We support Prolife. We have the most students at the March for Life, more than schools 20 times our size. We have the bishop’s personal permission, but no recognition from the diocesan education office.
I wish we had this kind of school when my kids were younger. They went to a school dominated by Peace and Justice, fairly relativistic, a few good teachers but the school itself was almost the same as a public school. They invited a prochoice politician to act as kind of a role model, describing what a politician does. This is the same school I graduated from decades ago. They lifted up the name, put another school under it in the same building, and pretend it is the same school. This is why mainstream Catholic schools are dying, at least in the liberal dioceses.
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Rau
Guest
I’d suggest that is a fairly parochial assessment (perhaps common throughout the US), but not a universal appraisal.
I would remark on two of your points as follows:
(2) Schools must aim to high academic results; religious content is necessary but not sufficient;
(5) Why would teachers take positions in Catholic school at sub-standard pay rates? If they willingly do so, are they noble, or are they sub-standard (?)
It’s certainly unfortunate that in the US system, governments accept your taxes but should you choose a non-government school, they are free to contribute nothing (no part of your taxes) to the cost of that child’s education. That’s not the case in some other jurisdictions.
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Rau
Guest
I can understand a particular Catholic school might be unable to well support a student with a particular difficulty, but screening out a child attending the local parish church etc on academic performance grounds (assuming it’s not itself a selective school) is reprehensible.
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pianistclare
Guest
Reprehensible or not fair to a child when they have no one on staff to work with them? We had several students who truly had severe learning disabilities. We had no person on staff qualified to help that child, and we were a Regional Catholic School, (not a parish school) that charged high tuition. Still, couldn’t afford to hire a person with those qualifications.
Regional Catholic schools do not receive support from parishes. They rely on tuition and because they are not affiliated with any parish, they do compete with the Private schools. The parents expect the latest technology, the best sports teams, their kids to excel on standardized testing, and fancy field trips. All pretty expensive. The teachers that teach in those schools, for the most part, are the MOTHERS of the kids. Women who are certified teachers, but want to watch closely what goes on in their child’s school and believe it’s a cost saver to all travel to the same place each day and come home together. They do it to be near their children, and to get a discount at times on Catholic school fees. When the cost is over $8000 per year for Catholic elementary school, these moms look for any shortcuts because they want Catholic ed so badly.
I had no idea that you were not in the US. Sorry if my response doesn’t fit your experience.
ETA: by training in my initial post, I meant catechetical training. I was the DRE at the school, and often the teachers would not put forth any effort to pay attention to Catholic in-services, or round table discussion, choosing to grade papers while others were speaking. Hard to pass on the faith when one does’t even feel the need to attend Sunday Mass.
Regional Catholic schools do not receive support from parishes. They rely on tuition and because they are not affiliated with any parish, they do compete with the Private schools. The parents expect the latest technology, the best sports teams, their kids to excel on standardized testing, and fancy field trips. All pretty expensive. The teachers that teach in those schools, for the most part, are the MOTHERS of the kids. Women who are certified teachers, but want to watch closely what goes on in their child’s school and believe it’s a cost saver to all travel to the same place each day and come home together. They do it to be near their children, and to get a discount at times on Catholic school fees. When the cost is over $8000 per year for Catholic elementary school, these moms look for any shortcuts because they want Catholic ed so badly.
I had no idea that you were not in the US. Sorry if my response doesn’t fit your experience.
ETA: by training in my initial post, I meant catechetical training. I was the DRE at the school, and often the teachers would not put forth any effort to pay attention to Catholic in-services, or round table discussion, choosing to grade papers while others were speaking. Hard to pass on the faith when one does’t even feel the need to attend Sunday Mass.
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tawny
Guest
You got that right, Clare. Or when they feel after reception of the Sacraments, they’ve graduated from the Church & Mass attendance in no longer necessary.
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mythbuster1
Guest
Catholic schools could be quite useful for evangelizing non-Catholics, but blasphemy should not be tolerated. Students who mock the Lord or the Church should be rebuked twice and expelled on the third offense.
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